Deconstructing the veil.

Chukcha

Electoral Member
Sep 19, 2006
215
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Because you chose to come to a country that doesn't share your prejudice against all things Islamic. You came here as an immigrant and have all the same rights they do, no more and no less. If you want to escape from all muslims, you are going to have to find a country that doesn't allow them. Canada, the UK and the US all allow muslims. Why should that change to accomodate ONE person or ONE group of immigrants?
you have missed my point, why are these women here in the first place, so did the canada invite them or did they seek for assyllium, and why did they come here, not arab emirates for example, or indonesia, or one of those progressive muslim countries if they are so keen on having it their way?
You are forgetting something, they came here to live with the people who aren't like them, but the more of them migrate the more you feel oppressed by their demands for policies. For example, demand for not having Xmas in some schools, as it affects their children's beliefs, demand for dressing codes to non muslim women, as it may inadvertantly affect their male needs, and after all, the more of them migrate the higher the crime rate in society. They teach their kids to hate the westerners, christians, asians etc. And they should be welcomed and respected, HELLOOOOOO! are u there? Let them learn the manners of the western world first, and if they don't like it then they will only be polluting it, don't you think? Your mind is clouded and you are seeing the world through the pink glasses, take them off before someone breaks them.
 
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northstar

Electoral Member
Oct 9, 2006
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Chukca, great posting! But you see Tracy here has gone right through this thread criticising and questioning everyone, and then when they come up with facts she will find some out reason to criticise and state her own opinion. ALA the Charter arguement "it seems..." "i could argue...", so currently she is under the illusion that she has come up with facts, when in fact she hasn't. So if she doesn't answer it is because she really doesn't have any information other than what she knows about her own opinion.
 

northstar

Electoral Member
Oct 9, 2006
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Oh, and by the by, Tracy, in regard to your comment-

I have read a fair bit about Islam. It's like Christianity in a sense because you can find passages that seem to suggest bad behavior is ok, then others which say it isn't… Mohammed himself didn't seem like a neanderthal in terms of his behavior towards women.

Here is a clip of lessons from the Quar’an-
. Proof of oppression, of forcing sex, and forcing submission of anything her husband wants.

http://switch5.castup.net/frames/20041020_MemriTV_Popup/video_480x360.asp?ai=214&ar=621wmv&ak=null
 

Chukcha

Electoral Member
Sep 19, 2006
215
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Oh, and by the by, Tracy, in regard to your comment-

I have read a fair bit about Islam. It's like Christianity in a sense because you can find passages that seem to suggest bad behavior is ok, then others which say it isn't… Mohammed himself didn't seem like a neanderthal in terms of his behavior towards women.

Here is a clip of lessons from the Quar’an-
. Proof of oppression, of forcing sex, and forcing submission of anything her husband wants.

[URL="http://switch5.castup.net/frames/20041020_MemriTV_Popup/video_480x360.asp?ai=214&ar=621wmv&ak=null"]http://switch5.castup.net/frames/20041020_MemriTV_Popup/video_480x360.asp?ai=214&ar=621wmv&ak=null[/URL]
:D :D :D :D - we need more of these kind of videos to show around the world to the dreamers.
 

northstar

Electoral Member
Oct 9, 2006
560
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In addition, there is a lack of understanding about the Female Genitle Mutilation that l am referring to and that is still being carried out today. I see have read some people's ramblings about Male Circumsision not being about Health , which is a falsehood, and is not related to the abusive butchery l am referring to.

In regard to the Health of circumsision to male babies at birth, it is no longer practiced, however when my son was born it was recommended by the family doctor, the pediatrican, and the specialist that performed the short little procedure. l agreed, just as millions do, mainly because l respect his opinion as an expert, and secondly because l saw first hand the suffering of my nephew who did not have it done as a baby but had to have it done as a teenager.

So that is fact.And to suggest it is not about health is a falshood. Furhtermore this has no relation to the subjects of Mutilation of children as young as five.

Now the female genitle mutilation l am refering to is this -

Recorded by Human Rights organizations-
…FGM/C is generally carried out on girls between the ages of 4 and 14; it is also performed on infants, women who are about to get married and,
sometimes, women who are pregnant with their first child or who have just given birth.
…The pain of the procedure is known to cause shock and long-lasting trauma, and severe bleeding and infection can lead to death.
… FGM/C occurs mainly in countries along a belt stretching from Senegal in West Africa to Somalia
in East Africa and to Yemen in the Middle East, but it is also practised in some parts of south-east Asia.
Reports from Europe, North America andA ustralia indicate that it is practised among immigrant communities as well.
… It is estimated that more than 130 million women and girls alive today have been subjected to female genital mutilation/cutting.
http://www.themodernreligion.com/women/dv-ending.htm

130 million women and girls!!!

