Common lies in the Lebanon war debates.

[Graeme]

Re: RE: Common lies in the Lebanon war debates.

It's really becoming obvious to me that these posts can't possibly be written by anyone who actually has Israeli or Lebanese friends. Am I wrong???

Almost everything thats posted is being linked to some form of media as well??? Have we forgotten how much crap the media delivers??? There is censorship on these media releases too. Do you really believe that Israel's casualties are that low???(Come on!)

Also did you know that there are "Rules for War"?

Ponder a little, I need rootbeer,
the Martyr

I know both Israelis and Lebanese, here's the thing, not one of the people from either country that I have spoken with think that Israel is doing anything wrong. Some on both sides wish it could be over, but believe it is a nessecary evil. Of the Lebanese that I know 3 are christian and one is Muslim (Sunni) and all the Isralis I know are Jewish.

The Lebanese I know all think that it is there own governments fault for not stopping Hezbollah in the first place, and they all view Hezbollah as an Iranian Orginization that is trying to have as much influance as possible over Lebanon, and in General would have the Shi'ites as the rulers of Lebanon and believe everyone else is worthless.

The Isralis (and I know a lot of them as my Grandmother is Jewish) all just think of Hezbollah as a terrorist group that wants to destroy Israel and all Jews. They also see Iran as the a huge problem for ME peace because Iran keeps funding the terrorist orginizations.

I was supprised when I heard the Lebanese say they agreed with what Israel was doing and understood why they are doing it. What supprised me more was how pissed they were with there own government for not securing the south and taking care of the people in the south the way they should have.

 

[Graeme]

Re: RE: Common lies in the Le

That argument doesn't hold water -- if it is OK to continue the campaign of murder because "terrorists" have also been killed, that argument could be used to "justify" Hitler's demented campaign because it, too, killed what were perceived to be "terrorists".

Would you argue that Hitler should not have been stopped? Would you argue that the bombing of Germany, which killed hundreds of thousands, if not millions of civilians should not have happened?

for some reason Gopher is calling Jews terrorists, at lesat in the eyes of Hitler, which simply isn't true. Gopher you really need wake up and realize what you say.

 

[Colpy]

Re: RE: Common lies in the Le

That argument doesn't hold water -- if it is OK to continue the campaign of murder because "terrorists" have also been killed, that argument could be used to "justify" Hitler's demented campaign because it, too, killed what were perceived to be "terrorists".

Would you argue that Hitler should not have been stopped? Would you argue that the bombing of Germany, which killed hundreds of thousands, if not millions of civilians should not have happened?

for some reason Gopher is calling Jews terrorists, at lesat in the eyes of Hitler, which simply isn't true. Gopher you really need wake up and realize what you say.

The gap in his thinking is a little more specific than that......he is correct that Hitler used the terrorist label on Jews, specifically on the fellow accused of burning down the German Reichstag (Parliament buildings).

The problem is, of course, that the Jews WERE NT terrorists, and Hezbollah are terrorists.

Big difference.

 

[Finder]

Well first off since Freethinker doesn't appear to understand the current conflic in Lebanon. Yes Isreal has the right to defend itself and I think it should. But one should also remember the historic claims to the area's and the charttered area's of Isreal set by the UN.

I'm not going to get into either of those two area's right now. But generally this conflic is not against the government of Lebanon and Isreal, but the Iranian funded Hezbollah group which has been firing missles into Isreal. Remember when Isreal left Southern Lebanon without coming to any agreements with Lebanon Hezbollah filled the vacum ISREAL created in the area, as well as giving Hamus what they would claim as a victory. This generally comes from Isreal acting unilaterly when leaving Lebanon. In general many of Isreals problems is because they often act unilaterly without coming to agreements. Now back onto the issue at Question. Hamus are attacking Isreal not the Lebanoness government, but infrastructure is being targeted which effects everyone in this war torn nation. Indeed Isreal's enemy is Hamus, but attacking Lebanon is angering many of the regional governments around the area, creating more disenfranchised who will now be drawn into groups like Hamus and Hezbollah.

I can not see how this current conflic will help Isreal or peace. Indeed the short term outcome may be peace but the long term will be an increase membership in terrorist orginization and an increase in extremism in islamic factions.

