Christian Nation?
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Only if Jesus Christ was in charge! I don't mean silent partner. I mean right there running the show. Kicking ass!
Cheers
M
Cheers
M
I would be in favor of a TRUE Christian nation not one that is set up by mere fascists. Take the pope for example, he calls himself the "holy father". I mean are you kidding me, in the bible it is clearly stated that you shall have no other father but God himself.
To speak the language of the gospel? Greek? More of the world speaks English, and why would we speak Greek anyway, where in the bible does it mention speaking the language of the "gospel"? Why would all of us have to change our native tongue to follow whoever posted those ridiculous food for thoughts at the top? Your idea of a Christian nation mind as well be that of a tyrant, forcing others to change to meet your lame idea. My message to whomever posted this forum is that know your stuff before you start posting such nonsense.
All people in the world from past to present and even those awaiting to be born in the future have been born with a freedom of choice. So use it. I am a Christian man but not a follower of the Catholic ways. I am not perfect, but I call it like i see it. I mean in II Timothy of the bible it tells you to not run a church if you cannot run your own family. Then why are priests not married? No wonder why the catholic church has the sexual problems they do. If you'd let them have a wife maybe the innocent alter boys wouldn't get molested. And what bible on earth says anything about purgatory? If such a place truly exists, then Christ the very God whom you Catholics serve died in vain. Think about it, if you were sent to a chamber where your sins get "purged", what did Christ die for? Didn't he die for the sin of the world? HELLO! How many of you Catholics actually know what you are reading in the bible, do you understand it at all?
Forgive me for being so direct, but come on people, open your eyes and stop being so narrow-minded and closed off from God. No where in the bible does it say anuthing about praying to mary either. She's hardly even mentioned in the bible. Granted she was chosen to give birth to Christ, but that doesn't mean we should pray to her. She is the earthly mother of Christ, not really his mother. The holy trinity consists, of God the father, the son, and the holy spirit. Where in that trinity do you see the mother? Get real people. And you guys pray to the dead popes. The pope can't hear you, only God can, the pope is only human too. I think people fail to remember that no human is better than the next.
God doesn't give any human super powers. Not even Moses, Moses didn't part the red sea, God did. Everything anyone has or had done was done according to His will, remember we were all born with free will, the freedom to choose, He already knows what we will do before we even do it, which is why he begs and pleads with us to do differently, But we as the human race still choose to do wrong because we just do, it's our choice. God will not take that away from us.
He is a loving parent who can only show us the way, not make us take it no matter what, because he is true to his promises.
To speak the language of the gospel? Greek? More of the world speaks English, and why would we speak Greek anyway, where in the bible does it mention speaking the language of the "gospel"? Why would all of us have to change our native tongue to follow whoever posted those ridiculous food for thoughts at the top? Your idea of a Christian nation mind as well be that of a tyrant, forcing others to change to meet your lame idea. My message to whomever posted this forum is that know your stuff before you start posting such nonsense.
All people in the world from past to present and even those awaiting to be born in the future have been born with a freedom of choice. So use it. I am a Christian man but not a follower of the Catholic ways. I am not perfect, but I call it like i see it. I mean in II Timothy of the bible it tells you to not run a church if you cannot run your own family. Then why are priests not married? No wonder why the catholic church has the sexual problems they do. If you'd let them have a wife maybe the innocent alter boys wouldn't get molested. And what bible on earth says anything about purgatory? If such a place truly exists, then Christ the very God whom you Catholics serve died in vain. Think about it, if you were sent to a chamber where your sins get "purged", what did Christ die for? Didn't he die for the sin of the world? HELLO! How many of you Catholics actually know what you are reading in the bible, do you understand it at all?
