Deconstructing the veil.

[tamarin]

Tracy: "When people come here they have to let go of the old fights or they don't really belong here."

Increasingly, that doesn't seem to be the case. Muslims especially seem insular and unwilling to adapt. The recent revelation that scores of Canadian Muslims are now returning to Somalia to help prop up and support the fundamentalist Taliban-like regime there is an eye opener. Another one! What is Canada doing to ensure what you said in the above quote is followed?
I should think- nothing.

 

[tracy]

Tracy: "When people come here they have to let go of the old fights or they don't really belong here."

Increasingly, that doesn't seem to be the case. Muslims especially seem insular and unwilling to adapt. The recent revelation that scores of Canadian Muslims are now returning to Somalia to help prop up and support the fundamentalist Taliban-like regime there is an eye opener. Another one! What is Canada doing to ensure what you said in the above quote is followed?
I should think- nothing.

My point is it has to go both ways. I have never once heard a muslim tell me I shouldn't dress the way I do. Live and let live doesn't seem so hard. I don't see them trying to force us to change and that's the way it should be. The number of women even wearing the veil is miniscule. I don't see that as anything that threatens their ability to live here peacefully. I don't expect them to get special treatment, I just don't see why they should get unecessary negative treatment either.

I used to work in a big unit in Toronto. You wouldn't believe how many people tried to pick their nurses based on race/religion. Indian families didn't want Pakistani nurses, Israeli families didn't want Arab nurses, Sri Lankans didn't want Indians, Koreans didn't want Chinese, etc. The answer our nurse manager gave was always the same: If you only want to deal with people like you then you shouldn't have come to Canada. You can control who comes to your home and that's about it. When you venture into the public domain, you have to get over yourself and accept that not everyone is exactly like you.

 

[northstar]

Good point Chunka,

the tables should not be turned on Canadians, we have built a beautiful, free country, and they have elected to join it, yet we see this manipulation of our laws of human rights and freedoms to try to turn the tables on us.

This contemptuous veil is against our laws, it is imposing fear and eroding the rights of our children to not live in fear, and for the rights of our children to have a education without having a muffled voice devoid of expression.

It is our children's right not to be descriminated against. And I am not even touching on our rights to our Charter, to our security, to our freedom of not living in a society that is suppressed by Muslims'.

Everytime a book or a movie or something is produced that offends their sensitivities they threaten violence and murder and place bounties on people's heads. Just because a Muslim turned to Christianity there is now a bounty of six million on his head. This is an example of a long, long list of the 'sensitivities' of this pompous religion.

Sorry, the Taliban got the boot a few years ago, the Eastern worlds have been rebuilt and secured with humanitarian aid, courtesy of the West, and so it is too bad so sad if they think they will impose the same rule here.

They will never win, our children have a greater right to freedom then a few narrow-minded prejudice and discrimatory intolerant people. It has already been recognized by the Islam world, at a recent internation conference that the tolerance of Western countries is shrinking. It is, and it should be, because everyone is beginning to catch on that this is an intolerant religion that suppressed children and women is discrimatory and intolerant.

This is about joining a country. We didn't fly over to their country and seek out Muslims' and say, 'Please come to our country, help us to serve you, help us to apologize to you, please, please tolerate us, and please, we will even compromise our safety our values and our freedom, just if you could come and be amongst us..."

The time of tolerating this intolerance and prejudice shown to everything non-Muslim has finally come to an end.

There is no shortcuts. There are no other excuses.

 

[tracy]

This contemptuous veil is against our laws...

What law does Canada have restricting women from wearing veils?

 

[northstar]

You don't know???
OKAY, I will do you a favour and educate you, Canadians are protected by our Charter of Rights and Freedoms.

This is the foundation of our democratic country, a country that has laws that protect our borders, our schools and all the freedoms we have to not be discriminated against.

In the immigration process, all immigrants have to agree to support our country including our Charter of rights and Freedoms, supporting the laws of our country that have been formed to support this.

By defying the government's security by not lowering the veil, this is not supporting our countries security system.

