Coups arranged or backed by the U.S.A

[Toro]

Project Censored would be incorrect.

At least invading to control the oil fields, though incorrect, is plausible.

And as I do I quick tally in my head, oil transactions in dollars would be higher than 50%. Its probably closer to 60-70%.

 

[Jay]

Huck

You have to understand that Bush and Greenspan have down more to undermine the value of the dollar, and thus its status as a reserve currency, then anyone on the planet - Bush because of his deficit spending and Greenspan because his Fed has printed more money than any other Fed for at least 30 years. And one of the things that Bush has done to undermine the value of the dollar has been to ... invade Iraq! Not only does invading Iraq create tremendous ill-will, which undermines political support for the dollar as the world's reserve currency, but the $300 billion or so it has cost increases the US deficit, increases inflation and thus undermines its value. So it makes no sense to invade Iraq to prop up the dollar when doing so undermines the dollar.

Well put Toro.

If anything it undermines the stability of the dollar. Now if we had conspiracy types running around saying Bush is deliberately undermining the value of the dollar, they might have a point, but that isn't the stance they take.

 

[Huck]

Interresting Toro,


Here is what i can add at the moment:

(NB: All i will be saying here can be traced back to wikipedia facts. just ask and i shall provide.)
(NB2: i still didn't read the thread on euro vs dollars myth, but we can still go ahead using facts)

The US dollars is the defacto standard trade currency. As you said, this means that all commodities prices are set in dollars. Again, as you said, transactions can be completed in other currencies, but it implies a currency conversion. It is for this reason that many countries maintain high reserves of US dollars, so that they can buy these commodities without the conversion peanlity. Again, as we said, the US dollars account for about 70% of the world reserve currency.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reserve_currency
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dollar_hegemony

up to now, makes sense?


now, All these countries keeping the US dollars in reserve increases the US dollars value. This also makes the curreny very desireable for foreign investmens and stabilises it in the world. This explains why the USA can run such a high trade deficit without suffereing any visible impact. The dollars sustains a high trust value even in normally negative circumstances, because it is maintained through out the world and will not crumble as long as it is held and traded in high volumes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balance_of_trade
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petrodollar

again, makes sense?


Now, if, for any reason, the world starts trading commodities in another currency, such as the euro, this will have many countries transform their dollars reserve from US dollars to that new currency (notably euro). Again, they would do this to ensure they can trade commodities without any conversion impacts.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petrodollar_warfare
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petroeuro

makes sense?

The thing is that if world countries transform their reserve currencies from dollars to euros, the dollar will lose its appeal and security and will begin behaving like any other normal currency. This would cause the USA to have to maintain a trade surplus, to ensure the sustained value of the dollar (and understand what canadians have to put up through :wink. This would be caused by the fact that the dollar would no longer be held and traded in high volume, and would not be able to remain artificially interresting, due to the world owning it.

again, makes sense?

having to generate a trade surplus would be very hard for the USA, and unless some type of economic miracle is performed, it would be a VERY big hit for the economy (and standards or life). It is the reason why the enemies of the USA want so badly to trade oil in euros, because they know it is the best way to slay the dragon; by cutting its food.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_usa


Again, makes sense?


now, the logical survival action for the USA is to use their current might to ensure that the dollars remains the dominant reserve currency. Doing this, they ensure they remain strong, before the fall occurs and another country such as china emerges and dominates. This would explain the apparent coincidence of the USA delivering freedom in the 3 countries that want the euro as the main reserve currency (and thanks to their oil, have the credibility to do so).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petrodollar_warfare
http://www.energybulletin.net/7707.html

again,. does this make sense?



IF this reasoning is correct, then it is on par with the so called conspirative web sites i posted earlier. It would also force us to reconsider the euro vs dollars myth you were talking about. It certainly makes logical sense and doesn't look like a myth to me. Should you not be convinced, more facts will be searched for until we find the truth.

It would also explain why the US are doing all they can to quickly deliver democracy in iraqm iran and potentially venezuela, the 3 main countries that demonstrated a strong will to change from petrodollars to peroeuros. (knowing it would destroy their main enemy, the USA)

It is, in it self, a logical defense mechanism of the USA, and no one can claim it bad, since it is normal for them to try and maintain their survival. But, the bad part is how they lie to their people and claim to spead peace, while in fact they are using the lives of their soldiers for their own selfish advantage.