Forgive me for being so direct, but come on people, open your eyes and stop being so narrow-minded and closed off from God. No where in the bible does it say anuthing about praying to mary either. She's hardly even mentioned in the bible. Granted she was chosen to give birth to Christ, but that doesn't mean we should pray to her. She is the earthly mother of Christ, not really his mother. The holy trinity consists, of God the father, the son, and the holy spirit. Where in that trinity do you see the mother? Get real people. And you guys pray to the dead popes. The pope can't hear you, only God can, the pope is only human too. I think people fail to remember that no human is better than the next.
God doesn't give any human super powers. Not even Moses, Moses didn't part the red sea, God did. Everything anyone has or had done was done according to His will, remember we were all born with free will, the freedom to choose, He already knows what we will do before we even do it, which is why he begs and pleads with us to do differently, But we as the human race still choose to do wrong because we just do, it's our choice. God will not take that away from us.
He is a loving parent who can only show us the way, not make us take it no matter what, because he is true to his promises.
DS, I'm no more twisting logic than you. I haven't said that combining religious and secular authority is a way to avoid tyranny, nor even that a purely secular authority is any more likely thaqn any other to result in a tyranny. My point through this whole thread is simply this: the morality espoused by Jesus in the Gospels is one whose application to a society would result in laws that seek to make sure that people don't go hungry, are protected from violence, theft and greed.
What the dim-witted primitives and greedy hucksters who call themselves "Christians" while supporting war, greed and bigotry fantasize about is what Stalin had and Osama wants.
There are a large number of people who take the Golden Rule as understood by their religions who culd live in harmony with others in a secular state, and were these people to create laws based on their understanding of religious texts, would be able to imagine societies every bit as fair and inclusive as any that take the non-existence of of God as a given.
Knowing, but not caring that I'll porbably piss off both extremes, I think this "theist" vs "atheist" debate is a red herring.
Neither side has a monopoly on brains, morals or attractive women.
The real issue, IMHO, is greed vs humanity. Historically, religion has far more often been the champion of greed, it's true, but it has also given courage to movements concerned with humanity.
My limited exposure to the writings of various religions has convinced me that there is a lot of eternal (for our species) wisdom in all the religious writings that is not expressible in the language of scientifc or positivist thought. I think that as guardians of that wisdom, all religions have value.
As to whether I'd really want to live in a "Christian" nation?
Well, if Preston Manning, that Phelps yahoo, Pat Robertson and Billy Graham are the best that "Christianity" has to offer then I'll pass. Given a time machine, the Dark Ages is not where I'd choose to go.
What the dim-witted primitives and greedy hucksters who call themselves "Christians" while supporting war, greed and bigotry fantasize about is what Stalin had and Osama wants.
There are a large number of people who take the Golden Rule as understood by their religions who culd live in harmony with others in a secular state, and were these people to create laws based on their understanding of religious texts, would be able to imagine societies every bit as fair and inclusive as any that take the non-existence of of God as a given.
Knowing, but not caring that I'll porbably piss off both extremes, I think this "theist" vs "atheist" debate is a red herring.
Neither side has a monopoly on brains, morals or attractive women.
The real issue, IMHO, is greed vs humanity. Historically, religion has far more often been the champion of greed, it's true, but it has also given courage to movements concerned with humanity.
My limited exposure to the writings of various religions has convinced me that there is a lot of eternal (for our species) wisdom in all the religious writings that is not expressible in the language of scientifc or positivist thought. I think that as guardians of that wisdom, all religions have value.
As to whether I'd really want to live in a "Christian" nation?
Well, if Preston Manning, that Phelps yahoo, Pat Robertson and Billy Graham are the best that "Christianity" has to offer then I'll pass. Given a time machine, the Dark Ages is not where I'd choose to go.
Re: RE: Christian Nation?
If we allow his spirit to work through the bodies of his devotees, we can build the kingdom of God on earth. God's prophecies can never be altered. If he said "thy kingdome come", then it will come. the question though, is will it come throug us or through someone else? I'd hate to live in God's Kingdome and then, when facing Him at death, must confess that I contributed nothing to make it all happen, but rather that it was everyone else's work.
