Do Canadians actually prefer minority rule?

Praxius

Mass'Debater
Dec 18, 2007
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I thought the coronation of King Iggy was to kill the coalition
and ellivate the liberals back to their proper place .

Nope, he said that although he is not fond of the concept of a Coalition being used, if there is no other option and Harper doesn't snap sh*t on what needs to be done, then he will go full ahead on gettng the Coalition moving forward.

(There's a lot of threads and news reports linked within the political section of the forums..... a search would work just as well)

We were lead to believe Iggy didn't need the ndp or bloc to oust the conservatives. What is going on do we still have a coalition or not ?

Not exactly. These are different situations then in the past. All the other parties, although they disagree on a lot of things, all agree on what needs to be done now for our economy and joblosses...... the Conservatives do not. And if the Conservatives don't plan to do anything at the level they all agree needs to be done, then logically if they all can form together to vote collectively on the bills and objectives the government and nation need to pass and take...... then wouldn't you consider that choice?

Even if it's only for a short period of time? (Which the coalition is designed and planned to be for)

You'd have more parties working together, more people being represented, more heads put together, to make sure more things get done faster, and a bit more correctly (hopefully)

and as soon as something stupid or controvertial occurs, or the coalition start to have differences, then we go to an election again.

Nothing to be concerned about as I see it, as we get a period of time to chill before we have to jump back into another election.

If the Conservatives don't want to work with anybody else and wish to dictate how things are going to be, as according to them, and keep the government running slow/deadlock, then what would you do?

Election? Well it'll happen one way or another, it just depends on when you want one.

The problem with one right now without giving the coalition a chance, is what happens if after this next election, where right back to where we were back in October and we still have a minority Conservative government?

I think it would suck to have to go through all of this again so soon after we just went through it. :-?
 

pgs

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 29, 2008
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It seems to me that the coalition is a sure fire way for a conservative majority.
Watch what you wish for as you may not like the end result.:lol:
 

Unforgiven

Force majeure
May 28, 2007
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I thought the coronation of King Iggy was to kill the coalition and ellivate the liberals back to their proper place .

Is that what you thought? Kind of a strange position to come to. What int he world got you thinking that?


We were lead to believe Iggy didn't need the ndp or bloc to oust the conservatives.

What's all this "We" business? Who is it that led you to believe something like that?

What is going on do we still have a coalition or not ?

Yeah just one more tool in the shed I guess. Should Harper come out of hiding and face the House, his government may fall. I suspect Harper will then resign as Leader of the Conservative Coalition and they will want a second postponment of Parliament to get a new leader in place. I'm pretty sure the Neocons will fold like a house of cards once Harper looses his hold on the PMO.

As for the Liberal/NDP coalition, it's there if it's needed. Question is, will it be needed?
 

Praxius

Mass'Debater
Dec 18, 2007
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Halifax, NS & Melbourne, VIC
IYeah just one more tool in the shed I guess. Should Harper come out of hiding and face the House, his government may fall. I suspect Harper will then resign as Leader of the Conservative Coalition and they will want a second postponment of Parliament to get a new leader in place. I'm pretty sure the Neocons will fold like a house of cards once Harper looses his hold on the PMO.

As for the Liberal/NDP coalition, it's there if it's needed. Question is, will it be needed?

And what if he doesn't want to resign and thinks he can still handle it all?

It seems to be the pop thing to do these days for "leaders" of countries to hold onto their power for as long as they can, to the point of insantiy.

Pervez Musharraf
Robert Mugabe
Vladimir Putin
..... I'm still waiting on Bush to make a move, but then again, how he ever won both elections is still mind boggling to me.

Harper already shows some of the signs of someone just twitching to hold onto their fancy seat no matter what..... it's just a matter of time before we see him spaking on tv hiding in his chair in only a grey sweater, pink boxers and a cowboy hat, holding a hockey stick and ranting on about how everybody around him is a traitor to the nation and he's the only one who knows how to fix things, then swallows his cyanide pill and Hitler's himself.

Great genius, how are we gonna know how to fix things now?