Now, as a canadian, i like you, would much rather the us dollars be the main reserve currency than the euro, but i think we must search for the truth, no matter how hard it is for us to accept. A US fall would also greatly hurt canada, and i certainly dont want that, but it doesn't stop us from trying to understand what is happening in our world...

i hope this helps and i certainly appreciate discussing with you guys, this is all very interresting..

 

[Huck]

Huck

You have to understand that Bush and Greenspan have down more to undermine the value of the dollar, and thus its status as a reserve currency, then anyone on the planet - Bush because of his deficit spending and Greenspan because his Fed has printed more money than any other Fed for at least 30 years. And one of the things that Bush has done to undermine the value of the dollar has been to ... invade Iraq! Not only does invading Iraq create tremendous ill-will, which undermines political support for the dollar as the world's reserve currency, but the $300 billion or so it has cost increases the US deficit, increases inflation and thus undermines its value. So it makes no sense to invade Iraq to prop up the dollar when doing so undermines the dollar.

Well put Toro.

If anything it undermines the stability of the dollar. Now if we had conspiracy types running around saying Bush is deliberately undermining the value of the dollar, they might have a point, but that isn't the stance they take.

Perhaps the risk of having the euro becoming the main reserve currency is much grater than the risk of invading iraq and slightly undermining the dollars value.

A petroeuro could slay the giant USA, while a war in iraq could certainly undermine the dollar value, but for a certain laps of time while the main reserve currency continues its work as a powerful currency. It makes sense since as long as world countries hold large quantities of US dollars, they are in no interrest of seing it fall. It also reassusers investors about the stability of the dollars. Iraqw is NOT the first war of the world, and everyone knows that its effects are soon forgotten, for the investors to only see the monetary benefits.


again, remember thta money has no moral, no patriotism...

 

[Virtual Burlesque]

This is also why having China and Japan holding so much in American T-bills seems deadly to American interests. In any conflict over access to oil sources, China could cause more destruction to the American quality of life by simply flooding the market with American paper than America could ever reciprocate.

That would be a far more effective gambit, and much less costly exchange, than through the use of any physical weapons.

If China could then persuade the world markets to link petroleum to any other currency, it would ensure that the America quality of life would so far decline that it might take many decades for a recovery.

While I cannot declare that the recent American leadership has done much to reassure my faith in America’s financial world domination continuing to remain a comparatively benign influence, but with China’s long human rights record, I still tend to support the devil I know.

 

[Toro]

Huck

I work in capital markets.

If all of what you wrote were true, I would be flooded with this type of information.

Do you know how many people have ever brought this to my attention in my profession?

Zero.

I found out about this theory, on the Internet less than a year ago. Maybe it was here.

With hundreds of billions of dollars on the line every day, traded by some of the smartest people you will ever meet, this would be an issue of discussion in the capital markets. It is not.

wikipedia facts

Theories are not facts.

The US dollars is the defacto standard trade currency. As you said, this means that all commodities prices are set in dollars.

This may be semantics, but a reserve currency does not "mean" commodity prices are set in that currency. It makes it more convenient, but its not necessarily true.

Again, as you said, transactions can be completed in other currencies, but it implies a currency conversion.

Go back to my example with the Swiss and the Italians. There is no conversion to dollars. That's the point. The dollar is used as the benchmark. When traders trade in the futures markets for oil markets, they do so in dollars. When companies trade, they will trade in their own currencies, or whatever currency they desire, and use the dollar as the benchmark. When BP sells oil to a German refiner, no dollars are transacted.

It is for this reason that many countries maintain high reserves of US dollars, so that they can buy these commodities without the conversion peanlity. Again, as we said, the US dollars account for about 70% of the world reserve currency.

Trade in commodities is only a small proportion of global trade, somewhere between 5-10%. That's not why central banks hold so many dollars. Most trade is done in services and goods amongst rich countries. Something like 80-85% of global trade is done within the OECD.