I'd rather that if prophecy is to be fulfilled, that I be a contributor and not an obstacle to it. I'd like that it hapen not despite me, but rather through my help too. And I think that is true of every Crusader for Christ.
Retired_Can_Soldier said:
If we allow his spirit to work through the bodies of his devotees, we can build the kingdom of God on earth. God's prophecies can never be altered. If he said "thy kingdome come", then it will come. the question though, is will it come throug us or through someone else? I'd hate to live in God's Kingdome and then, when facing Him at death, must confess that I contributed nothing to make it all happen, but rather that it was everyone else's work.
I'd rather that if prophecy is to be fulfilled, that I be a contributor and not an obstacle to it. I'd like that it hapen not despite me, but rather through my help too. And I think that is true of every Crusader for Christ.
Well, at least in the West, it might have something to do with the establishment of Christianity by Roman emperors and the fact that the Catholic church was the first multi-national corporation.
Religion has a lot of influence over superstitious people, religious leaders are human and will suck up to the powerful (e.g. Billy Graham), which gives authorities the appearance of being tight with God. Churches were often the guardians of knowledge and higher learning, this also gives power... Power, the appearance of Holiness, the ear of kings... hard to pay attention to little carpenter who got himself crucified by people like you, whilst you're living high on the hog, I'd reckon.... and the list goes on...
Re: RE: Christian Nation?
Do you think that maybe there's a reason jesus has been a 'silent partner' for so long? :wink:
Retired_Can_Soldier said:
Do you think that maybe there's a reason jesus has been a 'silent partner' for so long? :wink:
Jay, I didn't mean specifically by people like you, Jay. :laughing5:
it's in the context of "being in power and living high on the hog"...come on, man, get a grip, it's not ALWAYS about you, y'know!
And I already gave you the reasons.
Too busy "kicking ass" in Andromeda and couldn't find a ride back???
You gotta love that. :laughing3: :laughing3: :laughing3:
Yup, "Blessed are the ass-kickers, for clean boots await them in Heaven!"
Re: RE: Christian Nation?
Something distracting you today pastafarian? You don't seem to have your usual clarity of thought. Nobody, and certainly not me, suggested you'd said any such thing.
pastafarian said:
Something distracting you today pastafarian? You don't seem to have your usual clarity of thought. Nobody, and certainly not me, suggested you'd said any such thing.
Don't like the true Jay. Tough beans.
It was a European war, that had another aspect to it when Japan got involved. Just like world war 1.
And I think I will pass on this Christian nation thingy. Heathens or Asatru people don't really jive since you tried to destroy us.
It was a European war, that had another aspect to it when Japan got involved. Just like world war 1.
And I think I will pass on this Christian nation thingy. Heathens or Asatru people don't really jive since you tried to destroy us.
I never heard of this, Christians tried to destroy Norse Paganism? You call missionaries on Northern Europe a "destructive" force? You making this up as you go along Jersay or what? Linky?
Many adherents of historical Germanic paganism and Germanic Neopaganism[citation needed] have been persecuted, mainly by Christians. Persecution may include unwarranted arrest, imprisonment, beating, torture, execution, confiscation or destruction of property, or incitement to hatred.
Contents [hide]
1 Middle Ages
2 Nazi persecution
3 Contemporary
4 See also
5 External links
[edit]
Middle Ages
While the early Christianization of the various Germanic peoples was achieved by various means, and was partly facilitated by the prestige of the Christian Roman Empire amongst European pagans. The rise of Germanic Christianity was, thus, mainly due to voluntary conversion, from the 8th century on the Continent mainly pursued by the Anglo-Saxon mission. In some instances, however, conversion was forceful. Charlemagne in the course of the Saxon Wars converted Saxon pagans by force. In 772 he destroyed their Irminsul, and in 782 he allegedly ordered the beheading of 4,500 Saxon nobles who were caught practicing paganism in spite of being baptized, the so-called Blood court of Verden, although modern historians think it likely that Charlemagne exiled (delocabat) the apostates rather than beheading (decollabat) them.