The people who tend to over simplify this issue are usually wrong. If Isreal really wanted peace with it's nabours it would bolster support from the United nations. The current troops in the area do not have the correct mandate to stop both sides, the fire power to uphold borders, nor the manpower to be a threat to either side.

 

[earth_as_one]

Missed one lie.

Those soldiers Hezbollah were in Lebanon when they were captured not Israel.

THE TWO ISRAELI SOLDIERS
WERE CAPTURED IN LEBANON

does that change anything?

 

[gopher]

Colpy wrote "ISRAEL DID NOT START THIS".

Now re-read my previously posted link,

http://www.middleeastnews.com/unresolutionslist.html


Whether you wish to believe it or not, Israel has violated UN resolutions far more often than has any other nation. If you have any proof to the contrary, show me what it is --- do not merely assert and re-assert the patently false claim that Israel is oh-so-ever innocent.

 

[Freethinker]

Re: RE: Common lies in the Lebanon war debates.

Missed one lie.

Those soldiers Hezbollah were in Lebanon when they were captured not Israel.

THE TWO ISRAELI SOLDIERS
WERE CAPTURED IN LEBANON

does that change anything?

This is yet another lie that just popped on the scene with the anti-Israeli bloggers. But it has zero veracity. This was a very detailed and planned raid across the border specifically with the purpose of capturing Israeli soldier to use as bargaining chips. Conspiracy theorist here don't seem to believe the "Zionist" controlled western media.

But I wonder if they include Aljazeera in that list of Zionist controlled media:
http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/35772526-C1A8-4599-868C-E513C4F29C9B.htm
July 12
Hezbollah fighters seize two Israeli soldiers in a cross-border raid. Three Israeli soldiers are also killed in the attack.

It says it will release them if Israel frees Palestinian prisoners held in Israeli jails.

"Fulfilling its pledge to liberate the prisoners and detainees, the Islamic Resistance ... captured two Israeli soldiers at the border with occupied Palestine," a Hezbollah statement said.

It should be clear to anyone with a shred of intellectual honesty that this recent anti Israeli blogger statement is nothing but a fiction.

It is also clear that anyone quick to pounce on this as more "proof" of their pet theories has a clear bias that they want to exploit and will not let facts /truth get in the way.

So yes this is a perfect example of the lies that heavily biased people will resort to, in order to "win" their argument.

 

[Colpy]

Re: RE: Common lies in the Lebanon war debates.

Colpy wrote "ISRAEL DID NOT START THIS".

Now re-read my previously posted link,

http://www.middleeastnews.com/unresolutionslist.html


Whether you wish to believe it or not, Israel has violated UN resolutions far more often than has any other nation. If you have any proof to the contrary, show me what it is --- do not merely assert and re-assert the patently false claim that Israel is oh-so-ever innocent.

Where did I say Israel was at all times innocent?

Where did you possibly get the idea I give a damn about UN resolutions?

I said "Israel did not start THIS". Israel abandoned Lebanon in 2000, and accepted the border as set by THE UNITED NATIONS!

 

[gopher]

RE: Common lies in the Le


Where did I say Israel was at all times innocent?


Now you are hedging.

When we first discussed the demerits of Bush's war upon Iraq his defenders all said that it was justified because Saddam violated UN resolutions. When we American patriots said that Israel violated FAR more UN resolutions and was far more deserving of interventionism the right wingers all conveniently sidestepped the issue.

The criminal war in Iraq continues unabated. It is time to appy the same standard to all sides on a consistent basis.

 

[akpower]

RE: Common lies in the Le

Attacking a country can only be justified if that "country" itself wages a war. Hezbollah is a group, and has nothing to do with Lebanese govt.

Israel is in it because of those 2 soldiers and because Israel feels threatened by Hezbollah. So, if God forbid tomorrow Iran attacks Israel because it feels threatened by the aggressive attitude of Israel, everyone who agrees with Israeli behavior shd then also agree with that move?

This is a vicious circle, but no war can ever be justified unless that one country attacks the other.

 

[Freethinker]

RE: Common lies in the Le

Officially, Hezbollah is part of the governing coalition of Lebanon.

Unoficially, Hezbollah is the defacto government and army of south lebanon. It administers the services, stockpiles weapons etc...