Recently, a visiting minister to the UK was questioned about this and he says it is a Muslim custom that is prefered... what it means is it is preferred for the man, both as a form of control since the woman is effectively nuetred and in most cases, can no longer enjoy sex.
Currently, the stats are being revealed simply because these women are having complications such as disease, problems with childbirth, and cancer.
 
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earth_as_one

Time Out
Jan 5, 2006
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As Tracy eloquently argued, the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms protects Muslim women's right and freedom to dress as per the requirements of their religion and culture. I am confident that our courts will protect these rights/freedoms and prevent racists with closed minds who hate people they don't know from taking away rights/freedoms of fellow Canadians.

I have read the Qu'ran and its open to interpretation just like the Bible. If someone wants, they can quote specific Biblical passages out of context to create misperceptions. For example:

Dear Dr. Laura:

Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. I have learned a great deal from your show and I try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind him or her that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate. I do need some advice from you however, regarding some of the specific laws and how to follow them.

a) When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord (Lev. 1:9). The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

b) I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

c) I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness (Lev. 15:19-24). The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offence.

d) Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify?

Why can't I own Canadians?

e) I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sunday (the Sabbath).In the book of Exodus verse 35:2 it clearly states he should be put to death.

Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?

f) A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination (Lev. 11:10), it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?

g) Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?

h) Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev.19:27. How should they die?

i) I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

j) My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev. 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? (Lev.24:10-16). Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14). I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident you can help. Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging.

Your devoted disciple and adoring fan."

http://lauris.kaplinski.com/lala.txt

Even though the above Biblical quotes are accurate, they don't create an accurate perception of Christianity. Obviously if Christianity can be distorted this way, so can Islam.

Part of the problem is most non-Muslims in North America know little to nothing about Islam. People tend to fear what they don't know. The media hasn't done a very good job educating non-Mulsims about Islam and instead has sensationalized the most extreme forms of Islam to create misperceptions. Islam isn't that different from Christianity or Judaism. It has fringe elements, but most devout Muslims are peaceful and tolerant.

These websites might help answer questions non-Muslims have about Islam:

Islam Explained
by Mr. Abdul Jalil, Chairman of Al-Huda Islamic Center
http://www.islamicity.com/mosque/Islam_Expl.htm

Women's Rights in Islam
http://www.themuslimwoman.com/herrights/womensrights.htm
 

northstar

Electoral Member
Oct 9, 2006
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the Charter of Rights and freedoms was not Eloquently argued, it was interpreted to suit a point of view. The Charter of Rights and Freedom is about protecting our society and our rights. That is about the Rights of a child to be protected, have a education that is free from oppression, and to live in communities that aare also free of racism, discrimination etc. Our children are also protected against child abuse and have guaranteed freedoms.

AS ihis has already been established on this thread, the Muslim veil and burka issue is discrimination against gender, the Muslim veil and Burka issue is against our rights and freedoms and an example is that our children are being denyed a complete education. And the intolerance of our social values is apparent since it is a new fad started as a statement of political defiance and contempt post 9/11. It is not even allowed in Turkey, it is banned since they want to be viewed as a modern society.

We have laws stemming from the Charter that protect our borders, and where does this work with the burka and veil? This is in opposition to our laws for security.

So it has been established that this is not about hatred at all, you are just trying to make it personal because you have no facts to contiribute.

The law has already been broken by the Muslim due to our tolerance and their intolerance. This is how Prophet's were allowed into Canada to preach relious beliefs in our Mosques. What occured, and this is proven, l can product the link, that it was a recruitment drive, and a funding drive for the terrorists, and it was the link between the terrorist plot that was to murder hundreds of our working parents.

You need to get over yourself, and stop spouting off self-righteous statements about hate. This is not about hate it is about reviewing the facts. Ans the facts are that tolerance is shrinking as we begin to clue in that Muslims are by action not supporting what our country is about.

They are the minority, and are supported by our generousity and freedom, this has been taken advange of in the past, and with this resurgance of the viel, which is new, it is another way of undermining our societies believes and challenging our right to have the peace of mind that our country is secure and law-abiding.

