Does God exist?
- Thread starter Kreskin
- Start date
If you provide some examples of these potentially non-randomizable events, and I'm sure some smart cookie here can come up with an adequate explanation that does not involve invisible cloud jockeys...
It is simply that there is nothing random. Everything is governed by the laws of the universe. Things only seem random and chaotic when we don't understand those laws and as of yet we don't understand them all.
Well, I am not talking about invisible cloud jockeys. This is not my idea of God. I'd laugh with you at a cloud jockey idea. Like I said, or tried to say, maybe I just didn't make myself too clear - God is the supreme intelligent and the life force, that is the basis for everything in this world. Everything that exists here is just a manifestation of that power, whatever the form of the manifestation might be.
Anthropomorphising the universe. It isn't intelligent. It does not have the attributes of humans. Awwww look, that light bulb is worried. lol
*In a patient voice :smile:* I don't mean the light bulbs! They are human-made inanimate things, and I am talking about what wasn't created by humans, and what has a life of its own.
On second thoughts, the light bulbs around here do look somewhat anxious...
On second thoughts, the light bulbs around here do look somewhat anxious...
Well this would be a preclusion of your notion of god then...for it too was created by humans...
The universe as we understand it, has also to be, for the greater part, a thing of human construct.
I reckon.
I reckon.
YouTube - The Most Gracious - Qur'an Recitation - Ar-Rahman
There are large waves, strong currents, and tides in the Mediterranean Sea and the Atlantic Ocean. Mediterranean Sea water enters the Atlantic by Gibraltar. But their temperature, salinity, and densities do not change, because of the barrier that separates them.
here
http://www.geocities.com/mzabgeo/redrose_nebula_rahman.jpg
There are large waves, strong currents, and tides in the Mediterranean Sea and the Atlantic Ocean. Mediterranean Sea water enters the Atlantic by Gibraltar. But their temperature, salinity, and densities do not change, because of the barrier that separates them.
here
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Other than 'natural' changes on our earth, weather, earthquakes, floods, etc., we 'decide'
everything that happens 'with us' in our lives, the flow of our lives is up to us, or others who
overpower us, and control us, BUT it is always decided by humans, there is no other thought
process but ours, and the animals around us, that is very obvious to me.
The one disturbing thought is that, we also have the power to make total peace on this earth,
but because of a few ,' that' will never happen, not only do the masses allow some invisible
entity to get into their heads, they also allow that belief to create hatred and death to others,
and judge one another, and we also allow a 'few' humans to control how we get along with
one another, and they keep us in a constant state of war, so, between the 'god' believers and the 'hateful few leaders in this world', the rest of us, who would like to live like 'real' earthlings,
and help and support each other, don't have a chance, we have to sit back and listen to all of this
gibberish by the religous and the threats by the leaders , and just shake our heads
in 'disbelief'.
Maybe some day in the future, 'my' people (eg. those who don't believe in any god, and also want to live in peace),can leave this earth and make a new life on a
different planet, and we can leave the religious to hate and judge each other, and also
the war monger leaders to bomb and kill each other, and we will 'do it right' somewhere
else, without them.
everything that happens 'with us' in our lives, the flow of our lives is up to us, or others who
overpower us, and control us, BUT it is always decided by humans, there is no other thought
process but ours, and the animals around us, that is very obvious to me.
The one disturbing thought is that, we also have the power to make total peace on this earth,
but because of a few ,' that' will never happen, not only do the masses allow some invisible
entity to get into their heads, they also allow that belief to create hatred and death to others,
and judge one another, and we also allow a 'few' humans to control how we get along with
one another, and they keep us in a constant state of war, so, between the 'god' believers and the 'hateful few leaders in this world', the rest of us, who would like to live like 'real' earthlings,
and help and support each other, don't have a chance, we have to sit back and listen to all of this
gibberish by the religous and the threats by the leaders , and just shake our heads
in 'disbelief'.
