Dion's national program brings hope

Tonington

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 27, 2006
15,441
150
63
I don't know if any of you have been down the Athabasca river, but if you were to canoe down the river on a hot summers day you would see tons of bitumen(naturally) seeping out of the banks and into the ecosystem.

Right, there's that pesky word natural involved with your concept. Man-made ecosystems are inherently unstable. A natural ecosystem we find is in balance already, unless we've altered some aspect of the system.

Here's the differences:

Man made ecosystem
-simple
-low biodiversity
-the law of unintended consequences
-unstable
-poor nutrient cycling

Natural ecosystem
-complex
-high biodiversity
-more stable
-best nutrient cycling

An ecosystem which has developed around a continuous source of something like bitumen is already well suited to deal with it. Nature selects a mix of biodiversity that is the best available to function in tandem with it. Man made can never replicate that, and would in all likelihood contain exotic species, whether intended or not.

Think biosphere, and why you don`t see more of them around.
 

wallyj

just special
May 7, 2006
1,230
21
38
not in Kansas anymore
To you. I guess I need to explain it for you. Carbon emissions are the bad habit. You conflated the harm with activities that don't need to be harmful. It's rhetorical clap trap. Cars don't need gasoline to exist. So I spun your rhetorical crap, and threw in a taste of what is harmful about it(pollution.) Is that slowed down enough for you?
What !!!! Cars do need gasoline to be useful,though.Furnaces need oil to work.


It was a jab. You're pro at giving them, but apparently not so keen on recognizing when your own words are spun in the same fashion.
I've been jabbed,poked and prodded more than most. Have at it.


Not people like you. People who can see beyond their noses perhaps.
Until then we need oil,not pie-in-the-sky schemes.
It's called opportunity you dolt. When pollution is externalized, the costs are passed on. A carbon tax stops that, as would cap and trade. When the playing field is evened, that is an opportunity for innovation that wouldn't be possible due to the market economics of the current situation. How does renewable energy compete when dirty energy isn't penalized for causing health risks?

Dream on,and what do we do until these industries are plausable. Freeze and walk.

I bike to the grocery store with my backpack. No need for bags. I do have a better plan though. I'll not write you a note, and I'll go on living in the real world. Not Wally's world. I can live just fine without demagogues like you.





So, do you make a habit of telling people to asphyxiate themselves when they have a different outlook? What a vile bug you are.
Yes,I am. I want to minimize your carbon footprint,only for the good of the world,you know.


Umm, no it won't. I'm not the right organism, nor would my body end up in the right conditions for oil. Pond scum like you might fare well though.



Another CanCon dolt who needs straw men. You definitely aren't in Kansas anymore, and you do need to seek the aid found in Emerald city. Where did I say it was sound? I, like the polled Canadians I mentioned, would rather see the revenue used for things like better public transit and research credits. Options that would work better with Dion's plan, that so far hasn't explained what and where the savings will come from.
BUT,Dion's plan that you are championing does NOTHING for the enviroment. It is a strawman plan.
 

Lester

Council Member
Sep 28, 2007
1,062
12
38
65
Ardrossan, Alberta
Right, there's that pesky word natural involved with your concept. Man-made ecosystems are inherently unstable. A natural ecosystem we find is in balance already, unless we've altered some aspect of the system.

Here's the differences:

Man made ecosystem
-simple
-low biodiversity
-the law of unintended consequences
-unstable
-poor nutrient cycling

Natural ecosystem
-complex
-high biodiversity
-more stable
-best nutrient cycling

An ecosystem which has developed around a continuous source of something like bitumen is already well suited to deal with it. Nature selects a mix of biodiversity that is the best available to function in tandem with it. Man made can never replicate that, and would in all likelihood contain exotic species, whether intended or not.

Think biosphere, and why you don`t see more of them around.
Well Jackpines 50 mile away from the bitumen are far more robust looking than the scrubby twigs that have to eek out an existance with their roots mired in gooey muck. you really don't think that those pretty rainbow coloured steaks in the river are good for the wildlife do you? and I don't think migratory animals have adapted to that area specifically- there are no special species of fauna that have adapted to it- except for tarsand bugs - think huge 4-6" long flapping insects that bite, I can deal with their extinction readily enough.
 