If you stop with the insulting pompous tirade and come back with some hard facts then it will be worthy of a response.
 

northstar

Electoral Member
Oct 9, 2006
560
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this seems pretty clear to me-

Qur'an 4:34, which says: "Good women are obedient...As for those from whom you fear disobedience, admonish them, forsake them in beds apart, and beat them."
 

northstar

Electoral Member
Oct 9, 2006
560
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here are a few more-
From the Qur'an, in the descriptions of Paradise,

52:17-29 And they shall have boys [ghilmaan] circulating among them as if they were hidden pearls.
56:22-23 and dark-eyed ones [hoorun 'eenun], the like of hidden pearls
76:19 And immortal boys [wildaanun mukhalladoona] will circulate among them, when you see them you will count them as scattered pearls.
2:25 And they shall have immaculate partners [azwaajun mutahharatun] in [the gardens] …
4:57 And they shall have immaculate partners [azwaajun mutahharatun] in them …


seems perfectly clear to me...
 

earth_as_one

Time Out
Jan 5, 2006
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Female Genital Mutilation is off topic. It is a cultural practice, not a religious obligation.

Female circumcision is practised around the world, including parts of Europe, Asia, South America, and Australasia. It is most prevalent in Northern Africa; here certain tribes practice it across 26 countries, with rates of prevalence ranging from 5 to 99 percent (Toubia, 1994). The practice has its "culture climax" in the Sudan, Egypt, Mali and Somalia.

It is practised across various religious groups, including Christians, Muslims, Jews and followers of local African religions. It is not, as is commonly believed, a Muslim practice, although some Muslim peoples practice it. Also, different types of circumcision are practised among different religious and ethnic groups. Furthermore, the cultural significance of circumcision and the reasons for its practice also vary across these groups, as does the age at which circumcision is performed.

http://www.medsci.ox.ac.uk/gazette/54(1)/FemaleCircumcision
 

earth_as_one

Time Out
Jan 5, 2006
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the Charter of Rights and freedoms was not Eloquently argued, it was interpreted to suit a point of view. The Charter of Rights and Freedom is about protecting our society and our rights. That is about the Rights of a child to be protected, have a education that is free from oppression, and to live in communities that aare also free of racism, discrimination etc. Our children are also protected against child abuse and have guaranteed freedoms.

AS ihis has already been established on this thread, the Muslim veil and burka issue is discrimination against gender, the Muslim veil and Burka issue is against our rights and freedoms and an example is that our children are being denyed a complete education. And the intolerance of our social values is apparent since it is a new fad started as a statement of political defiance and contempt post 9/11. It is not even allowed in Turkey, it is banned since they want to be viewed as a modern society.

We have laws stemming from the Charter that protect our borders, and where does this work with the burka and veil? This is in opposition to our laws for security.

So it has been established that this is not about hatred at all, you are just trying to make it personal because you have no facts to contiribute.

The law has already been broken by the Muslim due to our tolerance and their intolerance. This is how Prophet's were allowed into Canada to preach relious beliefs in our Mosques. What occured, and this is proven, l can product the link, that it was a recruitment drive, and a funding drive for the terrorists, and it was the link between the terrorist plot that was to murder hundreds of our working parents.

You need to get over yourself, and stop spouting off self-righteous statements about hate. This is not about hate it is about reviewing the facts. Ans the facts are that tolerance is shrinking as we begin to clue in that Muslims are by action not supporting what our country is about.

They are the minority, and are supported by our generousity and freedom, this has been taken advange of in the past, and with this resurgance of the viel, which is new, it is another way of undermining our societies believes and challenging our right to have the peace of mind that our country is secure and law-abiding.

If you stop with the insulting pompous tirade and come back with some hard facts then it will be worthy of a response.

Respectfully you are wrong. With a very few exceptions, a Muslim woman's right to wear religious headcoverings is protected by the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms.



FREEDOM OF RELIGION AND RELIGIOUS SYMBOLS
IN THE PUBLIC SPHERE


Prepared by:
Laura Barnett
Law and Government Division
Revised 14 March 2006

....

2. Headcoverings

Canada has dealt with the religious symbols question in a wide variety of contexts. The question of headcoverings has been raised in the schoolroom, the courtroom, the uniformed workplace, and when dealing with safety helmets. The general trend has been for courts to allow religious headcoverings in most situations unless there is a serious safety or public order issue at stake.

In 1988, the Ontario Human Rights Commission applied a standard interpretation of section 1 of the Ontario Human Rights Code to find a prohibition on Sikh turbans in a public school to be religious discrimination.

That same year, Human Rights Commissions in Alberta and again in Ontario used this interpretation of discrimination to overturn bans on uniformed employees from wearing turbans on the job.

