Dagger Ban unconstitutional Supreme Court says

[Jay]

It's seriously funny. Hand gun owners are under crazy draconian laws, but if you belong to a particular religion no problem to bring daggers to school.

The only "adults" detached from reality here are this kids parents and the so called adults sitting on the Courts bench.

"Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. " Luke 22:36

I don't have a sword, so I'm selling all my clothes and I'm going to get me one, and by God, my kid doesn't have one either, so I sold his clothes too, and off to school naked with his sword he goes!

 

[Curiosity]

Dear FiveParadox

As always when I see your reasoning on matters of society and freedoms, I truly wish we were at the place you are.

Perhaps I have known too much school violence - even the parents of Kleibold and Harris thought their sons had all that represented special gifts of a good education, a healthy and nurturing environment, until they demonstrated how wrong we all were.

Their story has nothing to do with the subject here, but for a student to even wish to carry a Kirpan is suspect in my eyes - of a religion which is determined to ignore the laws of the land at the expense of many - to win a few rounds under the concept of "freedom of religion" for their own.

What has school to do with carrying a Kirpan anyway? What possible benefit could it mean to the student or his religion other than a silent challenge to those who may not understand?

No I am sorry but the safety of the majority should prevail here and this decision by the Supreme Court is wrong in allowing the Kirpan to be carried for "religious reason". Schools or public places should be exempt from the fear of someone carrying a Kirpan on his person sight unseen.

Religion itself is highly suspect when it comes to waging war. It has been the root cause of many lost lives in mankind's history.

One day - you will have your way I hope FiveParadox - but not yet.

We are nowhere near your world.

 

[Cosmo]

Re: RE: Dagger Ban unconstitutional Supreme Court says

It's seriously funny. Hand gun owners are under crazy draconian laws, but if you belong to a particular religion no problem to bring daggers to school.

Good point, Jay. I think that the guns and knives are all best left to adults. Kids shouldn't have them. Period. And the government should worry more about what kids are doing if they feel such a need to babysit and leave us adults alone. nooooo .... not even going to think about gun laws. aaaarghghghghg

Besides what kind of religion arms themselves? If you want to arm yourself and be a warrior, go to a Star Trek convention and dress up as a Klingon!

ROFLMAO ... Das, I love Klingons! Even knew a few words of their language at one time. Hmmmm ... gee, I wonder what category a mekleth fits into? Not a knife ... if the geeks of the world start arming themselves it could make for some hilarious laws! Try telling folks they have to register their batleths and dk'tahgs ... except the kids.

Na ... maybe it's just best to say kids can't bring weapons of any kind to school. Anything else is, well ... petaQ!

 

[the caracal kid]

everybody seems to be overlooking intent with kirpans. it is folly to draw comparisons between the kirpan and guns given the differing reasons they are posessed. When has anybody carried a gun to fend of "spirits"? When it comes right down to it pretty much anything can be used as a weapon. Schools are stocked with tools that *could* be just as or even more effective at causing bodily harm or death as a kirpan. Where are the complaints about all of these items? What we are witnessing is more than anything a great ignorance between cultures.

 

[missile]

They also claim to never remove their turbans. Gad! The stench must be unbearable!!

 

[Jay]

Re: RE: Dagger Ban unconstitutional Supreme Court says

everybody seems to be overlooking intent with kirpans. it is folly to draw comparisons between the kirpan and guns given the differing reasons they are posessed. When has anybody carried a gun to fend of "spirits"? When it comes right down to it pretty much anything can be used as a weapon. Schools are stocked with tools that *could* be just as or even more effective at causing bodily harm or death as a kirpan. Where are the complaints about all of these items? What we are witnessing is more than anything a great ignorance between cultures.

* 89. Carrying weapon while attending public meeting
* 90. Carrying concealed weapon

http://teapot.usask.ca/cdn-firearms/Gov/c68


it's the law CK....