Tonington

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 27, 2006
15,441
150
63
Well Jackpines 50 mile away from the bitumen are far more robust looking than the scrubby twigs that have to eek out an existance with their roots mired in gooey muck.

You're talking about increasing tar sands production by about 9 times. That Athabasca deposit is huge compared to the river.

you really don't think that those pretty rainbow coloured steaks in the river are good for the wildlife do you?

They don't seem to mind. There's plenty of fish, though they now show disturbing changes in morphology. Growth defects, high levels of toxins stored in the adipose tissue...I wouldn't be surprised if they start to see changes in the sex ratios.

and I don't think migratory animals have adapted to that area specifically- there are no special species of fauna that have adapted to it- except for tarsand bugs - think huge 4-6" long flapping insects that bite, I can deal with their extinction readily enough.

Of course they haven't. Migratory animals don't tend to adapt to one specific area, otherwise they wouldn't be called migratory. Fish, water fowl, caribou, moose, animals that have historically fed the native peoples in the area, who happen to be the owners of most of that land. All will be displaced and pressured with a nine-fold increase in production. You can't remove keystone species without upsetting the balance, and you'll never make it better than it was before.
 

Tonington

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 27, 2006
15,441
150
63
BUT,Dion's plan that you are championing does NOTHING for the enviroment. It is a strawman plan.

Championed? I think not. I've explained it, and the reasoning why carbon taxes are championed.

Explain the strawman. The strawman would apply to Layton and Harper in this case. Emerald city is just a bit further....
 

wallyj

just special
May 7, 2006
1,230
21
38
not in Kansas anymore
The natives own most of the land. If true,which I doubt,what has that to do with the price of tea in China. Where did you pull a 9fold increase from? Also,do you agree that the liberal plan does squat for the enviroment. I may also go for a carbon tax if the money went to the enviroment as opposed to buying votes.
 

wallyj

just special
May 7, 2006
1,230
21
38
not in Kansas anymore
And you should not talk about strawman arguments !!!! This thread is about Dion's greenshift bringing hope . You have gone off about changing people's 'bad' habits(transportation and warmth),gov't keeping electric cars off the streets,cars not needing gasoline,a ninefold increase in oilsand production,and of course,indians owning the land. You probably brought that up knowing that I would call you on it,and then you can call me a racist and feel smug about yourself. I suspect you own stock in an electric car company or you are a true liberal,full speed ahead,damn the facts. Can I send you some drycleaning bags?
 

Lineman

No sparks please
Feb 27, 2006
452
7
18
Winnipeg, Manitoba
I have issues with being taxed for living with items that I have no choice but to use because that's all that is manufactured. Go to the source. I consume only what's available and affordable. Poke, prod or even whip industry into changing what they supply but don't punish me for a lack of choice. Oh, and a few overpriced Hybrids is not a choice. Make 'em all hybrids, no exceptions, and bring down the price. Get the CAW wages down to where they should be, but that's another topic.
 

Tonington

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 27, 2006
15,441
150
63
And you should not talk about strawman arguments !!!! This thread is about Dion's greenshift bringing hope . You have gone off about changing people's 'bad' habits(transportation and warmth),gov't keeping electric cars off the streets,cars not needing gasoline,a ninefold increase in oilsand production,and of course,indians owning the land.

Tax pollution, a bad habit, and cut taxes on investment and income, not bad habits. That's not a straw man. You don't know what a straw man is, and obviously reading about it is too hard. I never misrepresented what you said (or Dion for that matter) in a manner that makes refutation easy. I don't need to misrepresent the drivel you type, it speaks for itself. You've done it again in the quote above. I never said that transportation and warmth are bad habits, I said pollution is.

The ninefold increase is from what Lester said. Are you mathematically challenged too? Here's a tutorial. Latest stats I found was 1.126 million barrels a day in 2006. Lester said we should produce 10 million a day. That's roughly a ninefold increase.

You probably brought that up knowing that I would call you on it,and then you can call me a racist and feel smug about yourself.
No, I brought that up because that is what you do. You must like being wrong.

Racist??? Why the hell would I call you a racist? I think you're challenged in the logic department, but not racist.

