Christianity and Religion

[cj44]

You have not denied one, Motar.
How about another six.

11. Motar: the rapture
Gerry: nonsense
12:.Motar: justification by faith
Gerry: by faith and good works
13. Motar: hell is real
Gerry: the notion of hell is incompatible with a god of love
14. Motar: the Book of Revelation as prophecy
Gerry: the Apocalypse is a description of early Christians in the Roman empire
15. Motar: communion as symbolic
Gerry: literal body and blood
16. Motar: Mary had other children
Gerry: The immaculate conception of the Virgin Mary, no sin, no other children

Spade:
1. Big Bang or Intelligent Design - Faith trumps
2. 4.5 billion or 6000 years - who cares. Don't think God will give us a quiz on this one.
3. Evolution or Garden of Eden - see #2
4. dark side or the apple - maybe we have a dark side because of the apple
5. flood myth or true - is believing one way or another dependant on salvation? No,
6. another is the bible myth or true debate - How much of the Bible must be believed to be saved?
7. getting a little bias here - see #2, #3, #5, #6
8. Pope antichrist or no - this has what to do with salvation?
9. stuff just hits the fan or by God's plan - both, the Lord directs our steps but probably isn't responsible for when we open a cupboard and a plate falls on our head - unless that is we need a crack to the head
10. six sacrament, no sacraments or 20 - a heart could believe any or none of those options and still be saved, no one knows the point another is in sanctification I am glad God is patient with us.
11. Rapture or Nonsense - back to the Bible Myth or Truth debate
12. faith or faith & works - not able to tackle this one in a brief manner. Salvation by Faith Alone and works will follow as the believer is a new Creation in Christ. Our dark side or the apple enjoys judging others on this.
13. hell or no hell - are we only to adopt the warm and fuzzy verse of the Bible?
14. Apaclpyse or No - see #13
15. communion just symbolic or real - Did Jesus say we must accurately define the elements of communion to be saved? If one believes in transubstantiation over symbolism does one or the other lose salvation?
16. Mary no children or more than Jesus - Does knowing the right answer save us?

Spade, you make salvation sound like a game show. It isn't about having all the answers. Faith of a mustard seed. That suggests to me that God doesn't expect us to get everything right. Just maybe he sees some of us (and I include myself) as getting the most important thing right (faith, even if not yet perfect) and sees that we have some other things really balled up.

 

[Cliffy]

Cliffy, I have posted that I do not presume to know who has faith. Nor do I know where their faith is placed. Being that this is a forum for discussing matters of faith, my thoughts on the matter stem from what Jesus taught. I think if Jesus was in fact God, and I do believe He was, we should study his words in faith. No one can come to know him except through the Spirit.

In order to bring the "good news" to others, one has to presume that they do not know god in the fist place.
An aboriginal friend of mine was up in Yellow Knife when pope John Paul made a stop there to apologized to the aboriginal people for the church having the presumption to think they were "bringing god to the heathens" when in fact, he acknowledged, the aboriginal people already had a strong relationship with god long before Europeans invaded this land.

Evangelicals are right now in Africa, influencing governments like Uganda, to pass laws condemning homosexuals to death because they cherry picked a few passages from the OT to justify their own homophobia. That is beyond gross interference in the name of your god that i can think of at the moment. Taking your "good news" out into the world is beyond presumptuous, bordering on criminal.

 

[Spade]

Well, yes, but "Do this in memory of me" is not a summation of transubstantiation in the two species-bread and wine.

 

[gerryh]

Well, yes, but "Do this in memory of me" is not a summation of transubstantiation in the two species-bread and wine.

he says a hell of a lot more than those 6 words.

 

[Spade]

Motar, you agree then that there are deep divisions in belief under the umbrella term-Christianity.

 

[gerryh]

Motar, you agree then that there are deep divisions in belief under the umbrella term-Christianity.

What's your point Spade?

 

[Spade]

he says a hell of a lot more than those 6 words.

Well, all can quote from the liturgy.

"This is my body which shall be given up for you..."
"This is the cup of the new and everlasting covenant...This is my blood"

 

[cj44]

In order to bring the "good news" to others, one has to presume that they do not know god in the fist place.
An aboriginal friend of mine was up in Yellow Knife when pope John Paul made a stop there to apologized to the aboriginal people for the church having the presumption to think they were "bringing god to the heathens" when in fact, he acknowledged, the aboriginal people already had a strong relationship with god long before Europeans invaded this land.

Evangelicals are right now in Africa, influencing governments like Uganda, to pass laws condemning homosexuals to death because they cherry picked a few passages from the OT to justify their own homophobia. That is beyond gross interference in the name of your god that i can think of at the moment. Taking your "good news" out into the world is beyond presumptuous, bordering on criminal.

Along with true believers there will be false prophets. We have to be careful.

As far as presumption to spread the Good News. Since this is a faith forum, I feel open discussion is welcomed. I'm not offended by others beliefs and they can freely tell me about them.