OK, I get to carry a concealed hand gun for protection, and the little kid gets to carry a concealed dagger. I have no problem with that.

 

[DasFX]

Re: RE: Dagger Ban unconstitutional Supreme Court says

When it comes right down to it pretty much anything can be used as a weapon. Schools are stocked with tools that *could* be just as or even more effective at causing bodily harm or death as a kirpan.

Sure this is true, but should we not try to limit the risks as much as possible? A kirpan is a weapon first and foremost, it serves no other purpose. Fend of spirits? C'mon, give me a break.

There must be limits to everything. I don't get it, you can walk around their houses of god with knives and weapons but you can't wear shoes.

 

[Cosmo]

Re: RE: Dagger Ban unconstitutional Supreme Court says

everybody seems to be overlooking intent with kirpans. it is folly to draw comparisons between the kirpan and guns given the differing reasons they are posessed. When has anybody carried a gun to fend of "spirits"? When it comes right down to it pretty much anything can be used as a weapon. Schools are stocked with tools that *could* be just as or even more effective at causing bodily harm or death as a kirpan. Where are the complaints about all of these items? What we are witnessing is more than anything a great ignorance between cultures.

Caracal ... although I am prone to making light of things, I do see your point. But the truth is a kirpan is a symbolic weapon and the same "protection" can be achieved by a medallion or other fetish item.

A knife, but its very nature, is a weapon. Most people (including kids) would think first of using it on people than on spirits. Children are rarely sophisticated enough to appreciate the greater meaning behind symbolic items.

Godsknow, I was raised catholic and at birth I was baptized; six years old was dressed up in virginal white and introduced to the ritualistic cannabalism of communion; at 13 I was promoted to being an "adult" in the church by confirmation. At none of those important junctures was I sufficiently mature to have any idea of the responsibility inherent in those ceremonies.

Why would children of other faiths be any more able to carry the weight of the responsibility of their faith or act with maturity than I was? Trust me, I was a well trained little catholic girl, not a hit and miss church goer.

To arm a child and trust their spiritual development will outweigh their incomplete mental growth or their warring hormones is nuts. It's not intolerant, it's common sense to me. Kids don't need knives at school. They don't need arms of any sort. While a chair can do sufficient damage, it's intended purpose is not to cause harm while a weapon carries a whole other significance.

I am tolerant of absolutely every religion that does not abuse or harm others. How people find their spiritual centre is less important (in my thinking) than the fact that they do find it. Religions are all man-made, spirituality is not.

See why I decided to speak Klingon instead? I do feel strongly about this stuff but being up on my soap box is wearisome for me. I did not mean to make like of anyone's beliefs, only the foolish laws of our land.

 

[the caracal kid]

Are you saying that a child may not know what a kirpan could do to a body? (all symbolism aside)

 

[zoofer]

Kirpans are reported to be blunt, similar to a butter knife but sharper than a bull's horns.
An ideal weapon to poke children's eyes out.

What if all the kids wore a kirpan to school as a symbol of support for Multicult?
Would they be allowed despite not wearing a turban?

 

[FiveParadox]

I am a high school student, and from experience I know that students quite frankly, by majority, do not care whether or not others wear the kirpan to school; it is seen as an object necessitated by religious conviction, and there is no reason why we should breach Section 2(a) of the Constitution Act, 1982 to appease the intolerence that some members have shown.

 

[zoofer]

Section 2(a) of the Constitution Act, 1982

Trudeau's work no doubt. The start of the great experiment of social engineering.

 

[FiveParadox]

Section 2(a) is freedom of religion.

And yes, it was the work of the Right Honourable Pierre Trudeau.

 

[tracy]

Maybe I'm just naive, but I don't see the big deal. Has there ever been a rash of kirpan attacks? Some of them are a lot duller than a butter knife or a pen. I think this overobsession with school violence has gotten to the point where it's just wierd. If it's kept sheathed, under the clothes, I really don't see the problem. We aren't strip searching kids, so it isn't like we ever had any assurances that no one had a sharp object on them.