I suspect you own stock in an electric car company or you are a true liberal,full speed ahead,damn the facts. Can I send you some drycleaning bags?
Heh, you make big jumps off little info. I don't own any stock. I'm in university. I've voted for every party except the NDP. I'm applying to the military this year, hopefully to start training after graduation. One piece of legislation I would love to see is a loosening of the reins on dangerous offender status.

Yup, I must be a true liberal. Not a moderate, pfffffffffft.

You're a tool.
 

Tonington

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 27, 2006
15,441
150
63
The natives own most of the land. If true,which I doubt,what has that to do with the price of tea in China.

Well, you could start here.

If you read the whole sentence, hell the whole dialogue between Lester and I, maybe that light bulb will go off above your head. That tends to happen when people like you jump in mid-stream to other peoples discussions. I'm growing weary of explaining simple matters to you.
 

wallyj

just special
May 7, 2006
1,230
21
38
not in Kansas anymore
Well, you could start here.

If you read the whole sentence, hell the whole dialogue between Lester and I, maybe that light bulb will go off above your head. That tends to happen when people like you jump in mid-stream to other peoples discussions. I'm growing weary of explaining simple matters to you.
Well,you may have to explain one more time. Why is driving my car and heating my home ,bad habits? I cannot walk to work,or burn wood in the winter to keep warm. You have swallowed the liberal mantra whole and now regurgitate it as if it was written on stone tablets and cannot be questioned. The treaty 8 map did not show the oilsands in relation to the native lands,that is not conclusive at all. And I repeat what the hell does that have to do with anything? The only hope that Dion's plan has given is that we will have a conservative majority next election. I applaud you for considering the armed forces for a career,you are wasting your time in university.
 

Praxius

Mass'Debater
Dec 18, 2007
10,677
161
63
Halifax, NS & Melbourne, VIC
Here's a bit of a different spin on this discussion.

Stephane Dion and his Green Shift plan are not being accepted with open arms out here in the West at all. Western Canada has lived through the National Energy Plan once already and will not put up with this sort of plan ever again. The N.E.P. was true economic oppression to Western Canada and it snuffed out the fledgling Saskatchewan oil industry for close to 15 years and pulled untold Billions out of Alberta crippling it's economic base. This will never be allowed to happen again. Talk of separation is going on out here in Western Canada now, and it's not just the wing-nut fringe element either. This is working its way into the daily conversations normal & rational people who remember the N.E.P. and the talk isn't passionate rhetoric; it's calm, cool, rational discussion to the effect that, if the Green Plan comes in with the Liberal Party, then Western Canada is out. The conversation is just too matter of fact to not be taken seriously. I couln't have pictured this just three months ago but it's happening right now, and it is very real. For those out there that are unaware of the "National Energy Plan" that this "Green Shift" plan is being perceived as the NEP-2
out in Western Canada, you can read about it here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Energy_Program

My question to you folks in Quebec and the Maritimes is, do you even know that this is happening out here in Western Canada? I understand that much of Eastern Canada generally leans Left politically (Liberal, or NDP, or Parti Quebecois), but right now between Alberta and Saskatchewan together there is exactly one Liberal MP and he (Ralph Goodale) will not be getting a seat in the next Federal election. Are you even aware of this movement towards Western separation in your half of Canada?

Meh, you guys have just been getting a taste of what we've been getting for decades now. The majority here in Nova Scotia and PEI, usually turn NDP over the other two, but I guess people had enough of them as well around last election, they certainly wern't dealing with the Liberals again, and that is also why we have a Conservative Premiere at the moment. For the most part, it's the Cons and NDP who sway things around here.

What about Newfoundland? You think their Premiere has been shooting his mouth off for so long just for his health? They've been getting d*cked around just as much. I am at least fully aware of the contrast out west on who is voted in.

We're also well aware and used to the concepts of proviences seperating, for most here, it makes no difference, because if you guys seperate, we're still part of Canada..... if Quebec Seperates, you guys are still part of Canada and we're cut off, either becoming one of our own new nations, join with Quebec (The hell with that), join with the US (ditto), or what I think we should do..... go join back with the UK.... give em back our ports and provide easier trade with the US, Canada and Quebec, who will need those resources due to the split, and bring back some work and money back in this area.