The Christianization of Northern Europe in the 11th century was accomplished with a significant amount of violence between pagan and Christian factions, qualifying as generic warfare rather than "persecution". The conflict was brought to a point between the pagan king Blot-Sweyn and his Christian brother-in-law Ingold I in the 1180s. After Ingold was forced into exile, he returned to Sweden in 1087, and having arrived at Old Uppsala, he surrounded the hall of Blot-Sweyn with his húskarls, and set the hall on fire, slaying the king as he escaped from the burning house. The burning of the Temple at Uppsala probably dates to the same time. However, this particular conflict more closely resembles the classical feud found in Scandinavian sagaic literature rather than religious fanaticism. In 10th century Iceland, there was similar tension between the Christian and pagan factions, but violent clashes were avoided by the decision of the Althing in AD 1000 to put the arbitration between them to Þorgeir Ljósvetningagoði, who opted that the country should convert to Christianity as a whole, while pagan worship in private would continue to be tolerated.
In Sweden Gutalagen (an early Swedish law book) officially in use until 1595, but in practice until 1645, stated that performing blóts was punishable by a fine.[1]
[edit]
Nazi persecution
The leaders of the Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei (NSDAP, or Nazi Party) in Germany during the early 20th century, according to their private writings, did not wish to encourage paganism of any sort unless it served to further the goals of the NSDAP in promoting their romantic concept and public policy of pan-Germanic ethnic consciousness. Germanic Christianity, however, was officially sanctioned during the Nazi regime. Throughout the Third Reich and the lands that came under Nazi rule, Nazi totalitarianism required that all religious activity conform to the policies of the Nazi party. Some adherents of the Germanische Glaubens-Gemeinschaft ended up in concentration camps.[citation needed] This ran counter to currents of Nazi mysticism that played an important part in the early times of Nazism. This change of focus during the 1930 also led to the marginalization of Rudolf Hess.
The Germanische Glaubens-Gemeinschaft was heavily suppressed by the Nazis in the 1930s. In 1933, the leader of GGG (Rudolf von Sebettendorff) was arrested and exiled.[citation needed] Being a current or former member of an Odinist organisation disqualified anyone from holding rank or office within the NSDAP.[citation needed] In 1936 the runemaster Friedrich Barnharb Marby, a follower of Guido von List's occult "ariosophic" Armanenschaft was arrested and sent to a concentration camp at Flossenberg. He was released from the Dachau concentration camp in 1945.[citation needed] Many other members ended up in the concentration camps, although as far as can be told only one member was actually killed.[citation needed] The full focus of the state was not aimed at religious minorities until the June 9, 1941 when Reinhard Heydrich, the head of the security police, banned a large number of spiritual practices. The organisations were dissolved, their property confiscated, and many of their leaders arrested. [2] [3]
[edit]
Contemporary
Contemporary adherents of the various forms of Germanic Neopaganism have faced hostility from Christian groups and individuals.[citation needed]
In November 10, 1999 the International Asatru/Odinic Alliance (IAOA) accused the F.B.I. with violating its First Amendment rights to freedom of religion, free speech, and peaceful assembly. The reason given for this accusation was the propagation of numerous false statements and innuendos about the group in the FBI's "Project Megiddo" report.
The Anti-Defamation League publishes a list of symbols used by anti-Semitic groups. After a letter campaign pointing out that some of these symbols are also used in contexts unrelated to Neo-Nazism by Germanic Neopagans, the ADL included a disclaimer on their site to that effect.