 

[Jay]

Re: RE: Dagger Ban unconstitutional Supreme Court says

I am a high school student, and from experience I know that students quite frankly, by majority, do not care whether or not others wear the kirpan to school; it is seen as an object necessitated by religious conviction, and there is no reason why we should breach Section 2(a) of the Constitution Act, 1982 to appease the intolerence that some members have shown.

First.... we don't let high school students run our country.

Second....here you are in another thread trying to convince me it's OK to tell people what they can and cannot say and using the 1st clause in the Charter to support your argument, but in this thread your convinced this should be protected by the Charter....so it boils down to your not worried about daggers, but your worried someone might say something....

 

[FiveParadox]

I would worry about daggers if I thought there was some threat of them being used. In this case, I don't have any such concern; of those who I have seen wear the kirpan in school, they have conducted themselves in a responsible manner in relation to the ceremonial dagger.

As for the freedom of religion in relation to the freedom of speech, the balance is for the Supreme Court of Canada to determine — and in this case, they have done so, unanimously. As for not letting high school students run this country, is it any of your business? You aren't in school, you don't know the situation first-hand, so where do you get off informing me, an adult, by the way, that my opinion is thereby invalid?

 

[Mogz]

Section 2(a) is freedom of religion.

But at what cost to our social identity? You're reading in to the section. It is refering to the right to practice a religion of your choice. No one can say you cannot be a Catholic, or you cannot be a Muslim. However the freedom of religion should not be allowed to circumvent the law. Bottom line; the kirpan is a knife and as such should not be brought to school. You can try to wrap that in as much religious tripe as you want, but that doesn't change the fact it is a weapon. Yes we have freedom of religion in this great nation. We do not (the last time I checked) have freedom to bend the Canadian Criminal Code to our liking...unless you're a minority that is.

 

[tracy]

So what if a kid brings a knife into the cafeteria to cut his food? Is that a weapon that should be banned? It seems silly to me. I also don't know that this has anything to do with the criminal code. As far as I knew, not bringing certain items to school was just school policy, not a matter of law.

I really don't care about "social identity". I will continue to live the way I think is best and feel fine if others do the same. It doesn't make me feel insecure at all.

 

[Jay]

Re: RE: Dagger Ban unconstitutional Supreme Court says

I would worry about daggers if I thought there was some threat of them being used. In this case, I don't have any such concern; of those who I have seen wear the kirpan in school, they have conducted themselves in a responsible manner in relation to the ceremonial dagger.

As for the freedom of religion in relation to the freedom of speech, the balance is for the Supreme Court of Canada to determine — and in this case, they have done so, unanimously. As for not letting high school students run this country, is it any of your business? You aren't in school, you don't know the situation first-hand, so where do you get off informing me, an adult, by the way, that my opinion is thereby invalid?

I pay the taxes that run those schools....it is my business. I also pay the taxes that pay the judges in those courts who judge the cases, and the parliaments that write the laws etc, etc.

Also the Vietnam War turned me off of student opinion ages ago, but I rarely let it show.

 

[Cosmo]

Re: RE: Dagger Ban unconstitutional Supreme Court says

Are you saying that a child may not know what a kirpan could do to a body? (all symbolism aside)

Nope. I'm saying a child is not sufficiently aware of long term consequences to be given a weapon at school. I don't know how things were when you went to school, but I got in my share of fist fights. Nobody carried guns or knives back then, thankfully, so it all ended up without serious injury. I can't imagine that human nature has changed so dramatically that there are no fights now. If people had carried weapons back in "my day", there would have been a lot more trouble. (Instead we just bashed each other with our stone tablets! )

Teens in particular are in a precarious emotional position as they try to find their way into adulthood. Giving them weapons is a bad idea. Any weapon. All symbolism aside.