The reason why central banks hold large amounts of dollars is because the dollar is seen as the only viable global reserve currency at this time. The euro is only 10 years old and its own members are undermining its stability, with Italy, Germany and France all breaking the 3% government deficit/GDP ceiling signed into law at the advent of the euro. The Europeans, especially the French, seem to retreating from globalization, and investors question the political will of Europe to do the things it needs to do to grow sufficiently. If Europe remains in economic stagnation, its currency is less desireable because the returns on investments in Europe will be low. Japan has been in a deflationary funk for 15 years and has an economy that is less transperant and open then America's.

America is growing faster than Europe, so its a more desireable place to invest. The US economy is 40% of the global economy, so it is by far the biggest. It is also one of the most open and freest, so there its extremely deep and liquid. These are the reasons why the dollar is the reserve currency.

Finally, the figures are distorted somewhat by China and Japan, who, between the two of them, have acquired nearly $2 trillion in reserves this decade.

Now, if, for any reason, the world starts trading commodities in another currency, such as the euro, this will have many countries transform their dollars reserve from US dollars to that new currency (notably euro). Again, they would do this to ensure they can trade commodities without any conversion impacts.

Again, the benefits to the dollar trading commodities is small. What matters most is capital flows and the ability for investors to reinvest their surpluses. Japan and China have added to their dollar reserves by nearly $2 trillion this decade because they run massive trade surpluses with the US, then they go into the markets to suppress their own currency from rising too fast. That's why they hold dollars. It has nothing to do with who trades what in which economy. This dynamic is irrelevent if oil is traded in dollars or drachmas.

Huck, I am an investor domiciled in the United States. I love America. And I would tell foreign central banks to diversify their dollar holdings, just for the sake of diversification.

The thing is that if world countries transform their reserve currencies from dollars to euros, the dollar will lose its appeal and security and will begin behaving like any other normal currency. This would cause the USA to have to maintain a trade surplus, to ensure the sustained value of the dollar (and understand what canadians have to put up through :wink. This would be caused by the fact that the dollar would no longer be held and traded in high volume, and would not be able to remain artificially interresting, due to the world owning it.

The US dollar will always be held in high volume since its nearly half the global economy. But again, the dollar is held in high volume because of the lack of desireable alternatives.

The US doesn't have to maintain a surplus as long as others are willing to invest in America, ie its current account deficit is offset by its capital account surplus. This is axiomic in economics. (And if one does not understand this, dare I say one is talking above himself.)

having to generate a trade surplus would be very hard for the USA, and unless some type of economic miracle is performed, it would be a VERY big hit for the economy (and standards or life). It is the reason why the enemies of the USA want so badly to trade oil in euros, because they know it is the best way to slay the dragon; by cutting its food.

Trading in euros will have no effects on consumption in America. To attract capital, America would continue to raise interest rates.

now, the logical survival action for the USA is to use their current might to ensure that the dollars remains the dominant reserve currency. Doing this, they ensure they remain strong, before the fall occurs and another country such as china emerges and dominates. This would explain the apparent coincidence of the USA delivering freedom in the 3 countries that want the euro as the main reserve currency (and thanks to their oil, have the credibility to do so).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petrodollar_warfare
http://www.energybulletin.net/7707.html

again,. does this make sense?

No. It makes no sense. Its grass knoll/black helicopter/tin foil hat conclusion. The costs of doing so have been enormous and undermines the stated goal.

IF this reasoning is correct, then it is on par with the so called conspirative web sites i posted earlier. It would also force us to reconsider the euro vs dollars myth you were talking about. It certainly makes logical sense and doesn't look like a myth to me. Should you not be convinced, more facts will be searched for until we find the truth.

The great thing about the Internet is that anybody with any theory can post it and make it sound plausible. These theories discredit those who propogate them. Serious people should run as far away as possible.

 

[Toro]

This is also why having China and Japan holding so much in American T-bills seems deadly to American interests. In any conflict over access to oil sources, China could cause more destruction to the American quality of life by simply flooding the market with American paper than America could ever reciprocate.

And this is perhaps a reason why global conflicts are less likely, not more. China's growth has been fueled by American consumption. Any attempt by China to take action against the US would be suicidal to China as well. And vice-versa.