Maybe some day in the future, 'my' people (eg. those who don't believe in any god, and also want to live in peace),can leave this earth and make a new life on a
different planet, and we can leave the religious to hate and judge each other, and also
the war monger leaders to bomb and kill each other, and we will 'do it right' somewhere
else, without them.
My sentiments exactly. Ahmadabdalrhman's offering uniquely lame and shallow versions of the fallacious arguments from design and authority, even weaker than eanassir's. Religious belief, as I've said before, sure does cloud the mind.
Why not ship the war mongers to some distant planet, instead, and keep this beautiful one to you ands yours?
Sorry for the different format but some replies would not be as clear if the original question was not there to read. The ones afer "Reply" are my latest
Quoting MHz Darwinism doesn't allow for mammals to be the first life form so there was a jump of classes at one point, maybe even several. What was the last living animal to jump class?
You mean, when does a new class form. An animal doesn't jump from one class to another. It's a progression. And I have no idea what the last animal was, considering evolution is a recent discovery by humans. Why does that matter?
Reply Isn't variation the very same as what you are calling progression. Variations could go on forever without ever progressing to altering the basic body form.
Quote: If a soft animal dies in a mud-flow even the imprint of the soft tissues (like skin or feathers) would remain.
An imprint is not the same as a fossil. Fossilization is the reverse of ossification. Soft tissue doesn't ossify (isn't mineralized), so it can't fossilize either. Besides that, the preservation of soft tissues is very, very rare.
Reply the feathered dino is one example.
Quote: It is certainly not proof that links exist now is it...
Of course not. That was a useless comment.
Reply Mine or yours?
Quote: People witness volcanoes all the time, that is one way mountains are built.
Ahhhhh, and we can witness evolution, just not the end product. Mountains and new species, both take periods of time longer than a human generation.
Quote: Not according to the definition of species. Different species may be related but they cannot have offspring, if they can then they are the same species.
A horse and a donkey are two different species. The resulting offspring, mule or hinny, are not fertile. The domestic horse, and Przewalski's horses can mate, and the offspring will be fertile. Three different species, closely related. Two of them can produce a fertile offspring.
You don't really know what the definition of a species is...
Reply I posted the definition according to dictionary.com. Two separate species cannot reproduce. If they have a sterile child then they have failed to reproduce, that makes them different species if you follow that definition.
Quote: Call it 'a' cue then.
It's a cue.
Reply Couldn't we use 'clue'?
Quote: Virus change due to changes in bacteria, they do not change just for the sake of change.
Viruses change due to random errors in genetic replication. They are inert, they don't change except by errors in replication.
Reply Does the number of bacteria available for destruction effect the growth rate of the virus?
Quote: Why is that out of context, that is a very good indication that is the same number of bacteria around.
No it isn't. How do you come to that conclusion?
Reply If there are a lot of different bacteria types would that not mean the the number of virus that exist would also be about the very same number.
Quote: Ever hear of a solution called colloidal silver, it is very effective and you can produce it at home, anything it can kill will never become resistant to it.
Yes I've heard of it. Show me the studies that prove it's efficacy.
Replyhttp://www.all-natural.com/silver-1.html
Quote: Know why it isn't promoted, BECAUSE YOU CAN PRODUCE IT AT HOME FOR A FEW PENNIES PER GALLON AND IT IS TAKEN BY COUNTING TABLESPOONS FULL
It isn't promoted because in North America we use evidence based medicine...
Is this the type of study you would acknowledge?
Just about the time big pharma started to provide profits to the few shareholders.
Quote: Go read some European articles on phage medicine, one bacteria has one virus that will destroy it. That is about as selective as you can get.
That wasn't what I said. I said that a virus does not target anything. It has no intentions, and it can't aim. It is completely inert, it has no motility. It has no metabolic activity. It only activates when it contacts a specific membrane. Further, a bacteriophage will not increase in numbers unless the host bacteria are in a large enough concentration., like 10^3 colony forming units per milliliter or more.
