Do The People Of Iraq Have A Right To Resist US Occupation?
- Thread starter moghrabi
- Start date
Re: RE: Do The People Of Iraq
That's a very rational viewpoint. I'm sure there are a great many people on "the other side of the fence" who fear U.S. imperialism. I haven't really seen any evidence that they're the ones doing the killing though. In other words, it's not Iraqi's who fear for the future of their country who are resposible for the "insurgency". I saw an estimate that 15% of insurgents are Iraqi. 15%. I'm no computational whiz, but that means somewhere in the area of 85% of insurgents aren't even Iraqi's. Takes the "civil" out of "civil war". :wink:
Twila said:
That's a very rational viewpoint. I'm sure there are a great many people on "the other side of the fence" who fear U.S. imperialism. I haven't really seen any evidence that they're the ones doing the killing though. In other words, it's not Iraqi's who fear for the future of their country who are resposible for the "insurgency". I saw an estimate that 15% of insurgents are Iraqi. 15%. I'm no computational whiz, but that means somewhere in the area of 85% of insurgents aren't even Iraqi's. Takes the "civil" out of "civil war". :wink:
RE: Do The People Of Iraq
I've seen news stories that say that number is just more US propaganda, facts. There is a fair bit of evidence that the "foreign fighters" that are there come from bordering countries and have family in Iraq. They have come to help out.
They are opposing their own government because they don't feel that it represents them. If the same thing was happening next door in Iran, the US would be giving them guns and money and saying they were freedom fighters in a civil war.
I've seen news stories that say that number is just more US propaganda, facts. There is a fair bit of evidence that the "foreign fighters" that are there come from bordering countries and have family in Iraq. They have come to help out.
Jay said:
They are opposing their own government because they don't feel that it represents them. If the same thing was happening next door in Iran, the US would be giving them guns and money and saying they were freedom fighters in a civil war.
Re: RE: Do The People Of Iraq
It's nowhere near as reliable a stat as the daily box scores in the Globe and Mail, I'll grant you that. But it's hardly U.S. propaganda - the numbers are gleaned directly from Jihadi web sites. Not bastions of U.S. propaganda by anyone's account.
Derry McKinney said:
It's nowhere near as reliable a stat as the daily box scores in the Globe and Mail, I'll grant you that. But it's hardly U.S. propaganda - the numbers are gleaned directly from Jihadi web sites. Not bastions of U.S. propaganda by anyone's account.
Re: Do The People Of Iraq Have A Right To Resist US Occupati
There have been some serious questions about that as well. Seems the CIA likes to run disinformation campaigns to try to garner support. Who would have guessed?
There have been some serious questions about that as well. Seems the CIA likes to run disinformation campaigns to try to garner support. Who would have guessed?
Re: Do The People Of Iraq Have A Right To Resist US Occupati
The first casualty of war is truth, nobody disputes that. Intelligent people do their best to sift through the BS and pick out what is at least plausible if not credible. Defaulting to "the CIA did it" is pretty much the end of the argument. Haven't you heard - THERE ARE NO AMERICANS IN BAGHDAD!!
Derry McKinney said:
The first casualty of war is truth, nobody disputes that. Intelligent people do their best to sift through the BS and pick out what is at least plausible if not credible. Defaulting to "the CIA did it" is pretty much the end of the argument. Haven't you heard - THERE ARE NO AMERICANS IN BAGHDAD!!
RE: Do The People Of Iraq
When the French Resistence did the same thing it was considered noble by everyone but the Nazi's. When Norwegians sympathized and aided the Nazi's they were shot point blank by their own people.
I know that people must find a side to believe in. It's just odd that it's always the OTHER side that uses propaganda. It's always the OTHER side that commits atrocities and is not allowed to 'react".
When the French Resistence did the same thing it was considered noble by everyone but the Nazi's. When Norwegians sympathized and aided the Nazi's they were shot point blank by their own people.
I know that people must find a side to believe in. It's just odd that it's always the OTHER side that uses propaganda. It's always the OTHER side that commits atrocities and is not allowed to 'react".
Re: Do The People Of Iraq Have A Right To Resist US Occupati
Except I never said that. I said, "There have been some serious questions about that as well. Seems the CIA likes to run disinformation campaigns to try to garner support. Who would have guessed?"
Now we know that the CIA has done this kind of thing in the past, so it certainly isn't out of the question or some wild accusation. We also know that the US has been desperate to control the press since the illegal invasion. They were brutal with member of the press who were nor embedded, killed several in fact. Reporters without borders gave them a worse rating for press freedom the first year they were there than Saddam got. They didn't fare much better the next year. There have been stories in the Arabic press of the CIA trying to plant stories.
So while we won't know if the CIA is responsible for this for decades, if ever, it is a definite possibility and needs to be taken in that light.
Except I never said that. I said, "There have been some serious questions about that as well. Seems the CIA likes to run disinformation campaigns to try to garner support. Who would have guessed?"
