Essential features of the apostle of God

[eanassir]

''why don't you stop relying on Islamic writings in order to discuss Jewish history and religion. It's tanamount to listening to gossip - it's second and third hand. Besides, it's written by people who rather than build their own religion or cultivate their own culture, have decided to co-op someone else's.''

The point being that if the Bible is plenary, and if Muslims accept it as Divinely inspired truth with Jesus as Messiah, then there is no further need for prophets.

Gopher, don't mix things.
Only the original Torah spoken by Moses and the prophets and the original Gospel spoken by Jesus were divinely inspired.

Jesus is the Messiah: i.e. the anointed by John Baptist; so why there is no further need for prophets; if people fall in idolatry and associating their Messiah with God -->then there is essential need to correct all this.

As promised in the Torah, all the revelations needed by mankind for salvation have been given in the Old & New Testaments.

First of all: what do you mean by "salvation"? The salvation will only be to man who follows the apostle concerning the devotion to God alone without associate; and the "salvation" will not be for anyone even to the idolater and the one that associates others with God. No salvation for such idolaters and associaters: and the repentance is only for the one who repents and asks forgiveness.

It is not that the Messiah came or Mohammed came that there is salvation: the salvation is for the man who follows them to devote to God alone; and not for the one that disobeys them and opposes God and His books and His apostles.

Moreover, nothing and none may prevent God from sending any apostle: Mohammed then the Mahdi: the Paraclite. The need is very necessary; because people contradicted the most important of the Commandments which the essence of God's religion.

In fact, the Book of Revelations deals with end time issues and the solutions for averting it or for salvation that may save one from it.

The Book of Revelation, in addition to being very ambiguous is not authentic; refer to its history and the opinion of Christian scholars about it.

On that basis, why on earth is another book of revelation needed??

It is needed to oppose the idolatry and warn people against the association with God and the enthusiasm and to correct the distortions that occurred in the past heavenly books.

Again, this defies logic but if this is what Muslims which to believe in, that's their right I suppose.

Not at all; this is the logic; and any man may choose whatever doctrine he likes, and it is up to God to deal with them according to their contradicting or believing in His Quran and His apostle Mohammed.

 

[Downhome_Woman]

''why don't you stop relying on Islamic writings in order to discuss Jewish history and religion. It's tanamount to listening to gossip - it's second and third hand. Besides, it's written by people who rather than build their own religion or cultivate their own culture, have decided to co-op someone else's.''




Gopher, don't mix things.
Only the original Torah spoken by Moses and the prophets and the original Gospel spoken by Jesus were divinely inspired.

Jesus is the Messiah: i.e. the anointed by John Baptist; so why there is no further need for prophets; if people fall in idolatry and associating their Messiah with God -->then there is essential need to correct all this.



First of all: what do you mean by "salvation"? The salvation will only be to man who follows the apostle concerning the devotion to God alone without associate; and the "salvation" will not be for anyone even to the idolater and the one that associates others with God. No salvation for such idolaters and associaters: and the repentance is only for the one who repents and asks forgiveness.

It is not that the Messiah came or Mohammed came that there is salvation: the salvation is for the man who follows them to devote to God alone; and not for the one that disobeys them and opposes God and His books and His apostles.

Moreover, nothing and none may prevent God from sending any apostle: Mohammed then the Mahdi: the Paraclite. The need is very necessary; because people contradicted the most important of the Commandments which the essence of God's religion.



The Book of Revelation, in addition to being very ambiguous is not authentic; refer to its history and the opinion of Christian scholars about it.



It is needed to oppose the idolatry and warn people against the association with God and the enthusiasm and to correct the distortions that occurred in the past heavenly books.



Not at all; this is the logic; and any man may choose whatever doctrine he likes, and it is up to God to deal with them according to their contradicting or believing in His Quran and His apostle Mohammed.

Einassir - your remark, "Only the original Torah spoken by Moses and the prophets and the original Gospel spoken by Jesus were divinely inspired.", perplexes me. How do you know? who are you , that you can state that G-d doesn't speak to others.
Pretty presumptuous Habibi, especially as all you do is regurgitate text from the on-line Q'ran. Can you deliver an original thought? Or are you just like the born again/dyed in the wool whatevers - only able to quote what you've been instructed? I'm curious to see if you can actually extrapolate from the Q'ran, something original.