Reply, please ignore my previous question in this reply on this topic.
Quote: Ge:2:20: And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him.
So, what did he name them all? Let's have a list.
Reply Really, you want the names of each individual member of the flesh family since time began? I, umm, don't think anybody here has such a list.
Quote: And each is uniquely individual and all their offspring will be slightly different, all that means is they are not exact copies.
Right, you were asking if any of them had changed since Adams time. I'm telling you that 6000 years isn't long enough. So, even going with 3000 generations of cow since that time, that is only enough time for 60 new population means, assuming that they even can split into that many separate populations.
Reply You could almost say that they didn't change even a bit. What was the last genetic malfunction cows went through? Did domestication alter any physical attributes?
This goes back to the mountain example. You can see the lava flowing from a fissure, but you can't see the end product. You won't live long enough. The next generation won't live long enough. The cooled magma might be a little higher, but it won't be a mountain...
Reply Mt Saint Helens, a volcano with steep sides. Mt Etna the same. Yellowstone, a flat volcano like you described.
Quote: Are you calling any differences a mutation?
A mutation is a new gene formed by replication errors. That's the simplest answer.
Reply Has the 'host family' ever been known to kill anything that they would see as 'being different'? That would seem to be a deterrence to evolution taking place in that instance.
Quote: What do you call it when each member of any species is just different, do all children of the same family look exactly like each other. Are fingerprints a mutation, is DNA?
I call it variation. Individuals belonging to one genome, exhibiting a wide range of phenotypes...
it's quite normal.
Reply so it would not be called a mutation and such changes would not be challenged by the 'host species'
Quote: If it is a lie, which it would be, then it is not based on truth.
There's a truism... Do I have to spell the rest out for you now? Or do you see where this is going?
Reply I don't believe you could write anything at all compared to the text of the Bible. No offense, but that would be the case even if you were a very good writer.
Quote: If you could grasp this quickly you would have already done so.
You're the one not grasping it. That's why you're obtuse. You have no understanding of what this subject matter entails, except that it somehow threatens your view of things.
Reply Are there any anti-Darwinism articles out there that are void of the religious angle?
Reply Didn't you ask these kinds of question before you decided to embrace 'evolution' in a particular fashion?
You're like the followers I was just hypothesizing about. You're the one who hundreds and thousands of years later believes the fairy tales...
Reply Yawn
I have no doubt this subject matter would be much easier for you to understand if you took the blinders off. The bible really is poor reference material...
Reply You hope at any rate, if you can justify rejecting what it says about the past then you can (falsely) ignore what it says about the future.
Quote: Whatever.
No. It's not whatever. It's a significant difference that you'll probably never understand.
It would seem that apes and monkeys should at least be cousins so it is a minor thing which one you claim to believe we come from.
Quote: Nature would seem to follow a path, if a brain was getting bigger all through history it would seem unlikely that at some point it would start to get smaller.
Unless it got smaller, but increased the number of folds in the membranes, there by increasing the surface area...
Has it been showing any signs of doing so, or that we are actually using more of the previous unused portions?
Quoting MHz Darwinism doesn't allow for mammals to be the first life form so there was a jump of classes at one point, maybe even several. What was the last living animal to jump class?
You mean, when does a new class form. An animal doesn't jump from one class to another. It's a progression. And I have no idea what the last animal was, considering evolution is a recent discovery by humans. Why does that matter?
Reply Isn't variation the very same as what you are calling progression. Variations could go on forever without ever progressing to altering the basic body form.
Quote: If a soft animal dies in a mud-flow even the imprint of the soft tissues (like skin or feathers) would remain.
An imprint is not the same as a fossil. Fossilization is the reverse of ossification. Soft tissue doesn't ossify (isn't mineralized), so it can't fossilize either. Besides that, the preservation of soft tissues is very, very rare.
Reply the feathered dino is one example.
Quote: It is certainly not proof that links exist now is it...
Of course not. That was a useless comment.
Reply Mine or yours?