In a highly publicized case in 1995, the Federal Court of Appeal also upheld a Royal Canadian Mounted Police (RCMP) policy allowing Sikh officers to wear turbans as part of their uniform.

Once issues of safety and public order are thrown into the headcovering equation, the answer is no longer as clear in Canadian law. The British Columbia Human Rights Tribunal has upheld the right of a turbaned Sikh to ride a motorcycle without a helmet, finding that the discrimination involved in mandating the helmet despite the religious obligation to wear a turban is not justified by the marginal increase in risk to the person or increase in medical costs. The unhelmeted rider alone bears the risk.

However, in Bhinder v. Canadian National Railway Co., the Supreme Court of Canada upheld a workplace policy that mandated hard hats at CN Rail, thus precluding Sikh turbans. The Supreme Court dismissed Bhinder’s claim, as the Canadian Human Rights Act allows an exception to freedom of religion where there is a bona fide occupational requirement. Because the safety concerns at play in this case did make the hard hat a bona fide occupational requirement and CN had demonstrated no intention to discriminate, the policy was upheld.

Concerns about public order and the administration of justice were the deciding factor in another case involving an imam who refused to remove his kufi, an Islamic headcovering, in the courtroom. The trial judge had issued a dress code protocol to the public gallery which stated that male heads must be bare except in the case of adherents of a “well established and recognizable … religious community,” and only where the headcovering was an “article of faith” demanded by such a community. Upon being ordered to leave the courtroom twice because of his kufi, Michael Taylor filed a human rights complaint. In Taylorv. Canada (Attorney General), the Federal Court of Appeal held that sitting judges must be immune from threat of both civil action and human rights commission investigation into judicial conduct in order to protect judicial independence and immunity. After-the-fact human rights concerns took second place to the perception of the administration of justice.

Unlike other Canadian provinces, which have primarily focussed on Sikh symbols and head coverings, Quebec has had to deal with a variety of different religions in its treatment of religious symbols in the public sphere. The legal debate over this issue takes on a character of its own in Quebec, as that province has a parallel Charte des droits et libertés de la personne, a strong history of Catholicism, different approaches to multiculturalism, and significant control over immigration into the province. As a result, Quebec often practises a variant on the legal and political approach to minority issues that is adopted in the rest of Canada.

Mirroring similar situations occurring across Europe, Quebec first broached the issue of Islamic headscarves in the school system when, in September 1994, a Muslim girl was expelled from her school for wearing one. Soon faced with a series of similar incidents, the Commission des droits de la personne et des droits de la jeunesse du Québec (the Commission) was asked to provide an opinion on the issue. In a non-binding report published in February 1995, the Commission concluded that public schools were obliged to accept Muslim girls wearing headscarves, provided that this freedom of religious expression did not constitute a real risk to personal safety or security of property. The Commission stated that prohibiting the headscarf was contrary to the Quebec Charter as a violation of both freedom of religion and the right to education. While schools may insist on certain dress codes, they must also seek reasonable accommodations with Muslim students who are discriminated against by the application of such codes. Dealing with the feminist equality argument that a headscarf ban is necessary to protect girls from an overly oppressive religious regime, the Commission was careful to state that unless it is shown that a specific girl is forced to wear the headscarf against her will, an absolute ban on the headscarf as a religious symbol is not the role of equality laws, and would be an insult to the independence of Muslim women. Rather, the Commission stated that social institutions play a key role in social integration and must not marginalize individuals by excluding them from public education.

However, after this report, the Quebec Commission faced similar complaints from the Muslim community concerning the continued prohibition of headscarves in many private schools. In 2005, the Commission issued a new non-binding report, stating that unless a private school can show that its particular nature (religious, for example) requires it, “necessarily and objectively, to exclude or give preference to certain students, then it too must accommodate people with special needs, including religious needs.”

....

http://www.parl.gc.ca/information/library/PRBpubs/prb0441-e.htm#2headcoverings
 

Chukcha

Electoral Member
Sep 19, 2006
215
1
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Respectfully you are wrong. With a very few exceptions, a Muslim woman's right to wear religious headcoverings is protected by the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms. .. the Quebec Commission faced similar complaints from the Muslim community...
wow wow
why doesn't something surprise me here Earth?
 

northstar

Electoral Member
Oct 9, 2006
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The general trend has been for courts to allow religious headcoverings in most situations unless there is a serious safety or public order issue at stake.