Similarly, by defying the school's rules of conduct, they are denying the children and the public's right to have a full education, they are discriminating by being 'modest' to girls but not boys.

they are also not supporting our country because they are imposing, or trying to impose a new charter of rights and freedoms that is in fact and by action curtailing our rights and freedom by deny us our lifestyle.

That is just the beginning on how the laws are broken but l'm sure this gives you an idea of how the laws are being viewed in contempt by words and actions.

 

[tracy]

You don't know???
OKAY, I will do you a favour and educate you, Canadians are protected by our Charter of Rights and Freedoms.
.

Nothing in the Charter restricts women from wearing veils anymore than it prohibits hoodies and big sunglasses.

I've not been denied anything because of the veil some Islamic women choose to wear.

 

[CDNBear]

Nothing in the Charter restricts women from wearing veils anymore than it prohibits hoodies and big sunglasses.

I've not been denied anything because of the veil some Islamic women choose to wear.

Actually the criminal code of Canada does have a section on the use of an item to cover ones face in the commision of a crime. But I can't see how that could be used in this arguement.

That said, I still feel that they should have to remove their veil for photo ID. The veil, defetes that purpose. It's common sence, then again neither their religion, nor the government has a lot of that.

 

[tracy]

Actually the criminal code of Canada does have a section on the use of an item to cover ones face in the commision of a crime. But I can't see how that could be used in this arguement.

That said, I still feel that they should have to remove their veil for photo ID. The veil, defetes that purpose. It's common sence, then again neither their religion, nor the government has a lot of that.

Of course and as far as I know they do.

 

[CDNBear]

Of course and as far as I know they do.

But some have got their knickers in a knot over the fact and faught it in court. I can't say I know the outcome, but the very act of filing a suit, just smacks of silliness to me.

Like Hotshot said, "when in Rome"

 

[tracy]

But some have got their knickers in a knot over the fact and faught it in court. I can't say I know the outcome, but the very act of filing a suit, just smacks of silliness to me.

Like Hotshot said, "when in Rome"

It is definitely silly and I think most of us can agree on that.

 

[northstar]

tracy-
It is very silly, and your answers are reflecting the same level of mis-understanding. obviously you can't comprehend that we ARE indeed protected by rights and freedoms and in your need to evade producing some solid facts you are resorting to silliness.

 

[tracy]

tracy-
It is very silly, and your answers are reflecting the same level of mis-understanding. obviously you can't comprehend that we ARE indeed protected by rights and freedoms and in your need to evade producing some solid facts you are resorting to silliness.

What is silly about it? I'm asking you to provide some factual basis for your wild claim that you should be legally protected from being offended by a woman choosing to wear a veil. Our country doesn't provide that kind of legal protection to you.

 

[CDNBear]

tracy-
It is very silly, and your answers are reflecting the same level of mis-understanding. obviously you can't comprehend that we ARE indeed protected by rights and freedoms and in your need to evade producing some solid facts you are resorting to silliness.

I think she agrees with our similar stance northstar, I think she has Muslim freinds and a more personal grasp of the issue, then you or I.

I have no problem with a religion or group wearing a veil in public, if that's their bag. For the purposes of identification, they should not be allowed to wear it in ID photo's. If it affects their job performance, then that should be their problem, not the nation hosting their immagration. That in just my opinion is ignorant. The rights of the many, should out wiegh the religion of the few.

 

[tracy]

I have no problem with a religion or group wearing a veil in public, if that's their bag. For the purposes of identification, they should not be allowed to wear it in ID photo's. If it affects their job performance, then that should be their problem...

That's exactly how I feel, thank you.

 

[northstar]

Canadians are protected by our Charter of Rights and Freedoms.

This is the foundation of our democratic country, a country that has laws that protect our borders, our schools and all the freedoms we have to not be discriminated against.

Tracy, here it is again, the answer, we have a human rights commission here, and so we are indeed protected.

The reason this discussion with you is silly is because it is on two threads and also because l keep giving you facts whereas you are not backing your argument with any facts.

Instead of asking me endless questions and then ignoring the factual adult answers you are recieving, here is one for you- Where are your facts?