 

[Downhome_Woman]

Einassir, your remark, "The salvation will only be to man who follows the apostle concerning the devotion to God alone without associate; and the "salvation" will not be for anyone even to the idolater and the one that associates others with God.
No salvation for such idolaters and associaters: and the repentance is only for the one who repents and asks forgiveness." just BEGS for a rebuttal.
Is your Allah SO shallow that he decrease that there is NO salvation for ANYONE who doesn't believe in him? He doesn't give a damn about those who go about their lives just doing right - regardless of what they spiritually believe? The only thing that matters to him is that they accept him as the almighty? PRETTY shallow deity you follow habibi.
Once more - I'd rather live in djimitude than 'dedicate' myself to something like that.

 

[Downhome_Woman]

The Torah or the Hebrew Bible was written by the priest Ezra following thier return from the captivity of Babylon; the original Torah which had been kept in the temple at Jerusalem had been torn up and burnt by Nabuchodonosor.

So when they returned to Palestine after the 70 years in the bondage of Nabuchodonosor, they had no Torah, then the Priest Ezra rewrote it for them.

<quran-ayat.com/conflict/index.htm#The_Torah_[or_Hebrew_Bible]_of_Ezra_>

The Hebrew Torah now available is this Torah of Ezra; the original Torah of God had been lost as have just been explained.

The Old Testament includes most of this Hebrew Torah, after passing into many translations to Greek and Lattin then to English and other languages.

Now, I tell you the punishment of the thief according to Jacob and his sons: the theif will be a slave to the one from whom he stole; i.e. if a thief steals something from a man, then the thief will be a slave to that man.

E.g. Joseph's aunt liked him very much; so she made a trick to keep Joseph with her: she accused him of stealing a statue from her, then she kept him with her. Actually, Joseph was a child and he took that statue to play with; and in fact that statue belonged to his mother. The story is known very well.

Another example: Josephe kept his brother Benjamin with him, by doing a similar trick : he put the gold measure of the king in the bag of Benjamin, then accused him of stealing it; and so he took his brother from the other brethren.

Because according to the king of Egypt, the punishment was to imprison the thief and not to eslave him. And you can read the story in the Book of Genesis.

In the Quran 12:
69-79

وَلَمَّا دَخَلُواْ عَلَى يُوسُفَ آوَى إِلَيْهِ أَخَاهُ قَالَ إِنِّي أَنَاْ أَخُوكَ فَلاَ تَبْتَئِسْ بِمَا كَانُواْ يَعْمَلُونَ . فَلَمَّا جَهَّزَهُم بِجَهَازِهِمْ جَعَلَ السِّقَايَةَ فِي رَحْلِ أَخِيهِ ثُمَّ أَذَّنَ مُؤَذِّنٌ أَيَّتُهَا الْعِيرُ إِنَّكُمْ لَسَارِقُونَ . قَالُواْ وَأَقْبَلُواْ عَلَيْهِم مَّاذَا تَفْقِدُونَ . قَالُواْ نَفْقِدُ صُوَاعَ الْمَلِكِ وَلِمَن جَاء بِهِ حِمْلُ بَعِيرٍ وَأَنَاْ بِهِ زَعِيمٌ . قَالُواْ تَاللّهِ لَقَدْ عَلِمْتُم مَّا جِئْنَا لِنُفْسِدَ فِي الأَرْضِ وَمَا كُنَّا سَارِقِينَ . قَالُواْ فَمَا جَزَآؤُهُ إِن كُنتُمْ كَاذِبِينَ . قَالُواْ جَزَآؤُهُ مَن وُجِدَ فِي رَحْلِهِ فَهُوَ جَزَاؤُهُ كَذَلِكَ نَجْزِي الظَّالِمِينَ . فَبَدَأَ بِأَوْعِيَتِهِمْ قَبْلَ وِعَاء أَخِيهِ ثُمَّ اسْتَخْرَجَهَا مِن وِعَاء أَخِيهِ كَذَلِكَ كِدْنَا لِيُوسُفَ مَا كَانَ لِيَأْخُذَ أَخَاهُ فِي دِينِ الْمَلِكِ إِلاَّ أَن يَشَاء اللّهُ نَرْفَعُ دَرَجَاتٍ مِّن نَّشَاء وَفَوْقَ كُلِّ ذِي عِلْمٍ عَلِيمٌ . قَالُواْ إِن يَسْرِقْ فَقَدْ سَرَقَ أَخٌ لَّهُ مِن قَبْلُ فَأَسَرَّهَا يُوسُفُ فِي نَفْسِهِ وَلَمْ يُبْدِهَا لَهُمْ قَالَ أَنتُمْ شَرٌّ مَّكَانًا وَاللّهُ أَعْلَمْ بِمَا تَصِفُونَ . قَالُواْ يَا أَيُّهَا الْعَزِيزُ إِنَّ لَهُ أَبًا شَيْخًا كَبِيرًا فَخُذْ أَحَدَنَا مَكَانَهُ إِنَّا نَرَاكَ مِنَ الْمُحْسِنِينَ . قَالَ مَعَاذَ اللّهِ أَن نَّأْخُذَ إِلاَّ مَن وَجَدْنَا مَتَاعَنَا عِندَهُ إِنَّـآ إِذًا لَّظَالِمُونَ​

