Dozens of Afghan civilians die in air raids: residents

BitWhys

what green dots?
Apr 5, 2006
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behaviorists don't call it "rationalization" for nothing. besides, lack of emotion in decision making is a recognized symptom of sociopathy. If I ever see a day when I believe bombing civilians is a matter of common sense I hope somebody has the good sense to shoot me.
 

Zzarchov

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Aug 28, 2006
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yes, its called "rationalization" because it allows you to behave "rationally".

If you don't, then you get into bizarre contradictions. If we encourage hostage taking as the most viable military target, then we are actively causing people to get taken hostage and murdered.

So I repeat, If the Aryan nation came into your area, set up roadblocks and started declaring it their own town and dispatching their own version of justice at gun point, would you want the police to ignore this since civilians could get hit in the crossfire?

If you say "No they should intervene" aren't you just showing lack of empathy for Afghan civilians by rationalizing that they are somehow less deserving of protection based on imaginary lines in the dirt? Is that not too abstract rationalization that dehumanises people? Equating them as 'foreigners' instead of 'people' and thus no longer your concern?
 

MikeyDB

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Jun 9, 2006
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I'm not aware that Canada or anyone else for that matter declared war on Afghanistan....

Please post the figures for Afghanis killed in bombing raids and "war" violence before the U.S. needed a target for its revenge for 9/11....

I'm sure Usama Bin Laden is getting quite a chuckle out of it all....
 

BitWhys

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Apr 5, 2006
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rationalize

One entry found for rationalize.
Main Entry: ra·tio·nal·ize
Pronunciation: 'rash-n&-"lIz, 'ra-sh&-n&-"lIz
Function: verb
Inflected Form(s): -ized; -iz·ing
transitive verb

1 : to bring into accord with reason or cause something to seem reasonable: as a : to substitute a natural for a supernatural explanation of <rationalize a myth> b : to attribute (one's actions) to rational and creditable motives without analysis of true and especially unconscious motives <rationalized his dislike of his brother>; broadly : to create an excuse or more attractive explanation for <rationalize the problem>
 

Zzarchov

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That still doesn't change the fact that you are rationalizing why not to help out Afghanistani Civilians as "foriegners" instead of people.

No matter what you do in a situation such as this, you are rationalizing why to let someone die. In such a case, you can only try to cause the least avoidable death.

No matter how much you say otherwise.
 

BitWhys

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That still doesn't change the fact that you are rationalizing why not to help out Afghanistani Civilians as "foriegners" instead of people...

oh bull. you're the one insisting we're blowing them up for their own good. if my disagreeing with that means what you say it means I can only say that's an awfully narrow definition of "help" you're working with.
 
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thomaska

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May 24, 2006
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Great Satan
Meanwhile, the Taliban continues to execute vicious, nasty, mean spirited South Korean missionaries, and the main stream media, and most of the world yawns...
 

DurkaDurka

Internet Lawyer
Mar 15, 2006
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Meanwhile, the Taliban continues to execute vicious, nasty, mean spirited South Korean missionaries, and the main stream media, and most of the world yawns...

I feel sorry that the Koreans are in such a positions... but. What the hell are they doing there to begin with? It defies logic in my opinion to set up a missionary in a country that is not exactly friendly to Christians or people in general. Civilians who like to play games in war zones shouldn't be given much sympathy in my opinion.
 

thomaska

Council Member
May 24, 2006
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Great Satan
I feel sorry that the Koreans are in such a positions... but. What the hell are they doing there to begin with? It defies logic in my opinion to set up a missionary in a country that is not exactly friendly to Christians or people in general. Civilians who like to play games in war zones shouldn't be given much sympathy in my opinion.

Well, I'm pretty sure they were there just trying to be nice, and do humanitarian work. Most of them are women also, but that won't stop the religion of peace...we should all know by now how they like their women: cowed, submissive, covered-up...and if they can't accomplish that, "dead" works for them just fine too.

