Deconstructing the veil.

[tracy]

I don't even know what you're asking of me. You say Islam supports pedophelia, abuse of women, genital mutilation and hatred. The muslims I know don't live like that. They don't think Islam supports those things, so why should I take your interpretation of Islam as the only possible correct one?

I would think that common sense alone would be enough to realize there is diversity among muslims just as there is diversity among Christians.

 

[northstar]

You don't need to accept anything. The facts speak for themselves and if you read you can find out the current situation, and get some historical foundation information. I also have acquaintances that are Muslim, and have worked with Muslims' so there is a glimmer of hope that there is a shift in there way of adjusting to Westernism.

For example, some Muslims' have come forward and demanded that they be protected against death threats from other Muslims' due to the fact that they are not invovling themselves in the war on Terrorism.

It is also a fact that the Toronto mosques had 'Prophet's" visiting and holding sermons in order to recruit soldiers to fight for al Queda. The planned bombings were linked directly to these mosques.

It is a known plan of the terrorist to hire students to Blog and gather sympathy for the Muslims' in order to recruit. This is a fact.

It is proven that Soldiers for the alQueda have indeed been recruited and have snuck off to join the army against our soldiers, and they are from the UK and Canada. This is a fact.

As for the religious practices, l have a lot of proof, where would you like me to start. Even while it is not always reported abuse is preveilant within this religion because the Quar'an supports it. Here in Canada our shelters are full of Muslim women who have had to escape for there lifes by an abuser who is supported by this religion.

I would be happy to provide you with websites, news articles and facts, to prove that this is an internation al problem and while we might be tolerant of this religion, they are not tolerant of us.

There is always a glimmer of hope that as our tolerance shrinks and we become wiser about the situation they will come forward and support this life of freedom and generousity by stepping up to the plate and speaking about how they will support their new lifestyle.

So far, all l have heard is intolerance, complaining, criticizing, demands for apologies, and the like.

It is time to get real about the Muslims' intolerance for our way of living.

 

[tracy]

Trust me, domestic violence crosses all lines. It was a mandatory part of our admission assessment when I worked in BC, where we had very few muslim patients. I would suspect people from all religions from certain areas have similar views of domestic violence. I mean, do you think a Christian or Sikh or Hindu woman in India is protected from domestic violence and muslim women there aren't? It's the same with FGM. That isn't an Islamic practice, it's a cultural one. That's why you will meet muslims and christians and animists who practice it and others of all those groups that don't. I think the difference between my view of things and yours is that I have an easier time separating extremists from the rest. I know plenty of muslims who are not intolerant of our way of living. They live pretty much like we do.

 

[northstar]

The difference between the domestic abuse and peophilia in our culture is that we do not laugh about it, we do not justify it, and we do not quote a holy scripture to support it.

We criminalise it, we support the victims, we speak freely against it, and we reject it in every part of our society, especially the media.

This is not the case for the Muslims'. I have posted information on other threads but l would be happy to post them here.

Muslims' are practicing intolerance in a tolerant and generous country. The way they are doing this is by refusing to show their unveiled face for passport photos, by having schools that teach laws of Islam that are contrary to societies Charter of Rights and Freedoms, by discriminating in hiring, by secgreation of genders, just another discrimination, by supporting sermons in Mosques that are criticising and black balling our societies values.

There is tolerance in that Moslems' will take the gifts that are offered by our country but no where do l see any support of these same gifts. I see no Muslims' enlisting in the army, I see demands for apologies by our religious leaders, yet no apologies for all the autrocities they have committed.

The only tolerance is that Moslems' will take, and then be contemptuous of our ways.

Do you really think you are accepted? When were you last invited for diner?

 

[MikeyDB]

that's right, not knowing who is under the veil is how a terrorist tried to escape from police in England...

From an acquaintance of mine, who is a Muslim it can be a statement about not wanting to be contaminated by our western society.

It can also be necessary to aid the husbands in suppressing their harlem, or wifes. The burkas can concel the bruises, since after all this is a religion that promotes wife abuse...

Lucky thing that Brazilian kid gunned down in the tube wasn't wearing a veil!

I agree that if you're going to have a passport photo taken...you do it the way that society deems it necessary. If You're going to enlist in the RCMP and part of your duties is to wear a Smokey the Bear hat and ride around on a horse...then you take off your turban and become a Mounted Police officer...