The explanation:
(And when they went in before Joseph, he received his brother [Benjamin] privately and said: "Truly I am your brother; so grieve not over their past doing."

Then, when he had provided them with their provision, he put the [gold] drinking-cup [of the king] in the saddle-bag of his brother [Benjamin], then a crier cried: "O men in the caravan, you are thieves."

They said, turning towards them: "What is it that you miss?"

They said: "We have missed the king's cup, and he who brings it shall have a camel-load, and I [said Joseph] guaranty it."

[Joseph's brothers] said: "By God! you know well that we come not [here] to make mischief in the land, nor did we steal before."

[The king's pages] said: "And what shall be the penalty for it, if you prove liars?"

They said: "The penalty thereof is he in whose bag [the cup] is found – he shall be [a slave as] the penalty thereof; thus do we reward wrong-doers."

Then he began [the search] with their sacks before his brother's sack, then he brought it out of his brother's sack.

Thus did We contrive for Joseph; he could not have taken his brother according to the king's law [which decides the prison for the thief] unless God willed.

We raise by ranks [anyone] whom We will, and above everyone with knowledge there is the All-Knowing [Lord.]

They said: "In case he has stolen now, a brother of his own had stolen before!" [They meant by that the story of Joseph when he was accused by stealing the statue]

Joseph kept it secret within himself and did not disclose it to them; he said: "You are the worst in case you have power!" But God knows best the truth of what you allege."

They said: "O exalted prince, he has a very old father [Jacob], so take one of us in his stead; [for] we see that you are pious."

[Joseph] said: "I seek refuge in God that we should take anyone save whom we find our property with. Otherwise we are wrong-doers.")​

While Ezra lived in Babylon and the law of Babylon said that the theif who steals a cow, let him give four cows; so he wrote that in his Torah, while the original statement in the original Torah was like the statement in the Quran: to cut off the hand of the thief; but Satan came to Ezra and said to him: this is very cruel for the poor thief; let us make it the thief who steals one cow let him give 4 cows.

But they did not know that the punishment of the thief by cutting off his hand is to prevent any thief from stealing; moreover, if the thief steals one cow, how can he pay 4 cows? – Abu abd-Allah said.

Oh good grief - I got it! You're talking about Jewish Torah and Jewish history - but you're doing it based on Muslim interpretation.
Habibi - stop being afraid to actually go to Jewish sources. If you want to view the history, you should actually go to the people whose history you're discussing. Do that and I might start taking you seriously.
I might recommend "Jewish Literacy', by Rabbi Joseph Telushkin. It's a good basic guide to the Jewish faith and history. Because come on seriously, what you've been doing? You've been viewing the history of the Jews by your Prophet - who NEVER experienced it - he only heard about it! It's like me re-writing 'Gone With The Wind', to give it the ending that I think is better.
When it comes to Torah? sorry Habibi - go to the source - not your Q'ran.

 

[gopher]

''nothing and none may prevent God from sending any apostle''


But the Bible does not indicate that anyone else was going to be sent as it did in the Old Testament with regard to those in the New Testament.

 

[eanassir]

''nothing and none may prevent God from sending any apostle''

But the Bible does not indicate that anyone else was going to be sent as it did in the Old Testament with regard to those in the New Testament.

gopher,
Jesus said that if he does not go to his Lord, the Paraclite or the Comforter will not come to you, and "if I go, I shall send him to you: who will tell you all that I cannot tell you now: if I tell you now, you will not understand, but when that spirit of truth will come, he shall tell you about; and he will not speak from his own: he speaks only what he hears; and he shall rebuke the world of sin ...etc."