Quote: People witness volcanoes all the time, that is one way mountains are built.
Ahhhhh, and we can witness evolution, just not the end product. Mountains and new species, both take periods of time longer than a human generation.
Quote: Not according to the definition of species. Different species may be related but they cannot have offspring, if they can then they are the same species.
A horse and a donkey are two different species. The resulting offspring, mule or hinny, are not fertile. The domestic horse, and Przewalski's horses can mate, and the offspring will be fertile. Three different species, closely related. Two of them can produce a fertile offspring.
You don't really know what the definition of a species is...
Reply I posted the definition according to dictionary.com. Two separate species cannot reproduce. If they have a sterile child then they have failed to reproduce, that makes them different species if you follow that definition.
Quote: Call it 'a' cue then.
It's a cue.
Reply Couldn't we use 'clue'?
Quote: Virus change due to changes in bacteria, they do not change just for the sake of change.
Viruses change due to random errors in genetic replication. They are inert, they don't change except by errors in replication.
Reply Does the number of bacteria available for destruction effect the growth rate of the virus?
Quote: Why is that out of context, that is a very good indication that is the same number of bacteria around.
No it isn't. How do you come to that conclusion?
Reply If there are a lot of different bacteria types would that not mean the the number of virus that exist would also be about the very same number.
Quote: Ever hear of a solution called colloidal silver, it is very effective and you can produce it at home, anything it can kill will never become resistant to it.
Yes I've heard of it. Show me the studies that prove it's efficacy.
Replyhttp://www.all-natural.com/silver-1.html
Quote: Know why it isn't promoted, BECAUSE YOU CAN PRODUCE IT AT HOME FOR A FEW PENNIES PER GALLON AND IT IS TAKEN BY COUNTING TABLESPOONS FULL
It isn't promoted because in North America we use evidence based medicine...
Is this the type of study you would acknowledge?
Just about the time big pharma started to provide profits to the few shareholders.
Quote: Go read some European articles on phage medicine, one bacteria has one virus that will destroy it. That is about as selective as you can get.
That wasn't what I said. I said that a virus does not target anything. It has no intentions, and it can't aim. It is completely inert, it has no motility. It has no metabolic activity. It only activates when it contacts a specific membrane. Further, a bacteriophage will not increase in numbers unless the host bacteria are in a large enough concentration., like 10^3 colony forming units per milliliter or more.
Reply, please ignore my previous question in this reply on this topic.
Quote: Ge:2:20: And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him.
So, what did he name them all? Let's have a list.
Reply Really, you want the names of each individual member of the flesh family since time began? I, umm, don't think anybody here has such a list.
Quote: And each is uniquely individual and all their offspring will be slightly different, all that means is they are not exact copies.
Right, you were asking if any of them had changed since Adams time. I'm telling you that 6000 years isn't long enough. So, even going with 3000 generations of cow since that time, that is only enough time for 60 new population means, assuming that they even can split into that many separate populations.
Reply You could almost say that they didn't change even a bit. What was the last genetic malfunction cows went through? Did domestication alter any physical attributes?
This goes back to the mountain example. You can see the lava flowing from a fissure, but you can't see the end product. You won't live long enough. The next generation won't live long enough. The cooled magma might be a little higher, but it won't be a mountain...
Reply Mt Saint Helens, a volcano with steep sides. Mt Etna the same. Yellowstone, a flat volcano like you described.
Quote: Are you calling any differences a mutation?
A mutation is a new gene formed by replication errors. That's the simplest answer.
Reply Has the 'host family' ever been known to kill anything that they would see as 'being different'? That would seem to be a deterrence to evolution taking place in that instance.
Quote: What do you call it when each member of any species is just different, do all children of the same family look exactly like each other. Are fingerprints a mutation, is DNA?
I call it variation. Individuals belonging to one genome, exhibiting a wide range of phenotypes...
it's quite normal.