Well ok, maybe that was a bit out there, and maybe that won't happen......

...... but mark my words...... Pink Boxers!
 

Tyr

Council Member
Nov 27, 2008
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And what if he doesn't want to resign and thinks he can still handle it all?

Therin lies the problem.

Quite a few of the party faithful will call for his head if he does not win a majority in the next election (sprng '09). Harpo still believes that he's "the annointed one". Fewer anf fewer are touting that line anymore.

He obviously can't handle it if he was so spineless as to dissolve parliment and hide in his bunker with Cap't Flatulence

Another problem (but no less significant) is that the Conservative bench is very "thin" when it comes to political talent. There are a lot of sycophants, but precious few leaders.

Maybe (and that's a big maybe) with a few years of tarnish free service, Prentice may emerge from a woefully inadequate pack, but the Cons don't (or won't) have the luxury of 5-6 yrs of "rule" in the near term
 

Tyr

Council Member
Nov 27, 2008
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Sitting at my laptop
I thought the coronation of King Iggy was to kill the coalition
and ellivate the liberals back to their proper place .
We were lead to believe Iggy didn't need the ndp or bloc to oust the conservatives.
What is going on do we still have a coalition or not ?

As another poster had wrote.... Who is "we". The 62+% of people that didn't want the conservatives to win? "We" is not the definition of the majority of Canadians in this instance
 

Tyr

Council Member
Nov 27, 2008
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Quoting Cannuck

You have missed the point. The majority of Canadians are afraid of handing the Bloc power. They fear the Bloc more than the Cons.


So happy that you have seen the light and admit that the majority of Canadians "fear" the Conservatives
 

Francis2004

Subjective Poster
Nov 18, 2008
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In the last parliament (well, 2 parliaments ago, I guess) - the Liberals abstained, and Conservative supports called them weak kneed.

If the Liberals now vote against the Conservatives, they "are siding with separatists."

It's all a bunch of garbage.

In a Minority Government, the government must work with one other party to get things done. Who will the Conservatives work with? The "loony left?" The "separatists?"

Personally, I would rather go back to the polls - but if the GG asked the opposition to form the government, it wouldn't bother that much either. In the end the "coalition" would need the support of either the opposition (now the Cons) or the Bloc - which is pretty much the same situation we are in now.

At some point the Conservative party needs to accept that Harper is toxic, and that the Conservatives will never get a majority with him as leader.

PS - I really don't think the Conservatives would pick up enough seats for a majority - they would lose the 10 in Quebec - so would need to pick up 22...They would maybe pick up 5 in the West? But they won't pick up 17 in Ontario and Eastern Canada.

Wait a second here..

If the Liberals now vote against the Conservatives, they "are siding with separatists."

By who's standards.. ?

If the Governor General decides to dissolve Parliament to call another Election nobody sided with anyone more then when Harper sided with the NDP and Bloc to bring down the Liberals in 2005.. Hence the Conservatives also sided with the separatists and also had a "signed" agreement of understanding to take power in the same fashion as Dion in 2004 I believe. just because they did not require to use the letter does not make them as guilty. Let us call a Spade a Spade here.. Both Partied have used the separatists for their advantage.

Here Spade :)

In any case we are "Assuming" Ignatieff will hold the coalition together. This is not a done deal and not even certain he will bring down the Government. Holding the coalition together for the reason of getting an Election call would not be the worse thing in Canada however and any party could say they are no longer willing to stay part of such coalition due to changes in one of the parties and policies since.


Once again we see Harper in a tight situation of his own doing and feeling the heat but this time as the polls do not favour him, and in fact showing momentum for the opposition, might it be him that cowards to the Liberals demands..

Only time will tell..

All I ask for is a budget to help the average Canadian and Canadian business as well as stabilizing consumer confidence.. Less then 5 months ago Harper was saying there was no Recession and that Canada's economy was strong and no one would have to fear.. Perhaps reality has set in by now..
 

Francis2004

Subjective Poster
Nov 18, 2008
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Lower Mainland, BC
And what if he doesn't want to resign and thinks he can still handle it all?