Here it is in the Gospel according to John 16: 7 -13

"7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him to you. ​

8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

12 I have yet many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now.

13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come." ​

Moreover, the OT includes the prophecy of a great prophet coming out of their brethren.

<quran-ayat.com/conflict/english2.htm#In_The_Last_Days_>​

 

[eanassir]

Einassir - your remark, "Only the original Torah spoken by Moses and the prophets and the original Gospel spoken by Jesus were divinely inspired.", perplexes me.

How do you know? who are you , that you can state that G-d doesn't speak to others.

Pretty presumptuous Habibi, especially as all you do is regurgitate text from the on-line Q'ran. Can you deliver an original thought? Or are you just like the born again/dyed in the wool whatevers - only able to quote what you've been instructed? I'm curious to see if you can actually extrapolate from the Q'ran, something original.

Woman,
your objection is refused; and all your shouting and insisting will not avail anything against the truth.

 

[Downhome_Woman]

Woman,
your objection is refused; and all your shouting and insisting will not avail anything against the truth.

Oh Habibi, I address you as friend and yet you dismiss me as 'woman'. I never shouted and I never insisted, all I did was rebut your statement. And all you can do is respond like this? You never addressed anything I said. Why? Is it because I'm 'just' a woman? Very sad.
I implore you. If you are going to discuss Jewish - Hebrew history and theology, then you need to find yourself someone who actually knows it. You should not be relying on the writings of people who have decided to interpret it in ways that suit their means.
But then again sadly, maybe that's what you are content to have. Something that makes you feel good, ass opposed to what is correct.

 

[Spade]

My Xmas gift re: the Debate.
http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/1008/did-medieval-scholars-argue-over-how-many-angels-could-dance-on-the-head-of-a-pin

 

[Dexter Sinister]

Something that makes you feel good, ass opposed to what is correct.

Ass opposed to what is correct? Best typo I've seen in ages. Thanks for the laugh, that's a truly great one. :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

Apropos of which, my father always said it takes a first class mind to make a first class error like that, and he would know, he taught undergraduates for 40 years. You sure it wasn't a Freudian slip?

 

[AnnaG]

roflmao

 

[Downhome_Woman]

Must have been a Freudian thing!I usually proof before I send and while the odd mistake slips through, this one was too bad!LOL!!!

 

[eanassir]

Darwin, Freud and Marx do not belong to Moses' party; they belong to Korah's party: the adversary of Moses.
Korah also claimed the science and knowledge. :lol:

It is we who defend Moses and Jesus, not are these atheists; it is we who give testimony to Moses, Jesus and Mohammed in spite of the disbelievers.

The Disagreement of the

 

[Downhome_Woman]

Darwin, Freud and Marx do not belong to Moses' party; they belong to Korah's party: the adversary of Moses.
Korah also claimed the science and knowledge. :lol:

It is we who defend Moses and Jesus, not are these atheists; it is we who give testimony to Moses, Jesus and Mohammed in spite of the disbelievers.

The Disagreement of the

I went back to my Bible and checked - no where does it say that Korah 'claimed the science and knowledge'. It just says that he disagreed with Moses and wanted more for he and his family than was given. I might suggest that you stop relying Islamic interpretations of the Bible and Torah and actually read the Bible and the Torah. all those stories in the Koran regarding Moses, the Patriarchs, Jesus? Borrowed - second hand - not belonging to Arabs or Islam. Misappropriated and misunderstood by another culture - stolen, like a CooCoo bird steals the nest and the eggs of another bird. Oh - and just because your mentor Mohammed-Ali Hassan Al-Hilly says something doesn't make it true.
Oh - since you have issues with Darwin, then you must also have issues with Al-Jahiz - after all, he was an early proponent of evolution!

 

[eanassir]

I went back to my Bible and checked - no where does it say that Korah 'claimed the science and knowledge'. It just says that he disagreed with Moses and wanted more for he and his family than was given. I might suggest that you stop relying Islamic interpretations of the Bible and Torah and actually read the Bible and the Torah. all those stories in the Koran regarding Moses, the Patriarchs, Jesus? Borrowed - second hand - not belonging to Arabs or Islam. Misappropriated and misunderstood by another culture - stolen, like a CooCoo bird steals the nest and the eggs of another bird. Oh - and just because your mentor Mohammed-Ali Hassan Al-Hilly says something doesn't make it true.
Oh - since you have issues with Darwin, then you must also have issues with Al-Jahiz - after all, he was an early proponent of evolution!