 

[Jay]

Huck

You have to understand that Bush and Greenspan have down more to undermine the value of the dollar, and thus its status as a reserve currency, then anyone on the planet - Bush because of his deficit spending and Greenspan because his Fed has printed more money than any other Fed for at least 30 years. And one of the things that Bush has done to undermine the value of the dollar has been to ... invade Iraq! Not only does invading Iraq create tremendous ill-will, which undermines political support for the dollar as the world's reserve currency, but the $300 billion or so it has cost increases the US deficit, increases inflation and thus undermines its value. So it makes no sense to invade Iraq to prop up the dollar when doing so undermines the dollar.

Well put Toro.

If anything it undermines the stability of the dollar. Now if we had conspiracy types running around saying Bush is deliberately undermining the value of the dollar, they might have a point, but that isn't the stance they take.

Perhaps the risk of having the euro becoming the main reserve currency is much grater than the risk of invading iraq and slightly undermining the dollars value.

A petroeuro could slay the giant USA, while a war in iraq could certainly undermine the dollar value, but for a certain laps of time while the main reserve currency continues its work as a powerful currency. It makes sense since as long as world countries hold large quantities of US dollars, they are in no interrest of seing it fall. It also reassusers investors about the stability of the dollars. Iraqw is NOT the first war of the world, and everyone knows that its effects are soon forgotten, for the investors to only see the monetary benefits.


again, remember thta money has no moral, no patriotism...

I just don't agree.

If the world’s benchmark was to change to the euro, and if there was a flood of US currency on the market, I would expect to see the mechanics of monetary policy change in America, not war with Arab states to secure oil. The securing of oil has more to do with who doesn't get it, not so much as who does get it. This is why I would question Bushes new found love of alternate fuel sources, I mean if America isn't buying Arab oil, who is? I think it’s a problem.

America hasn’t always enjoyed being the world’s benchmark currency, (and I agree there is advantage to being that), didn’t it used to be the Pound? What happened when that changed?

I wouldn’t go placing my faith in the Euro. How many states are involved in propping that up? Europe has unity problems that far out weigh America’s problems, and they (almost) promise to be their own undoing. Now if you want the world to hold your “dollar” stability would be the order of the day, and truthfully (IMO) Europe doesn’t offer that. In America there is stability and they can take the blow of huge deficits and ill will in the world. I can only wish they would pay me in American Dollars.

So, my point in my story? Politics has a far greater effect on the value of the dollar. Look what happened to the Canadian Dollar when the Quebec referendum was going on in Canada.

 

[Virtual Burlesque]

China's growth has been fueled by American consumption. Any attempt by China to take action against the US would be suicidal to China as well. And vice-versa.

It was for the reasons you stated that I included the phrase “in any conflict over access to oil sources.”

In such a situation, the rapid loss of a market would be compensated for by an equally rapid loss of a world market competitor.

The reason why central banks hold large amounts of dollars is because the dollar is seen as the only viable global reserve currency at this time.

The dollar is seen as the only viable global reserve currency because oil values have been pegged to it since the days of the Marshal Plan. Now that other world currencies are not so volatile as in that post WWII era, any of the major currencies could be pegged to petroleum payments and it would immediately become the only viable global reserve currency.

In addition, the previous global reserve currency would suffer a near catastrophic decline.

If you work in world markets and are unaware of the concerns raised by the increased Chinese domination amongst America’s creditors, you haven’t been paying attention to the journals of your profession.

 

[Toro]

The dollar is seen as the only viable global reserve currency because oil values have been pegged to it since the days of the Marshal Plan. Now that other world currencies are not so volatile as in that post WWII era, any of the major currencies could be pegged to petroleum payments and it would immediately become the only viable global reserve currency.

Well, first of all, currencies are more volatile now after the collapse of the Bretton Woods system than they were from 1945-1970 when currencies were pegged to one another.

Second, no currencies can "immediately" become a global reserve currency. There are currently only three options.

Third, people like to boil everything down to oil. And no doubt it is an important resource. But the central banks do not construct monetary policy and their monetary base around oil.

Fourth, oil accounts for about 4% of American consumption.

If you work in world markets and are unaware of the concerns raised by the increased Chinese domination amongst America’s creditors, you haven’t been paying attention to the journals of your profession.

Aah, but I didn't say that, did I. What I'm trying to do is dispell this silly myth about America invading to maintain its currency. If you go back and read what I've posted, I've already written that Bush and Greenspan have undermined the dollar all on their own. And that's why I own a swack of gold, metals and oils.