If he loses a vote of confidence its not a matter of "want" but rather of have to..

If he wishes to remain Leader of the Conservatives and give me no options, that will be his loss.

He has proven he can irritate the opposition, lie to the people, stop parliament and frighten seniors.

What about the other qualities he requires like Lead, listen, fix the problems and hold his child not give him a handshake..

CTV.ca | Harper sees daughter off with one-armed squeeze

Wow... Great choices I am left with in parties.. The NDP which I don't believe in, the Liberals with a Centre right Iggy at the helm or the Greens with no elected members..

:-?
 

pegger

Electoral Member
Dec 4, 2008
397
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Cambridge, Ontario
Wait a second here..

If the Liberals now vote against the Conservatives, they "are siding with separatists."

By who's standards.. ?
By partisan Conservative standards - not mine.

As the Bloc is a legally allowed entity, and also legally allowed to operate in the HoC, then I have no problem (in a legal sense) with any party working with them to further the best interests of the country.

I may not like what they stand for, but they have a right to say it.
 

Francis2004

Subjective Poster
Nov 18, 2008
2,846
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Lower Mainland, BC
By partisan Conservative standards - not mine.

As the Bloc is a legally allowed entity, and also legally allowed to operate in the HoC, then I have no problem (in a legal sense) with any party working with them to further the best interests of the country.

I may not like what they stand for, but they have a right to say it.


"Hence the Conservatives also sided with the separatists and also had a "signed" agreement of understanding to take power in the same fashion as Dion in 2004 I believe. just because they did not require to use the letter does not make them as guilty. Let us call a Spade a Spade here.. Both Partied have used the separatists for their advantage."

Then the Conservatives are Hypocrites..
 

pegger

Electoral Member
Dec 4, 2008
397
8
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Cambridge, Ontario
"Hence the Conservatives also sided with the separatists and also had a "signed" agreement of understanding to take power in the same fashion as Dion in 2004 I believe. just because they did not require to use the letter does not make them as guilty. Let us call a Spade a Spade here.. Both Partied have used the separatists for their advantage."

Then the Conservatives are Hypocrites..

You get that I agree with you, right?
 

Ron in Regina

"Voice of the West" Party
Apr 9, 2008
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Only voters have the right to decide on the coalition
TOM FLANAGAN
From Friday's Globe and Mail
January 9, 2009 at 12:00 AM EST
Source: globeandmail.com: Only voters have the right to decide on the coalition

Defenders of the Liberal-NDP-Bloc Québécois coalition argue that, if the Conservative government's budget is defeated in the House of Commons, the Governor-General should invite the Liberal Leader to form a cabinet with some posts allocated to the NDP. There is no need for another election, they say, because together the three coalition partners hold a majority of the seats in the House, and the Bloc has agreed not to bring down a Liberal-NDP government for at least 18 months.

The coalition's apologists glory in the supposed fact that Canada's Constitution is not democratic. Responsible government, they say, means only that the cabinet has to maintain majority support in the House; it doesn't mean the voters have a voice. Canadians, in their view, are just deluded if they think Canada is a democracy.

Obviously, the apologists didn't pay attention in Political Science 101. Here's why they're wrong.

Canada has inherited the antiquated machinery of responsible government from the pre-democratic age of the early 19th century, when most people couldn't vote and political parties were only parliamentary cliques. But a lot has happened since Benjamin Disraeli last took tea with Queen Victoria.

Canada changed from a constitutional monarchy to a constitutional democracy as the franchise was extended to all adults and political parties became national in scope. That evolution was recognized in 1982 in the Charter of Rights and Freedoms. Section 1 characterizes Canada as "a free and democratic society," and Section 3 grants the right to vote to "every citizen of Canada."

In its 1998 decision on the secession reference case, the Supreme Court of Canada emphasized that democracy was one of "the underlying principles animating the whole of the Constitution."