Downhome_Woman,

Because you went back to your Bible and checked: tell us how could Korah obtain his wealth and they were in the desert of Sinai?

And you said: "he disagreed with Moses and wanted more for he and his family than was given." ; so what was that "he disagreed with Moses"? and what is that he "wanted more for he and his family than was given."?

 

[AndyF]

The only thing you need to reconcile is if Mohamed attributes divinity to Jesus, then why did he not become a prophet of Jesus or Christian rather than start the Muslim religion.

I can site specific sura and Ayat where he realizes just that.

Secondly, a devotion to God manifests through devotion of neighbor. If one is capable of convincing the world that all they need to do is devote to God and not neighbor, then the value of man becomes nil. He becomes an aware thing, not an aware being, and he now becomes an unresistable target for anyone with a vendetta. Charity and fraternal love no longer has Divine meaning.

This is one of the most easiest tricks of Satan we can unmask, and that is whenever there is an implied separation of man with God and when the binding infusion of love between them is taught not to exist.

Andy

 

[Cliffy]

The only thing you need to reconcile is if Mohamed attributes divinity to Jesus, then why did he not become a prophet of Jesus or Christian rather than start the Muslim religion.

I can site specific sura and Ayat where he implies just that.

Andy

Now that I would like to see. It would blow Islam out of the water.

 

[eanassir]

The only thing you need to reconcile is if Mohamed attributes divinity to Jesus, then why did he not become a prophet of Jesus or Christian rather than start the Muslim religion.

Who sent Noah, Abraham, and all the rest of the prophets and apostles? Is it Jesus who sent them, or it is God Who sent these prophets and apostles?

Moreover, who sent Jesus? Because no apostle is greater than the one who sends him, neither is the servant greater than his Lord.

So Mohammed, like Jesus and Moses, was sent to people from God the Lord of the heavens and the earth: the Creator.

And Mohammed did never say that Jesus was devine; but the Quran affirmed that Jesus was the apostle and servant of God like Mohammed and all the rest of the apostles and prophets to guide people to God alone without associate or equal.

Secondly, a devotion to God manifests through devotion of neighbor. ... Charity and fraternal love no longer has Divine meaning.

You have to differentiate between God the Almighty and between others like people and your neighbors; so man should love his neighbors and do charity to the poor: but all that should be for the sake of God alone.

This is one of the most easiest tricks of Satan we can unmask, and that is whenever there is an implied separation of man with God and when the binding infusion of love between them is taught not to exist.
Andy

Satan wants to detract people from serving God alone, to encourage man to be enthusiastic about Jesus and the patron saints, so that man in this case will associate these righteous men with God Almighty in the worship and his worship will not then be exclusively pure to God alone; and Satan intends by that to let man lose completely in the afterlife.

 

[Dexter Sinister]

You assume without evidence that a whole lot of things are true. If they're not--and you cannot demonstrate that they are, they're just assumptions--your argument collapses into meaninglessness.

 

[eanassir]

You assume without evidence that a whole lot of things are true. If they're not--and you cannot demonstrate that they are, they're just assumptions--your argument collapses into meaninglessness.

My reply was to one enthusiastic about Jesus. This enthusiastic considered Jesus as the God Almighty, so he thought that Mohammed and all the rest of apostles should be the apostles of Jesus; because to him there is no difference between Jesus and God.Some enthusiastic about Imam Ali said similar thing about the adversary of this Imam: I am surprised why he (Ali) created them!?However, there is much evidence, but you don't consider, and return once again to the start.Today, I and one of my collegues contemplated about a high date-palm and marvelled how great is God Who made the water absorbed from its deep roots to reach the top of about 6 meters high, all this among a mass of woody stem.Then I said to him: See that huge Eucaleptus tree with its innumerable leaves: each leave is a factory of synthesizing many substances using the sun rays and others for this purpose, and how many cells are included; and I said to him: Do you think the atheism is any wise way of thinking; and he agreed with me; Also about the might of God and His wisdom concerning the people inhabiting the planets with their different distances from the sun and their proper axes variations according to their distances.I told him the Quran includes many ayat about this, he said; how is that, and I recited to him some ayat, and he marvelled and we said: Glory be to God the Creator.Retorting the Atheist Retorting the Atheist