As for the evangelicals condemning homosexuals to death in Africa - those "evangelicals" are obviously in direct opposition to the Word of God.

Motar, you agree then that there are deep divisions in belief under the umbrella term-Christianity.

Spade, do you think as Christians we all have to believe exactly the same? Are we not allowed to question and have a difference of opinion? If you catch one of us thinking differently on one item, do you then throw all of Christianity under the bus? You put a heavy weight on the conscience.

 

[Spade]

My point is in answer to Motar's supposition when he asked his question that there are really no divisions; that he doesn't view other Christians as heretics. A somewhat dishonest position.
Acknowledgement of those difference accentuates the personal nature of belief/non belief; that "truth is at the bottom of a bottomless well".

 

[gerryh]

My point is in answer to Motar's supposition when he asked his question that there are really no divisions; that he doesn't view other Christians as heretics. A somewhat dishonest position.
Acknowledgement of those difference accentuates the personal nature of belief/non belief; that "truth is at the bottom of a bottomless well".

and why is that a "dishonest" position?

Personally, I don't consider Muslims, taoists, Hindu's, Budhists, Sihks, etc, etc, etc, as "heretics". Why would I consider other "Christians" as "heretics"? I might consider some of their views as "out to lunch". I might consider some even less than that, but heresy? That is not up to me.

 

[Spade]

But denying science because of scripture written by man is the fundamentalists' folly.

And no, Gerry, your position is not Motar's. I respect your position.

 

[Dexter Sinister]

Mans inhumanity to man.

Yes, there's that element about it, but if this deity has the characteristics usually ascribed to him, he could have made us such that we'd treat each other a little better so that kind of thing wouldn't happen, or he could put a stop to it. He didn't, and doesn't. If we're wicked and inhumane, it can only be because he made us that way with, again, full knowledge of the consequences. If you knowingly made something defective and it injured and killed a lot of people, you'd be responsible for the consequences, they'd be your fault. Same logic applies here.

 

[Sal]

Yes, there's that element about it, but if this deity has the characteristics usually ascribed to him, he could have made us such that we'd treat each other a little better so that kind of thing wouldn't happen, or he could put a stop to it. He didn't, and doesn't. If we're wicked and inhumane, it can only be because he made us that way with, again, full knowledge of the consequences. If you knowingly made something defective and it injured and killed a lot of people, you'd be responsible for the consequences, they'd be your fault. Same logic applies here.

yes but they get around this one by saying we were perfect and innocent until we choose to eat of the fruit of the tree of knowledge...our fault...everything is our fault

 

[Spade]

Dexter's position was eloquently argued by Hitchens. It is a compelling one.

 

[gerryh]

yes but they get around this one by saying we were perfect and innocent until we choose to eat of the fruit of the tree of knowledge...our fault...everything is our fault

That's right, sorry to say, but every one of your actions is your own fault. Not someone or something else. As much as Dexter would like to be able to push off his insecurities and wrong doings on some "superior" being. Can't do it. God gave us all "free will". It is our choices, and our consequences. Time to grow up and stop trying to blame someone else for your own faults.

 

[Spade]

yes but they get around this one by saying we were perfect and innocent until we choose to eat of the fruit of the tree of knowledge...our fault...everything is our fault

No it cannot be our fault any more it it a cat's fault for being a feline.
Humanity can progress, treat each other and the environment more kindly, but all of that can be done, and done much more ethically, than when deceived by promise of Elysian Fields.

 

[Sal]

That's right, sorry to say, but every one of your actions is your own fault. Not someone or something else. As much as Dexter would like to be able to push off his insecurities and wrong doings on some "superior" being. Can't do it. God gave us all "free will". It is our choices, and our consequences. Time to grow up and stop trying to blame someone else for your own faults.

every one of my actions is only my fault if I accept that I have free will. I do believe I have free will and that it is within my power to make choices for the better or the worse of myself and others. However God placed the tree of knowledge in the garden knowing exactly what would happen that man would eat of the tree. If one believes in that particular line of creation that is, and I do not.

 

[gerryh]

every one of my actions is only my fault if I accept that I have free will. I do believe I have free will and that it is within my power to make choices for the better or the worse of myself and others. However God placed the tree of knowledge in the garden knowing exactly what would happen that man would eat of the tree. If one believes in that particular line of creation that is, and I do not.

So, you don't believe in it, and I know Dexter doesn't believe in it, then why bring it into an argument? If it is all bullshyte, then why use it? You enjoy spreading bullshyte around?

 

[Sal]

So, you don't believe in it, and I know Dexter doesn't believe in it, then why bring it into an argument? If it is all bullshyte, then why use it? You enjoy spreading bullshyte around?

I brought it up because it was relevant to what Dexter had said.

Also for the record, I do not label it as bullshyte...you did.

 

[gerryh]

I brought it up because it was relevant to what Dexter had said.

So, something that is considered a fantasy, by both of you, is relevant. I see. Actually, no I don't see. I just can't fathom how any intelligent adult could bring up something that he/she considers to be a fantasy, or a falsehood and use it as an argument.