In Texas the Texas Department of Criminal Justice don't allow inmates to study or use the runes in any way. First they were not allowed to receive publications that contain runes, but after the runes were cut out the policy was changed so that inmates may not receive any Asatru publications. The prison authorities claim runes are related to hate groups and used as 'secret codes' for communications between gang members. [4]
According to Mark Pitcavage, prisons differentiate between racist and non-racist Neopagans, saying that the racist women's group Sigrdrifa, which has chapters in the United States and Canada, runs a special "Odinism in Prison" project. Imprisoned right-wing terrorist David Lane, serving a 190-year sentence in federal prison, is one of the principal propagandists for a violently racist version of Odinism. [5]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Heathens
Contents [hide]
1 Middle Ages
2 Nazi persecution
3 Contemporary
4 See also
5 External links
[edit]
Middle Ages
While the early Christianization of the various Germanic peoples was achieved by various means, and was partly facilitated by the prestige of the Christian Roman Empire amongst European pagans. The rise of Germanic Christianity was, thus, mainly due to voluntary conversion, from the 8th century on the Continent mainly pursued by the Anglo-Saxon mission. In some instances, however, conversion was forceful. Charlemagne in the course of the Saxon Wars converted Saxon pagans by force. In 772 he destroyed their Irminsul, and in 782 he allegedly ordered the beheading of 4,500 Saxon nobles who were caught practicing paganism in spite of being baptized, the so-called Blood court of Verden, although modern historians think it likely that Charlemagne exiled (delocabat) the apostates rather than beheading (decollabat) them.
The Christianization of Northern Europe in the 11th century was accomplished with a significant amount of violence between pagan and Christian factions, qualifying as generic warfare rather than "persecution". The conflict was brought to a point between the pagan king Blot-Sweyn and his Christian brother-in-law Ingold I in the 1180s. After Ingold was forced into exile, he returned to Sweden in 1087, and having arrived at Old Uppsala, he surrounded the hall of Blot-Sweyn with his húskarls, and set the hall on fire, slaying the king as he escaped from the burning house. The burning of the Temple at Uppsala probably dates to the same time. However, this particular conflict more closely resembles the classical feud found in Scandinavian sagaic literature rather than religious fanaticism. In 10th century Iceland, there was similar tension between the Christian and pagan factions, but violent clashes were avoided by the decision of the Althing in AD 1000 to put the arbitration between them to Þorgeir Ljósvetningagoði, who opted that the country should convert to Christianity as a whole, while pagan worship in private would continue to be tolerated.
In Sweden Gutalagen (an early Swedish law book) officially in use until 1595, but in practice until 1645, stated that performing blóts was punishable by a fine.[1]
[edit]
Nazi persecution
The leaders of the Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei (NSDAP, or Nazi Party) in Germany during the early 20th century, according to their private writings, did not wish to encourage paganism of any sort unless it served to further the goals of the NSDAP in promoting their romantic concept and public policy of pan-Germanic ethnic consciousness. Germanic Christianity, however, was officially sanctioned during the Nazi regime. Throughout the Third Reich and the lands that came under Nazi rule, Nazi totalitarianism required that all religious activity conform to the policies of the Nazi party. Some adherents of the Germanische Glaubens-Gemeinschaft ended up in concentration camps.[citation needed] This ran counter to currents of Nazi mysticism that played an important part in the early times of Nazism. This change of focus during the 1930 also led to the marginalization of Rudolf Hess.
The Germanische Glaubens-Gemeinschaft was heavily suppressed by the Nazis in the 1930s. In 1933, the leader of GGG (Rudolf von Sebettendorff) was arrested and exiled.[citation needed] Being a current or former member of an Odinist organisation disqualified anyone from holding rank or office within the NSDAP.[citation needed] In 1936 the runemaster Friedrich Barnharb Marby, a follower of Guido von List's occult "ariosophic" Armanenschaft was arrested and sent to a concentration camp at Flossenberg. He was released from the Dachau concentration camp in 1945.[citation needed] Many other members ended up in the concentration camps, although as far as can be told only one member was actually killed.[citation needed] The full focus of the state was not aimed at religious minorities until the June 9, 1941 when Reinhard Heydrich, the head of the security police, banned a large number of spiritual practices. The organisations were dissolved, their property confiscated, and many of their leaders arrested. [2] [3]
[edit]
Contemporary
Contemporary adherents of the various forms of Germanic Neopaganism have faced hostility from Christian groups and individuals.[citation needed]
In November 10, 1999 the International Asatru/Odinic Alliance (IAOA) accused the F.B.I. with violating its First Amendment rights to freedom of religion, free speech, and peaceful assembly. The reason given for this accusation was the propagation of numerous false statements and innuendos about the group in the FBI's "Project Megiddo" report.