My guess is that you have not even researched this. And this is from Canada, l notice you are in California obviously you are not aware of our Charter of Rights and Freedoms.

 

[tracy]

My guess is that you have not even researched this. And this is from Canada, l notice you are in California obviously you are not aware of our Charter of Rights and Freedoms.

You know what they say about assuming... I am Canadian and aware of the Charter. Your interpretation of it is something I don't get and I doubt the SCoC would agree with it either.

 

[tracy]

OK, you want to know about my facts... Here are quotes from the Charter I would argue support a woman having the right to choose to wear a veil:

"1. The Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms guarantees the rights and freedoms set out in it subject only to such reasonable limits prescribed by law as can be demonstrably justified in a free and democratic society."

To me, this would seem to be saying that you can't just arbitrarily take away a woman's right to choose what to wear without a very good reason, like public safety. Since a veil is no more dangerous than a ski mask and they aren't banned, I don't see how anyone could make this argument for a veil ban.

"2. Everyone has the following fundamental freedoms:
a) freedom of conscience and religion; b) freedom of thought, belief, opinion and expression, including freedom of the press and other media of communication"

Now, some would argue that since they have freedom of religion, they should be free to wear clothing prescribed by their religion. Freedom of expression is often extended to clothing, hairstyles, etc. If a woman expresses her beliefs partly by her dress, the Charter protects that.

"15. (1) Every individual is equal before and under the law and has the right to the equal protection and equal benefit of the law without discrimination and, in particular, without discrimination based on race, national or ethnic origin, colour, religion, sex, age or mental or physical disability."

This seems to say that a muslim Canadian has the same rights any of the rest of us do. There is nothing in the Charter that says western Christian values should trump muslim ones. If you have the right to wear what you want, so do the veil wearers. Any act telling them what to wear and not us would be going against THEIR Charter rights because it would be religious or cultural discrimination.

"28. Notwithstanding anything in this Charter, the rights and freedoms referred to in it are guaranteed equally to male and female persons"

Same as above. Telling women what they can wear and not men goes against the Charter.

"27. This Charter shall be interpreted in a manner consistent with the preservation and enhancement of the multicultural heritage of Canadians."

Again, this specifically makes the point that no one group has the right to enforce their view of what is Canadian on others. Multiculturism is accepted in the Charter.

 

[northstar]

Well, l have never told you what you can believe, even when you tried to tell me what l need to believe.

The difference here is that l am not telling you anything.

All this effort is pointless because your obsession to be right is proving that you have no basis for your argument. The warped lack of understanding of our legal rights and freedoms is your problem, and l am truly sorry for your frustration in not getting it.

I am defending my point of view , otherwise know as freedom of speech. If you want to believe in your interpretation and bend over and give in to the demands of a minority religion that supports violence and abuse of women and children.go ahead.

If you wish to support a religion that is denying children of their freedom from fear and the right to have a decent education, go ahead.

If you want to support a religion that is intolerant and contemptuous of our security rules and regulations, go ahead.

If you want to support a religion that has been proven to allow recruitment of terrorist in their mosques inour backyard, go ahead.

If you want to support a religion that shows it's anger by murdering an innocent nun who was caring for sick children, and by scaring people in there own communities with riots and burning effigies of our religious leaders , go ahead.

This veil thing wasn't even an issue until the last year of immigration when incoming Muslims suddenly decided they wanted a barrier between them and our contaminating society. It was adopted post 9/11.

So if you want to support this form of intolerance, be my guest.

Don't waste any more energy trying to shove these warped ideals down my throat because it isn't working.

 

[tracy]

You asked me to provide my facts. That's all I did.

 

[Chukcha]

No one can MAKE you feel something or MAKE you react to them. That's like a man beating his wife and saying "well she MADE me so mad it's her fault". We're all adults, I think we can all control our irrational fears better than that.

And if the wife could defend herself she would knock him down with the solid tefal frying pan, that's how I look at it from one side of your opinion.

I'm going to ignore the cockroach part of your post.

I am happy for you