If your religion is so fragile that the dagger you're "supposed" to carry, the turban or veil you're supposed to wear ...if missing destroys your religious construct then the problems lies not with successfully imersing yourself in the cultural mosaic but embracing a fragile and doomed to extinction religious fanaticism.

 

[MikeyDB]

The difference between the domestic abuse and peophilia in our culture is that we do not laugh about it, we do not justify it, and we do not quote a holy scripture to support it.

We criminalise it, we support the victims, we speak freely against it, and we reject it in every part of our society, especially the media.

This is not the case for the Muslims'. I have posted information on other threads but l would be happy to post them here.

Muslims' are practicing intolerance in a tolerant and generous country. The way they are doing this is by refusing to show their unveiled face for passport photos, by having schools that teach laws of Islam that are contrary to societies Charter of Rights and Freedoms, by discriminating in hiring, by secgreation of genders, just another discrimination, by supporting sermons in Mosques that are criticising and black balling our societies values.

There is tolerance in that Moslems' will take the gifts that are offered by our country but no where do l see any support of these same gifts. I see no Muslims' enlisting in the army, I see demands for apologies by our religious leaders, yet no apologies for all the autrocities they have committed.

The only tolerance is that Moslems' will take, and then be contemptuous of our ways.

Do you really think you are accepted? When were you last invited for diner?

All just peachy keen until we review the practices of the Roman Catholic church and its priests in the light of pedophelia....

If you're a Roman Catholic the Vatican will protect you from criminal prosecution but if you're a Moslem, hey go tell somebody who cares....

 

[tracy]

I went for dinner about a week ago with a friend who happens to be muslim. We went for Lebanese then to a movie. I'll be over at her place for one night of Ramadan too. Her family has always been absolutely lovely to me. They are persian, been in the US for about 20 years and I know they think it's a little odd for me as a young single woman to move to an area where I have no family so they took it upon themselves to dote on me occasionaly. That's why I have problems with you saying muslims this and muslims that. SOME muslims are intolerant, some are tolerant. Just like SOME Canadians are tolerant and others aren't.

 

[CDNBear]

I went for dinner about a week ago with a friend who happens to be muslim. We went for Lebanese then to a movie. I'll be over at her place for one night of Ramadan too. Her family has always been absolutely lovely to me. They are persian, been in the US for about 20 years and I know they think it's a little odd for me as a young single woman to move to an area where I have no family so they took it upon themselves to dote on me occasionaly. That's why I have problems with you saying muslims this and muslims that. SOME muslims are intolerant, some are tolerant. Just like SOME Canadians are tolerant and others aren't.

You are most un-arguably correct, your story is proof of the point I have tried so many times to make. But that does not excuse the intolerance shown by the angry lib-left in here towards those that have either not learned what you and I have already, nor does it help those that still want to learn.

Education served on a platter of smug indignation is seldomly heard.

 

[MikeyDB]

Oh c'mon now tracy are you saying you're not buying that "If yer not with us yer agin us"...to quote that epitome of oratory genius living on Pennsylvania avenue....

 

[Devin Baldo]

Good Point Tracy!!

You are absolutely right that some are tolerant and others are not. But at the same time you have not evidence to suggest which cultures are more tolenrant on average. I may be the case that Canadians are less tolenrant then many muslim countries and the opposite may be true. I think that that generalizations are not the best tool to make social commentary. I do believe the question remains, to what degree is islam adaptable to international pressures to evolve comparitevely to western cultures. I would make the argument that the evolution of science in the western would has made god as the almighty last word less relevant and as such we are better able to adapt our beliefs to the changing relality of global forces. So i do believe that on average islam is less tolerant and adaptable as a belief system then western values. That aside the lack to adapt to western circumstances is apparent with the discussion of the veil. The veil can be viewed as defiance or just as a piece of material. I have no problem adapting to the presence of veils in my society and as such the failure to adapt remains with the traditional islamic belief.

 

[MikeyDB]

Whereas inducements to hatred are....is that your point....