Reply so it would not be called a mutation and such changes would not be challenged by the 'host species'
Quote: If it is a lie, which it would be, then it is not based on truth.
There's a truism... Do I have to spell the rest out for you now? Or do you see where this is going?
Reply I don't believe you could write anything at all compared to the text of the Bible. No offense, but that would be the case even if you were a very good writer.
Quote: If you could grasp this quickly you would have already done so.
You're the one not grasping it. That's why you're obtuse. You have no understanding of what this subject matter entails, except that it somehow threatens your view of things.
Reply Are there any anti-Darwinism articles out there that are void of the religious angle?
Reply Didn't you ask these kinds of question before you decided to embrace 'evolution' in a particular fashion?
You're like the followers I was just hypothesizing about. You're the one who hundreds and thousands of years later believes the fairy tales...
Reply Yawn
I have no doubt this subject matter would be much easier for you to understand if you took the blinders off. The bible really is poor reference material...
Reply You hope at any rate, if you can justify rejecting what it says about the past then you can (falsely) ignore what it says about the future.
Quote: Whatever.
No. It's not whatever. It's a significant difference that you'll probably never understand.
It would seem that apes and monkeys should at least be cousins so it is a minor thing which one you claim to believe we come from.
Quote: Nature would seem to follow a path, if a brain was getting bigger all through history it would seem unlikely that at some point it would start to get smaller.
Unless it got smaller, but increased the number of folds in the membranes, there by increasing the surface area...
Has it been showing any signs of doing so, or that we are actually using more of the previous unused portions?
We shall see. The longer explanation saves you the trouble of having to do some actual thinking to fill in any blanks.
Bent light would be plausible if an object was to the side of a galaxy (in that if there was no bending it could be seen) and that would make for a false indication of it's position. If a galaxy is 'blocking our view' yet it can be seen then that light is being 'reflected' by 'cosmic dust' or whatever you want to call it. If that was an effect of gravity alone then the object would not be visible at all because gravity would capture the light before it could make it to be beside the galaxy. Gravitational lensing can also make an object appear to be a different size that it really is, most of the time it appears larger, that is beyond the realm of gravity is it not.
How is what this link explains different from a mirage, other than the light appears to go on both sides of the galaxy (resulting in two quasars being visible)?
Gravitational Lensing
In the above example light should not go in a straight line until it is at right angles to the galaxy, it should start to bent towards the galaxy long before then, no light should make it past at all, it should all be captured by the galaxy.
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica]To speculate and intellectually draw conclusions as to whether God exists or not, has to me no deep significance. You can know whether there is God or not only with your whole being, not with one part of your being, the intellect. You have already a fixed belief, either that there is God or that there is not. If you approach this question either with a belief or with non-belief, you cannot discover reality, for your mind is already prejudiced.
You can discover whether there is or there is not God only by destroying these self-protective barriers and being completely vulnerable to life, wholly naked. This involves suffering, which alone can awaken intelligence, from which is born true discernment. So what value has it if I tell you that there is or that there is not God? The various religions and sects throughout the world are filled with dead beliefs; and when you ask me whether I believe in God or not, you only want me to add another dead belief to the museum. To discover, you must come into conflict with the various illusions of which you are now unconscious; and in that conflict, without any escape through an ideal, through authority, or the worship of another, there will be born the discernment of reality.[/FONT][/FONT]
You can discover whether there is or there is not God only by destroying these self-protective barriers and being completely vulnerable to life, wholly naked. This involves suffering, which alone can awaken intelligence, from which is born true discernment. So what value has it if I tell you that there is or that there is not God? The various religions and sects throughout the world are filled with dead beliefs; and when you ask me whether I believe in God or not, you only want me to add another dead belief to the museum. To discover, you must come into conflict with the various illusions of which you are now unconscious; and in that conflict, without any escape through an ideal, through authority, or the worship of another, there will be born the discernment of reality.[/FONT][/FONT]
There are two choices: God exists. God does not exist.
Personally I believe he does not exist. It ends there.