The Anti-Defamation League publishes a list of symbols used by anti-Semitic groups. After a letter campaign pointing out that some of these symbols are also used in contexts unrelated to Neo-Nazism by Germanic Neopagans, the ADL included a disclaimer on their site to that effect.
In Texas the Texas Department of Criminal Justice don't allow inmates to study or use the runes in any way. First they were not allowed to receive publications that contain runes, but after the runes were cut out the policy was changed so that inmates may not receive any Asatru publications. The prison authorities claim runes are related to hate groups and used as 'secret codes' for communications between gang members. [4]
According to Mark Pitcavage, prisons differentiate between racist and non-racist Neopagans, saying that the racist women's group Sigrdrifa, which has chapters in the United States and Canada, runs a special "Odinism in Prison" project. Imprisoned right-wing terrorist David Lane, serving a 190-year sentence in federal prison, is one of the principal propagandists for a violently racist version of Odinism. [5]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Heathens
Jay, just so we're clear: I have the utmost repect for Dexter Sinister. His arguments are reasoned and, for the most part, are in tune with mine. I accused him of quibbling, but I tend to quibble far more with the content of his posts than wtih any other poster,'cause i don't out-and-out disagree with him. We may have slightly different positions, but you and I, for example, are on opposite sides of a canyon. For example, what you call Christianity bears no resemblance to anything I've seen in the Gospels...
DS, I did go overboard by interpreting
"Crusader, has it entirely escaped your notice that when societies combine religious and secular authorities in the same institutions, the results are generally pretty nasty tyrannies? "
as suggesting a causality, which you didn't.
And while it's impossible to argue with the statement as you typed it, and any government formed by the motley crew of fanatics and bumpkins who compose the most visible group of "Christians" in North America would most certainly be a pitiless and brutal tyranny, it irks me when these facts are used to discredit the teachings of the Jesus-character, which seem to me to be extremely wise and humane.
I suppose if intelligent, courageous Christians can't rescue the faith from the criminals and the idiots, then it should probbaly be flushed.
Anyway, I was sloppy and I admit it.
DS, I did go overboard by interpreting
"Crusader, has it entirely escaped your notice that when societies combine religious and secular authorities in the same institutions, the results are generally pretty nasty tyrannies? "
as suggesting a causality, which you didn't.
And while it's impossible to argue with the statement as you typed it, and any government formed by the motley crew of fanatics and bumpkins who compose the most visible group of "Christians" in North America would most certainly be a pitiless and brutal tyranny, it irks me when these facts are used to discredit the teachings of the Jesus-character, which seem to me to be extremely wise and humane.
I suppose if intelligent, courageous Christians can't rescue the faith from the criminals and the idiots, then it should probbaly be flushed.
Anyway, I was sloppy and I admit it.
The criminals always rise to the top of the christian curse and they're always put there buy the idiots, flushing is the fix.
Re: RE: Christian Nation?
Good clarification pastafarian, thanks for that; I didn't think you were up to your usual standards yesterday.
And I really like your phrase "the motley crew of fanatics and bumpkins." Gave me a good laugh on a day that was already in pretty good shape.
Good clarification pastafarian, thanks for that; I didn't think you were up to your usual standards yesterday.
And I really like your phrase "the motley crew of fanatics and bumpkins." Gave me a good laugh on a day that was already in pretty good shape.