Or who knows? Maybe they were there "lazing" targets for the Air Force.
 

BitWhys

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speaking of taking hostages I read a while back Afghanistan finally almost qualifies for HIPC relief out of the IMF. praise the lord.
 

mabudon

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What the hell are they doing there to begin with? It defies logic in my opinion to set up a missionary in a country that is not exactly friendly to Christians or people in general.

LMFAO holy COW that is funny somehows- why not question the capitalist "missionaries" from countries such as Canada and the US??

I mean, all these "missionaries" want to do is make life better for the average Afghani- the Korean Christians by sharing the knowledge of the one true saviour as experienced by them, the US Canada and Britain by sharing our "correct" cultural views and "democratic" institutions

How could one sem so ridiculous and one seem so realistic??

As a final note, I bet none o' them wacky christian missionaries dropped ANY high-impact munitions from 30,000 feet....

As wacky as they are, I'd go so far as to say that the christian missionaries are more interested in doing more actual good works there than ANY member of the coalition of the dwindling (country-wise- NOT individual soldier/person wise)
 

Zzarchov

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Aug 28, 2006
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oh bull. you're the one insisting we're blowing them up for their own good. if my disagreeing with that means what you say it means I can only say that's an awfully narrow definition of "help" you're working with.

Actually Im saying sometimes you can't let people get murdered because someone takes hostages, but thats a matter of personal morals, but please answer the following:

If the same problem was going on In Canada, a band of Aryan Nation Vigilantes taking over towns and dispensing their own version of justice at gunpoint. Would you say we should just back away and leave Canadian Citizens to fend for themselves?

Yes or No?
 

BitWhys

what green dots?
Apr 5, 2006
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If the same problem was going on In Canada, a band of Aryan Nation Vigilantes taking over towns and dispensing their own version of justice at gunpoint. Would you say we should just back away and leave Canadian Citizens to fend for themselves?

Yes or No?

why don't you ask me if I'd sanction bombing civilians?
 
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BitWhys

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Actually Im saying sometimes you can't let people get murdered because someone takes hostages, but thats a matter of personal morals,...

are you?

Again pointing out:

For fighting in Civilian Areas, the Taliban forces are the ones responsible for the Civilian deaths under the rules of war.

It is not the responsibility of NATO to avoid hitting human shields, its the responsibility of the Taliban not to use them and to not stage combat operations from civilian areas.

well you certainly have a peculiar way of saying it. and I'd hardly call people fleeing the area "hostages".
 

earth_as_one

Time Out
Jan 5, 2006
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Basically we bomb villages before sending in our troops. The main reason for this tactic is to reduce our casualties. But a side effect of this tactic is high civilian casualties. As a result we probably create new insurgents faster than we kill them.

UPI - Jul 25, 2007

...According to what little information is available, U.S. and NATO-led forces appear to be responsible for a growing number of civilian deaths. Despite its reluctance to quantify the situation, the United Nations publicly reported on June 2 that its data indicates "the number of (civilian) deaths attributed to pro-government forces marginally exceeds that caused by anti-government forces."

U.S. and NATO officials stress that insurgent fighters hide among the civilian population and use them as human shields, but the fact remains that whatever the causes, this rising civilian death rate undermines the strategic goals of the United States and its allies.

The growing perception that Western forces are unconcerned with, and a direct threat to, the safety of civilians makes the Afghan population less inclined to side with the West against the Taliban. Also, Afghans will be less likely to support a government seen as aiding or cooperating with Western forces.
Hence, the recent statements by President Hamid Karzai reprimanding U.S. and NATO forces for their apparent disregard for Afghan civilian life. Tensions over the issue not only threaten the relationship between the Afghan and coalition governments, but among coalition members themselves as they debate an appropriate response to the mounting toll.