That's right, vote for Prax as the new PM for whatever we'll be in the future :p

Again, I'm stuck wading through the media with different papers leaning Left in the
coverage in the East and Right in the coverage in the West. Do the folks out in the East understand just how much of a threat to our economies and our way of life that the Green Plan is perceived as?

Yup.... we do get the news don'cha know? And most of the National news is broadcast to us from out west..... what, do you think we're ignorant or something?

This is not seen as some kind of 'save the
environment program' at all, but purely as (much like the N.E.P. from '80-'85) a new way for the Liberal Party to buy votes in Eastern Canada with Western money and resourses as it knows it can't count on a single Liberal MP out of Alberta and Saskatchewan. Is this being spun in a completely different way out there?

We just see it as "Well the West never really favored the Liberals or the NDP...." so we know you guys don't like the liberals and I assume lack of experience or knowlege of the NDP is why they don't get much out west, so I understand why you have the conservatives are your default selection.


(Hey wow, the horses on Sable Island are Liberal.... go figure)


^ You can see how the atlantic provineces are similar in thinking as the west.... The Central area of Canada always seems to be prioritized towards the squabbles between Ontario and Quebec, and the rest of Canada is just to fund their bitching at each other.

here is a larger overview of which directions the country is going in politics:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/72/Canada_election_2006_v2.png

There are always at least
two different sides to every story, and I'm curious as to what the other side could be. Can I get some input from someone in Quebec and someone in the Maritimes please?

Well you're problems with the Liberals sound much like the Atlantic's issues with the HST, BS deals on our Natural Gas Piplines, and Newfoundland's oil..... in other words, you're preaching to the choir here.
 

wallyj

just special
May 7, 2006
1,230
21
38
not in Kansas anymore
Well, you could start here.

If you read the whole sentence, hell the whole dialogue between Lester and I, maybe that light bulb will go off above your head. That tends to happen when people like you jump in mid-stream to other peoples discussions. I'm growing weary of explaining simple matters to you.
You and lester are not having a discussion,you and I are ,though it is getting a litle snipey. Lester only posted once,then you responded,then I responded. This is what happens on open forums.:idea: I will explain again if necessary.
 

Tonington

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 27, 2006
15,441
150
63
Well,you may have to explain one more time. Why is driving my car and heating my home ,bad habits?

For the last time you numbskull, I never said those things were bad habits. I said pollution is a bad human habit. That's not the same thing at all.

The treaty 8 map did not show the oilsands in relation to the native lands,that is not conclusive at all.
Here is another site where you can see the map. Compare that to this map showing the oil sand deposits.

I applaud you for considering the armed forces for a career,you are wasting your time in university.

Education is never a waste of time.
 

Tonington

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 27, 2006
15,441
150
63
You and lester are not having a discussion,you and I are ,though it is getting a litle snipey. Lester only posted once,then you responded,then I responded. This is what happens on open forums.:idea: I will explain again if necessary.

What Lester and I discussed is not at all related to what you and I discussed. I know what happens on forums. I said people like you miss the point when you jump in. There's no need for you to explain anything to me.
 

wallyj

just special
May 7, 2006
1,230
21
38
not in Kansas anymore
For the last time you numbskull, I never said those things were bad habits. I said pollution is a bad human habit. That's not the same thing at all.

The treaty 8 map did not show the oilsands in relation to the native lands,that is not conclusive at all.
Here is another site where you can see the map. Compare that to this map showing the oil sand deposits.



Education is never a waste of time.
Dagnabit,you went and called me a numbskull. The gloves are off now, dodo-head. So,using your terms. Smoking is not a health risk,but exhaling the smoke is bad for you? Producing energy does not cause as much pollution as consuming energy. If it was the other way around ,the people up in Northern Alberta would be having the smog days,not the golden horseshoe....
 

Tonington

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 27, 2006
15,441
150
63
Dagnabit,you went and called me a numbskull. The gloves are off now, dodo-head. So,using your terms. Smoking is not a health risk,but exhaling the smoke is bad for you?

Nice try. Smoking anything is bad for your health. Tell me, is your fuzzy logic ticklish? A car doesn't have to pollute. Heating your home doesn't require pollution. Just that it has been the standard practice.