The most important decision in modern politics is choosing the executive of the national government, and democracy in the 21st century means the voters must have a meaningful voice in that decision. Our machinery for choosing the executive is not prescribed by legislative or constitutional text; rather, it consists of constitutional conventions - past precedents followed in the light of present exigencies. The Supreme Court has said it will expound these conventions but will not try to enforce them. The virtue of relying on conventions is that they can evolve over time, like common law, and can be adapted to the new realities of the democratic age.

That means that, in the area of choosing the executive, the Constitution, for all practical purposes, is whatever the Governor-General says it is; there is no appeal from vice-regal decisions. But that doesn't mean the Governor-General is a free agent; she has a responsibility to make her decisions within the Constitution, including those "underlying principles" identified by the Supreme Court.

How, then, should Michaëlle Jean decide if the government is defeated over the budget? Arguably, a new election would be called for, even though it would only be five months after the last election. Gross violations of democratic principles would be involved in handing government over to the coalition without getting approval from voters.

Together, the Liberals and the NDP won just 114 seats, 29 fewer than the Conservatives. They can be kept in power only with the support of the Bloc, whose raison d'être is the dismemberment of Canada. The Liberals and NDP have published the text of their accord but not of their agreement with the Bloc.

The coalition partners, moreover, did not run on a platform of forming a coalition; indeed, the Liberals' Stéphane Dion denied that he would make a coalition with the NDP. In countries where coalition governments are common, parties reveal their alliances so that citizens can know how their votes will affect the composition of the executive after the election. In stark contrast, those who voted for the Liberals, NDP or Bloc in the last election could not possibly have known they were choosing a Liberal-NDP government supported by a secret protocol with the Bloc.

Put it all together, and you have a head-spinning violation of democratic norms of open discussion and majority rule. The Governor-General, as the protector of Canada's constitutional democracy, should ensure the voters get a chance to say whether they want the coalition as a government. They haven't yet had that chance.

Tom Flanagan is professor of political science at the University of Calgary and a former Conservative campaign manager.
________________________________________
 

pegger

Electoral Member
Dec 4, 2008
397
8
18
Cambridge, Ontario
Ah yes - Tom Flanagan. You know what would be more interesting to read? An opinion from a non-biased source - as opposed to Harper's former advisor and confidant.

By the way - the rhetoric in that article is overwhelming... "coalition apologists"? Nothing like not even bothering to cover up your biases...
 

Ron in Regina

"Voice of the West" Party
Apr 9, 2008
28,959
10,940
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Regina, Saskatchewan
Ah yes - Tom Flanagan. You know what would be more interesting to read? An opinion from a non-biased source - as opposed to Harper's former advisor and confidant.

By the way - the rhetoric in that article is overwhelming... "coalition apologists"? Nothing like not even bothering to cover up your biases...


Yep.....sticking it out there with his heart on his sleeve. What a deplorable trait....
 

Ron in Regina

"Voice of the West" Party
Apr 9, 2008
28,959
10,940
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Regina, Saskatchewan
Never said it was deplorable. Just undermines his credibility is all, especially if he is trying to pass himself off as an expert.


So being a former Conservative campaign manager would make Tom Flanigan not a
professor of political science and therefore not an expert then? Interesting. I'm off to
go shovel snow for an hour and call it my lunch break. I'll come back to this once time
permits again.
 

pegger

Electoral Member
Dec 4, 2008
397
8
18
Cambridge, Ontario
He is a partisan hack. As such, his opinion (to which he is entitled) should be given all the due consideration it is deserved. I would give the same amount of consideration to an opinion piece written by Paul Martin.

If you are holding up Tom Flanagan as "proof" of why an election is "needed," then I would respond that it is lacking, because it is not a balanced, well argued piece. It is a piece of standard Conservative rhetoric that does not further the debate at all. If you expect me to change my opinion on the "coalition", I would require an arms-length, non-biased opinion.

Read some of the comments on that "article" - and you will see that many agree with me.

PS - For the record - I believe that IF the budget is defeated, there should be an election. However, the "coalition" didn't deny me my right to vote - Mr. Harper did - when he dodged the confidence vote, and prorogued parliament.