Now we know that the CIA has done this kind of thing in the past, so it certainly isn't out of the question or some wild accusation. We also know that the US has been desperate to control the press since the illegal invasion. They were brutal with member of the press who were nor embedded, killed several in fact. Reporters without borders gave them a worse rating for press freedom the first year they were there than Saddam got. They didn't fare much better the next year. There have been stories in the Arabic press of the CIA trying to plant stories.
So while we won't know if the CIA is responsible for this for decades, if ever, it is a definite possibility and needs to be taken in that light.
Re: Do The People Of Iraq Have A Right To Resist US Occupati
You just described US actions as well. Dropping daisy cutters into residential neighbourhoods tends to decapitate people, Abu Ghraib is full of people who did nothing worse than daring to be iraqis in Iraq, and many markets were blown up during the invasion and the war crime (collective punishment) at Fallujah.
You just described US actions as well. Dropping daisy cutters into residential neighbourhoods tends to decapitate people, Abu Ghraib is full of people who did nothing worse than daring to be iraqis in Iraq, and many markets were blown up during the invasion and the war crime (collective punishment) at Fallujah.
Re: RE: Do The People Of Iraq
Although I see your point, the fact remains the Nazis didn't take France and Norway with the intention of removing a dictator, setting up a democracy, and then leaving.
It would be different if the terrorists in Iraq were killing the occupation forces, but their not, they decapitate aid workers to keep more aid workers from coming to do noble work, and they kill their own people in markets. Those market dwellers aren’t supporting anyone other than their families. They kill Iraqi police who want to have a stable Iraq, because the terrorists want chaos.
Twila said:
Although I see your point, the fact remains the Nazis didn't take France and Norway with the intention of removing a dictator, setting up a democracy, and then leaving.
It would be different if the terrorists in Iraq were killing the occupation forces, but their not, they decapitate aid workers to keep more aid workers from coming to do noble work, and they kill their own people in markets. Those market dwellers aren’t supporting anyone other than their families. They kill Iraqi police who want to have a stable Iraq, because the terrorists want chaos.
RE: Do The People Of Iraq
They kill Iraqi police because the Iraqi police are a paramilitary organisation supporting a government they want to remove and are working with an occupying force they want out of their country. It's a civil war.
They kill Iraqi police because the Iraqi police are a paramilitary organisation supporting a government they want to remove and are working with an occupying force they want out of their country. It's a civil war.
Re: Do The People Of Iraq Have A Right To Resist US Occupati
Possibly. In this case, however I seriously doubt it's anything to do with U.S. propaganda. It's actually propaganda for the other side. The "martyrs" are celebrated as heroes. Their names are out there to be revered and honoured by Jihadi's. I don't see any reason to credit the same propaganda machine that wasn't able to contain Abu Ghraib or incidents at Gitmo with such a smooth success at pretending to be Al Qaeda. Just don't see it. Not that they haven't thought about it. Just don't think it's happening.
Derry McKinney said:
Possibly. In this case, however I seriously doubt it's anything to do with U.S. propaganda. It's actually propaganda for the other side. The "martyrs" are celebrated as heroes. Their names are out there to be revered and honoured by Jihadi's. I don't see any reason to credit the same propaganda machine that wasn't able to contain Abu Ghraib or incidents at Gitmo with such a smooth success at pretending to be Al Qaeda. Just don't see it. Not that they haven't thought about it. Just don't think it's happening.
RE: Do The People Of Iraq Have A Right To Resist US Occupati
Surely the line is fine enough for both arguments to be correct. I still maintain that calling this a civil war is like calling the Canadian Government and the FLQ engagements, a civil war.
Surely the line is fine enough for both arguments to be correct. I still maintain that calling this a civil war is like calling the Canadian Government and the FLQ engagements, a civil war.
Re: RE: Do The People Of Iraq
You can repeat it all you want it's still not true. Yet. It takes two sides to fight a civil war.
Derry McKinney said:
You can repeat it all you want it's still not true. Yet. It takes two sides to fight a civil war.
Re: RE: Do The People Of Iraq
Although I'm told I'm wrong buy folks around here, I still believe this is part of winning the cold war.
Other than protecting Israel, the US and England have dove deep into old Stalinist territory with the hope if the domino affect coming into play.
If the Soviet Union still existed, the West wouldn't have gone in Iraq for a second go.
Winning the cold war means we expand our spheres of influence.
I didn’t believe the WMD argument for a second.
Twila said:
Although I'm told I'm wrong buy folks around here, I still believe this is part of winning the cold war.
Other than protecting Israel, the US and England have dove deep into old Stalinist territory with the hope if the domino affect coming into play.
If the Soviet Union still existed, the West wouldn't have gone in Iraq for a second go.
Winning the cold war means we expand our spheres of influence.
I didn’t believe the WMD argument for a second.