Producing energy does not cause as much pollution as consuming energy. If it was the other way around ,the people up in Northern Alberta would be having the smog days,not the golden horseshoe....

Of this I'm well aware. So what does that have to do with anything I've said?
 

wallyj

just special
May 7, 2006
1,230
21
38
not in Kansas anymore
sigh, I think I will put on my thickest gloves and go for a long non-polluting walk.Maybe practise my ciphering along the way. If I'm lucky George will let me feed the rabbits.
 
Last edited:

Walter

Hall of Fame Member
Jan 28, 2007
34,889
126
63
Getting the shaft from Stephane Dion

Lorne Gunter, National Post Published: Monday, July 14, 2008
We won't know until later this month when the federal Department of Finance releases its fiscal monitor for April and May whether Ottawa has continued to pile up huge budget surpluses through the spring, even as the national economy softened slightly.
But from the last fiscal monitor -- a month-by-month accounting of federal revenues and expenditures -- we learned that the federal government had a surplus at the end of March of over $10-billion, despite the international credit crisis, the soaring cost of fuel, the decline of our manufacturing sector and $2.5-billion in spur-of-the-moment spending on infrastructure, policing and stimulus for manufacturers.
The feds achieved this surplus while increasing spending by nearly 8% in 2007-08 and accelerating the reduction of the GST to 5%, cutting income taxes for the lowest-income Canadian, increasing the basic personal exemption for all tax filers and lowering corporate taxes slightly.
In other words, despite a slowing economy, rapidly growing federal spending and several tax cuts, Ottawa still managed a surplus almost double what was projected for the last fiscal year.
How come?
Answer: Western energy sales.
Oil prices are so strong and sales so high that despite a slouch (not quite a full slump) in the rest of the country's economy, Ottawa's tax take from Alberta's and Saskatchewan's oil and gas sales is enabling the federal government to overspend and still run double-digit surpluses.
Even the higher than expected revenues from personal income taxes revealed in the last finance report was driven in part by the high wages being paid in the West.
Why I am telling you all this? Because Stephane Dion proposes to make the West the bad guy in his Green Shift scheme. The Liberal leader wants other Canadians to think Westerners are nothing but greedy oil tycoons who are not contributing their fair share and therefore should be bear the brunt of his proposed carbon taxes.
Two weeks ago, Mr. Dion intimated that while Alberta and Saskatchewan have just 13% of the national population between them, their economies could -- should -- pay up to 40% of the cost of his carbon tax because they produce 40% of Canada's carbon emissions.
At about $16-billion a year in new carbon levies, the Green Shift would cost each Canadian about $500 a year -- just under $2,000 for a family of four. Mr. Dion has promised to return that amount in the form of income tax cuts and subsidies. His proposal would "shift" part of Canadians' tax burden from income to energy consumption.
But if won't shift it evenly across the country. By aiming his taxes at producers, rather than consumers, Mr. Dion clearly means to extract more of his new revenues from some provinces than others -- not coincidentally the provinces that seldom elect Liberal MPs.
The share of the green taxes he wishes to impose on Alberta and Saskatchewan would work out to nearly $1,500 per capita, or $6,000 per family. In the rest of the country, the load would be just $325 per person or $1,300 a family.
And it's not as though Albertans, in particular, aren't making a disproportionate contribution to federal finances already.
In addition to fuelling the federal budget surplus, Albertans contribute about $4,000 more per person to federal finances than they receive back in federal program spending. By comparison, the fiscal deficit Ontario Premier Dalton McGuinty frequently speaks of for his province is just over $1,500 per person per year, and Green Shift wouldn't raise that to $2,000.
Add together what Albertans are already contributing to Confederation with the green surcharge Mr. Dion is proposing, and Alberta families would be kicking in more than $20,000 extra per family if the Liberals are ever returned to power.
Mr. Dion spent four days in the West last week insisting it was not his intent to punish any one region for his environmental fantasies. But on Thursday, on an online news site for northwestern Ontario, Liberal MP Ken Boshcoff admitted that Green Shift was not an environmental proposal, but rather "the most aggressive anti-poverty program in 40 years," designed to "transfer wealth from the oil patch to the rest of the country."
Perhaps you are beginning to see why many Westerners have taken to calling the Liberal leader's plan the Green Shaft.