 

[Huck]

interresting toro, but i get the feeling most of what you said is not oposed, but rather complementary to what i wrote.


You are right that economics are much more complex than the oil commodity trade. But never the less, no one can undermine its influence on world markets and the importance of the dollar in the world. Would you attest that losing its main reserve currency status in the world by other country's conversion of US dollar reserve to another currency, say euro would have no significant impact? It would definitively be a very high psychological and economical blow to the credibility and appeal of the US dollar. Already the whoes of the US economy, although still relatively minor have heplped propelled the canadian dollar from 63 cents to somewhere around 87, and still going. The US instability is begining to make some investors nervous. In the markets, an impact as high as oil reserve change would be significant, hard to deny that.

As for the euro, it is true that europe's uncertain future is nothing to help. But it still doen't prevent it from being the first contender to reserve currency. And who knows, perhaps the yuan will eventually prove worthy for the job. All in all, a rise in the interrest in these currencies (i.e. due to oil trades benchmarking) could mark a change that would incite world banks to begin stocking up on other currencies, further decreasing the appeal of the us dollar.

Raising interrest rates would continue to attract investment, as long as the US prove to be somewhat interresting. The economy in the US, although strong, is not doing that well (im missing facts here, but we can look it up) and in the long term, may not be what it used to be. All these factors influence world investors to seek diversification into relatively long term stables economies such as canada with it's natural resources, china, etc. A failing economy, decreased interrest in the dollar, increased unemployment rates, outsourcing, reduced education levels and reduced productivity will, in the long run, not help the US maintain their current way of life. This is also influenced by the decrased competitiveness of the US with other developing nations. we can see it with all the major job cuts we have seen lately with in the automotive industries, high tech, etc.

In any case, it doesn't change that fact that enemies of the USA are trying to change their oil trading currency to euro. It has a market political appeal and is obviously an first step in hurintg the US dollar, something US administration may not like to see happening.


As for cost of war, it does not consider the gains it gets from oil prices rising due to instability (7 out of 9 of the main oil extractors are US gornment owned, 2 are private) and increased profit returns. also, war stimulates economy by increasing investment in weapons companies and their activities. lets not forget the lucrative reconstruction contracts awarded to many US companies. All these are advantages that the war provides and can not be ignored.


this being said, i agree it is a complex issue toro, and many factors are at stake. It is also why this all reamins a theory, and not even the greatest economists can really say what will happen. But, evertyone agrees that the tensions in the middle east and the rise of great powers such as china will play a determinant role in all of this. And, although we can downgrade its importance, it would be crazy to deny that oil still holds an important place in the world economies, trade and politics.

do you agree on this?

 

[Huck]

Fourth, oil accounts for about 4% of American consumption.

It doesn't matter what the american oil consumption is; world reserves will provide it the stability and credibility required to continue, even if america's economy is unbalanced. As long as the whole world owns US dollars, i will trust it for value and invest in the USA, despite reports of an unsure economic future. This has a high impact.


so in short, although oil may be a small part of american consumption, the dollar status of main reserve provides it the psychological stability required, and this is a major factor.

 

[Huck]

FYI: about the fall of the pound as world main reserve currency:

945–1959: The Post-War Era

After WWII, the British economy had again lost huge amounts of absolute wealth. Her economy was driven entirely for the needs of war and took some time to be reorganised for peaceful production. Immediately after the war had ended, the USA halted Lend-Lease. This had been fundamental to the sustainability of the British economy during the war and it was expected that it would continue during the period of transition. Instead, the Labour Government under Clement Attlee sent John Maynard Keynes to negotiate a loan, known as the Washington Loan Agreement in December 1945. The terms were not as favourable as the British had hoped for, and included crucially a convertibility clause. In this, the USA expected that within two years, the British currency, Sterling, would become fully convertible. The winter of 1946–1947 proved to be very harsh curtailing production and leading to shortages of coal which again affected the economy so that by August 1947 when convertibility was due to begin, the economy was not as strong as it needed to be. When the Labour Government enacted convertibility, there was a run on Sterling, meaning that Sterling was being traded in for dollars, seen as the new, more powerful and stable currency in the world. This damaged the British economy and within weeks it was stopped. By 1949, the British pound was over valued and had to be devalued though this is often considered a measure of last resort for Governments.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_history_of_Britain