And my point is that it is about safety, read my earlier post about the terrorist. And this is about our security. AND the majority of Canada is not Muslim.

This is a small group that is demanding that our society adapts to their ways.

So as it says in the article you posted, this is an area that involves our rights and freedoms and safety, so they will never be allowed to wear the veils in schools and they will never be allowed to gender discriminate.

'when in Rome.."
 

northstar

Electoral Member
Oct 9, 2006
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many apologies for hitting something twice, computers and me...a dilema...

anyway, this is about the Veil. No wonder you are going on about discrimination and hatred.

I don't think any young girl should have to go through discrimination by wearing an scarf. That is not what we are discussing, We are concerned about this veil with the slits for eyes, for heavens sake!!!!!

Earth, could you please read before you post...
 

earth_as_one

Time Out
Jan 5, 2006
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northstar

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Oct 9, 2006
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[sigh...] Listen up...
3. Proof of genital mutilation
Recorded by Human Rights organizations-
…FGM/C is generally carried out on girls between the ages of 4 and 14; it is also performed on infants, women who are about to get married and,
sometimes, women who are pregnant with their first child or who have just given birth.
…The pain of the procedure is known to cause shock and long-lasting trauma, and severe bleeding and infection can lead to death.
… FGM/C occurs mainly in countries along a belt stretching from Senegal in West Africa to Somalia
in East Africa and to Yemen in the Middle East, but it is also practised in some parts of south-east Asia.
Reports from Europe, North America andA ustralia indicate that it is practised among immigrant communities as well.
… It is estimated that more than 130 million women and girls alive today have been subjected to female genital mutilation/cutting.
http://www.themodernreligion.com/women/dv-ending.htm

check the link before you get involved in an area in which you constantly criticize yet have nothing to offer but your opinion that has no foundation of fact.
 

earth_as_one

Time Out
Jan 5, 2006
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And my point is that it is about safety, read my earlier post about the terrorist. And this is about our security. AND the majority of Canada is not Muslim.

This is a small group that is demanding that our society adapts to their ways.

So as it says in the article you posted, this is an area that involves our rights and freedoms and safety, so they will never be allowed to wear the veils in schools and they will never be allowed to gender discriminate.

'when in Rome.."

The general trend has been for courts to allow religious headcoverings in most situations unless there is a serious safety or public order issue at stake

Safety/security concerns are exceptions to the rule. Otherwise, most of the time, in most situations, Muslim women have a charter right to wear veils in public.

Just as a Sikh boy has a right to wear a ceremonial dagger to class, a Muslim girl has a right to wear a veil (or not wear a veil) to class. The choice is hers, not some narrow minded bigot in a minor position of authority.

The only exception to wearing a veil is where significant safety/security factors exist. But in those very few specific cases, the onus is on the organization trying to impose a ban on the veil (an exception to the rule) to prove that in their specific case, a veil is a significant safety/security concern.

The Canadian Charter is clear. The fundamental right of an individual to choose trumps the ability of one citizen to impose their viewpoint on others.

If you don't like Canada's charter, then move to another country where narrow minded bigots can pass laws restricting fellow citizen's right to choose.
 

earth_as_one

Time Out
Jan 5, 2006
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[sigh...] Listen up...
3. Proof of genital mutilation
Recorded by Human Rights organizations-
…FGM/C is generally carried out on girls between the ages of 4 and 14; it is also performed on infants, women who are about to get married and,
sometimes, women who are pregnant with their first child or who have just given birth.
…The pain of the procedure is known to cause shock and long-lasting trauma, and severe bleeding and infection can lead to death.
… FGM/C occurs mainly in countries along a belt stretching from Senegal in West Africa to Somalia
in East Africa and to Yemen in the Middle East, but it is also practised in some parts of south-east Asia.
Reports from Europe, North America andA ustralia indicate that it is practised among immigrant communities as well.
… It is estimated that more than 130 million women and girls alive today have been subjected to female genital mutilation/cutting.
http://www.themodernreligion.com/women/dv-ending.htm

check the link before you get involved in an area in which you constantly criticize yet have nothing to offer but your opinion that has no foundation of fact.

Yes FGM exists, but no it isn't necessarily a requirement of Islam. Nothing you've posted proves that it is. Yes it is more prevalent in Islam than in other religions, but no its not mainstream Islam.

If it was mainstream Islam, then most of the world's 625 million Muslim women would have undergone the procedure. Even if all those 130 million women who have had this done were all Muslim (and they aren't), that still leaves a majority of Muslim women who have not undergone this procedure.

You are confusing culture/custom with religion.