However you look at it, it would be disingenuous to suggest Hezbollah has nothing to do with the government. It is the government.

Regardless, you don't get a free pass to allow attacks at anohter state by saying the government didn't do it.

 

[Colpy]

Re: RE: Common lies in the Le

Where did I say Israel was at all times innocent?


Now you are hedging.

When we first discussed the demerits of Bush's war upon Iraq his defenders all said that it was justified because Saddam violated UN resolutions. When we American patriots said that Israel violated FAR more UN resolutions and was far more deserving of interventionism the right wingers all conveniently sidestepped the issue.

The criminal war in Iraq continues unabated. It is time to appy the same standard to all sides on a consistent basis.

OKAY....Israel then, is now fighting to enforce UN resolutions calling for the disarming of Hezbollah and the extension of Lebanese sovereignty into south Lebanon via the Lebanese Army.

Resolution 1559.
Nice of the Israelis to show such support for the UN, eh?

 

[iARTthere4iam]

How useless to have the UN forces in Lebanon when they have no mandate or arms to do anything. Israel can't rely on the UN protecting them, they would have long ago been pushed into the sea if they waited for others to protect them

 

[gopher]

Nice of the Israelis to show such support for the UN, eh?



Oh yes (chuckle) - very "nice".

Now all they have to do is to support the UN by enforcing just a few more such as these:


http://www.middleeastnews.com/unresolutionslist.html

 

[lo2]

I am afraid not

 

[Freethinker]

Another pattern emerges. And that is one of willfull gullability to anything, no matter how far fetched, as long as it is damning to Israel, it must be true.

Case 1: Was that the attack that captured soldiers occured inside Lebanon. Unsupported by day 1 facts, unsupported by mainstream media (including Ajazeera that paragon of Zionist propaganda apparently), unsupported by Hezbollahs own statement. Readily believed by those who never miss an opportunity to kick Israel.

Case 2: Kofi Annan claims UN attack was deliberate. Now the same crowd again chimes in with glee. Disregarding that this statement doesn't really make a lot of sense. Israel is an open democracy, there is a complete chain of command. Ordering such an attack would be political suicide for Israel, not to mention it presents no benefit. The Canadian who was so tragically killed in this incident reported to CTV days before that they was constant Hezbollah/IDF activity and that they had come under fire, but it was not intentional targetting, but tactical necessity.

The logic of the behavior seems to be along the lines that A: Israel is evil, B: therefore any that shows Israel is evil, is automatically true.

At best this is sloppy thinking. More likely it is using any amunnition to smear what is percieved as the enemy without letting credulity of the evidence get in the way.

 

[humanbeing]

RE: Common lies in the Le

Israel has violated UN resolutions far more often than has any other nation

The US has vetoed UN resolutions far more often than has any other nation since 1972.

Might be an interesting correlation, seeing as most of the vetoes relate directly to Israel. I wonder...

 

[thomaska]

The UN in action....

 

[Colpy]

How useless to have the UN forces in Lebanon when they have no mandate or arms to do anything. Israel can't rely on the UN protecting them, they would have long ago been pushed into the sea if they waited for others to protect them

Yes.

To keep very lightly armed peacekeepers in place when suddenly there is no peace to keep strikes me as absolutely typical of the UN. Idiotically dogmatic, careless of their soldiers' lives, and just plain old dumbass.

Remember the cornered Belgian paras in Rwanda?

 

[Logic 7]

During this conflict I have seen the same intellectually dishonest comments repeated over and over again usually by the bleeding hearts club. Most of these are assertions are blatantly untrue and they are repeated over and over again. Is it ignorance or dishonesty while trying to prove their point. I don't know. But after pointing out correct info and seeing the same people make the same claims, I think dishonesty is a bigger factor. Is it be possible for bleeding hearts to speak to the topic at all without resorting to obvious misrepresentations?

1: Israel is purposefully targetting civilians.
works.

I always thought canadians made more sense than americans, but i was wrong, can you please tell me why israel has the right to do whatever they want in the name of self defense, in return, everything arabs does they are terrorist??




If hezbollah, would have done 10% of what israel has done to lebenon, what do you think would have happen to lebenon??