 

[I think not]

 

[Huck]

other good cartoons:

http://politicalhumor.about.com/library/images/blantiwarpics.htm





This is just fro fun american friends, no harsh feelings here

 

[Toro]

Huck

You have to understand that this argument to a guy like me is akin to someone arguing with a psychiatrist that horoscopes are an accurate reflection of someone's psychological make-up. There are, after all, lots of horoscope sites on the Internet.

interresting toro, but i get the feeling most of what you said is not oposed, but rather complementary to what i wrote.

What I am opposed to is the conclusion that the US is making war to enforce the dollar standard. I do not argue that the US is debasing its currency or that other countries should not diversify their reserves.

Would you attest that losing its main reserve currency status in the world by other country's conversion of US dollar reserve to another currency, say euro would have no significant impact? It would definitively be a very high psychological and economical blow to the credibility and appeal of the US dollar. Already the whoes of the US economy, although still relatively minor have heplped propelled the canadian dollar from 63 cents to somewhere around 87, and still going. The US instability is begining to make some investors nervous. In the markets, an impact as high as oil reserve change would be significant, hard to deny that.

Yes it would have an impact. Its already having an impact. Investors are nervous and have been for some time, which is why the dollar fell from $0.85 to $1.30 against the Euro. But don't get too fooled by the schizophrenia of the short and intermediate term gyrations of the currency market.

As for the euro, it is true that europe's uncertain future is nothing to help. But it still doen't prevent it from being the first contender to reserve currency. And who knows, perhaps the yuan will eventually prove worthy for the job. All in all, a rise in the interrest in these currencies (i.e. due to oil trades benchmarking) could mark a change that would incite world banks to begin stocking up on other currencies, further decreasing the appeal of the us dollar.

The euro is the first contender but my bet is it will never replace the dollar. A more significant long-term contender is the yuan, in maybe 50 years.

In any case, it doesn't change that fact that enemies of the USA are trying to change their oil trading currency to euro. It has a market political appeal and is obviously an first step in hurintg the US dollar, something US administration may not like to see happening.

OECD accounts for 80-85% of global trade and capital flows. Add India and China to that, and you are at 90%+. What happens in Iran and Venezuela is virtually irrelevent.

And why wouldn't America's enemies not want to use the dollar?

As for cost of war, it does not consider the gains it gets from oil prices rising due to instability (7 out of 9 of the main oil extractors are US gornment owned, 2 are private) and increased profit returns. also, war stimulates economy by increasing investment in weapons companies and their activities. lets not forget the lucrative reconstruction contracts awarded to many US companies. All these are advantages that the war provides and can not be ignored.

It has a minor effect. The expenditures of weapons by all American defense companies combined is far less than the sales by one company, Wal-Mart.

this being said, i agree it is a complex issue toro, and many factors are at stake. It is also why this all reamins a theory, and not even the greatest economists can really say what will happen. But, evertyone agrees that the tensions in the middle east and the rise of great powers such as china will play a determinant role in all of this. And, although we can downgrade its importance, it would be crazy to deny that oil still holds an important place in the world economies, trade and politics.

do you agree on this?

Oil is important.

 

[Huck]

Thought this one was funny in the current context

 

[I think not]

I find that OFFENSIVE Huck, I am now going to Midtown manhattan and torch your consulate :lol:

 

[Huck]

ok toro, i think this is pretty much as far we could go before begining turning around.

I would really like an economist expert to add some input, in any case, none of us has given clear facts that either supported or revoked the thesis of war for oil and the myth of dollar vs euro. Hence, why it will remain a theory.

This being said, i dont think it will be appropriate to call it a myth. but rather a theory, even less to either believe in it or not. The conclusion that oil IS important and affects the dollar interest in the world, but is not at all the only factor dictating the behavior of the US dollar in the world is not sufficient for us to make any conlcusion.

we shall then give the benefit of doubt. It is a very interresting topic, one of the most productive ive seen

do you agree?

 

[Huck]

I find that OFFENSIVE Huck, I am now going to Midtown manhattan and torch your consulate :lol:

lol, i was expecting that