 

[CDNBear]

You are absolutely right that some are tolerant and others are not. But at the same time you have not evidence to suggest which cultures are more tolenrant on average. I may be the case that Canadians are less tolenrant then many muslim countries and the opposite may be true. I think that that generalizations are not the best tool to make social commentary. I do believe the question remains, to what degree is islam adaptable to international pressures to evolve comparitevely to western cultures. I would make the argument that the evolution of science in the western would has made god as the almighty last word less relevant and as such we are better able to adapt our beliefs to the changing relality of global forces. So i do believe that on average islam is less tolerant and adaptable as a belief system then western values. That aside the lack to adapt to western circumstances is apparent with the discussion of the veil. The veil can be viewed as defiance or just as a piece of material. I have no problem adapting to the presence of veils in my society and as such the failure to adapt remains with the traditional islamic belief.

But when you move to a country such as England, Canada or where ever, because of th estrife in the nation you once called home, should you really drag the baggage that was the driving force in your hasty departure?

Is it fair on the host nation to have to/or be forced to accept all your traditions and such?

That's not to say all immagration is based solely on strife and such in everyones homeland, but in th emajority of th ecases it is.

 

[MikeyDB]

Would someone be kind enough to deconsruct circumcision for everyone....

 

[northstar]

Mikey the difference between the Catholic Priests and the Muslims' is that the Muslims' have successfully hidden it in a culture and justified it as been acceptable and tolerated, even punishable to the vicitm if the victim dared complain about it.

This is found in child brides and in fact l was reading an article today in which a child was married off then raped by two men and suffered abuse for years before she escaped.

The Catholic priests have been undeniably hidden from justice and it is disgusting, the difference is that our society is disgusted, the Catholic culture is disgusted, there is a demanding justice, we support and listen to the victims, and the priests are in fact punished for this disgusting behaviour.

As for the other person who is going for diner with the Muslims', go ahead and look at the information on this forum and when you go for diner you can ask questions. There is a glimmer of hope with some Muslims' that have moved forward with our western ways, I wonder if they would be toelrant enough to come to your home, and to go to church with you. I would like to know what part of the Quar'an they see as supporting our way of life . And why they do not do anything to support our troops.

 

[northstar]

I'll deconstruct the genital mutilation for you...

 

[CDNBear]

The Muslims' are not like me, the difference is that they believe in a religion that represses women, supports violence, has historically and still justifies peophilia, as well as genitle mutilation. So those that follow this religion are NOT like the mainstream Western Religions, that is FACT.

Easy big fella, I was just getting to like you, your statement smacks with generalisations and is quite out of touch with the true Islam.

Not the entire Islamic faith follows the practices you mention, those are enforced by regime and finatical people who have interpretted the Quran in their own way to further their own agenda.

 

[CDNBear]

Would someone be kind enough to deconsruct circumcision for everyone....

The ritual removal of skin aborn the tip of a penis, how old are you, you should already now all about this stuff?

It is a common practice performed by a few religions, it has a religious tone now, but much like not eating pork, it was based on a health issue.

 

[northstar]

sorry, this is the word of the Quar'an. I have to run, but i had offered to back up my statements with facts earlier, but wasn't asked. I would be happy to back up exactly what l am saying with facts, and then anyone can show me another truth, and l will consider everything. But this is about words of the Quar'an that are followed in Mosques internationally.
I have to go, but l shall return...

 

[MikeyDB]

CDNbear

Is that similar to how Baptists used to hang niggers after church or everyone can get together on hating the Jews?

I don't understand why people can't get a grip on this whole neurotic "religious" horsepucky!

Where does hatred for some other religion or some oppressive dogma fit in when our nations invade and decimate somone else's country? Isn't religion a part of protecting Haiti's banana and sugar cane industry or punishing Nicaraguans for their "leftist" resistance to handing over acres of land to American industry?

Citing religious fanaticism is just swell for legitimizing a military intervention but it doesn't work in every case and in fact when you look at the behavior of Britain, France, America and Canada over the past several centuries, it's far more likely that war is an ocasion of neo-imperial expansionism than anything to do with religion. Religion is a useful umbrella kind of concept used to obscure many other things that are going on....

 

[northstar]

oh and Mikey, circumcism is for health. A nephew didn't have it done and suffered for years of infection.
So it is for health reasons and involves a slip of skin with very little pain or discomfort.

Here we are taking about genital mutilation which is a removal of the clitorius and is painful and traumatic, many have died from it and it impacts the health of these children and women for years. This is how we can understand it is still in practice. Cancer infections and pain lasts sometimes for life. it is over 16 million per year, and this is reported. There is more of this happening it just has not been reported.