At the moment, U.S. and NATO forces seem unable or unwilling to adopt tactics less lethal to the civilian population. Expressions of regret and reiterations of respect by the military sound increasingly empty as U.S and NATO air strikes continue to attack residential buildings believed to contain Taliban insurgents, but that time after time are found to also house civilians.
An International Security Assistance Force spokeswoman was recently quoted as saying, "We are looking closely at our air operations, but it would not be something we would be looking to change at this point." She cited the limited number of troops available as a primary reason for maintaining the current role of air power in the conflict...


http://www.spacewar.com/reports/The_Afghan_Body_Count_999.html
 

earth_as_one

Time Out
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Meanwhile, the Taliban continues to execute vicious, nasty, mean spirited South Korean missionaries, and the main stream media, and most of the world yawns...

That story get more headlines than the daily loss of innocent life.

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Fervour and naivete lead 'missionaries' into harm's way

Jonathan Manthorpe, Vancouver Sun

Published: Friday, July 27, 2007
Christianity is a fiercely competitive business in South Korea, with evangelists vying to attract followers by demonstrating ever more outlandish feats of holiness.


Sending missionaries in large numbers to the world's most violent trouble spots is seen as a surefire way of filling the churches with admiring disciples.

These days, dispatching missionaries to Afghanistan and Iraq, into the jaws of militant Islam, is the ultimate demonstration of Christian fervour.

And the larger the army of followers, of course, the larger the spiritual and financial rewards.

It is a tried and true promotional technique that has produced a surge in popularity for Christianity since the Second World War. A recent survey by the Pew organization found 26.3 per cent of South Koreans say they are Christians, a proportion second only to the Philippines in Asia.

Most belong to fundamentalist protestant or evangelical Christian churches where the passion for missionary zeal has always been strong.

There are nearly 13,000 South Korean missionaries operating in about 160 countries.

In some popular missionary destinations, such as Africa, there are sometimes hundreds of South Korean missionaries in the same town. There are even reports that the competition among evangelists sometimes becomes so intense there have been fistfights over territory.

Only the United States with 46,000 missionaries abroad has a larger army of faith, but as a proportion of population the South Korean missionary force is much larger.

However, to call these people missionaries is not always accurate. Most are not bent on making converts, but are more like aid agency workers.

Indeed, the South Korean missionary operations are more like those Japanese television game shows where the prize goes to the contestant who takes the greatest humiliation and still comes up grinning.

The missionaries are frequently naive young people driven by an unfocused desire to do good, just like most of the 23 South Korean hostages taken by the Taliban on the road from Kabul to Kandahar in Afghanistan last week...

http://www.canada.com/topics/news/world/story.html?id=b88562b5-320a-4bae-8819-379baca41122
 

Unforgiven

Force majeure
May 28, 2007
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Meanwhile, the Taliban continues to execute vicious, nasty, mean spirited South Korean missionaries, and the main stream media, and most of the world yawns...

This is exactly it. Rational? It's war for crying out loud. Is there some unwritten rule that war is actually rational and should be justified each step of the way? That sounds like a nice sanitized version acceptable for tv viewing during prime time. War is, it seems to me or at least should be, the absolute lack of rational thought and reason. It's the last resort at the end of many attempts at rational thought and reason to find agreement through talk.

Self defeating in my opinion. In the final analysis once it comes to war, might makes right. As that is the case, then there should be no concern that innocent people are killed or injured. Simply there are no innocent people, all are victims, but none innocent.
 

Unforgiven

Force majeure
May 28, 2007
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So they give you double time for being both judge and jury?

If they did, then I could afford to pay attention. ;)

I just think this whole be carful not to hurt anyone and let's get all misty if we do sort of war, just lengthens the time it takes to resolve the conflict, kills and injures more in the end, leaving an opportunity for it to revert right back to square one, once the troops leave for home or the next deployment.

If war is nice and clean where no one but those who really really deserve to get killed or injured comes about, what's to end it?