Chavez orders troops to Venezuela's border with Colombia

[Toro]

They found in a notebook computer that Chavez had given $300 million to FARC.

No wonder Hugh got so huffy.

 

[Niflmir]

South America is the middle east of the 21st century it would seem.

 

[Cobalt_Kid]

So Chavez will be justified invading Columbia because they are bad and supported by the US. Interesting.

Saddam-Iraq BAD--- US Invades--- BAD
Paramilitary-Columbia Bad---- Chavez Invades---GOOD!

Once again...this has NOTHING to do with Venezuela but it is going to be interesting seeing how the left JUSTIFIES an Illegal war if it happens. The security of Venezuela is intact and Columbia is not a threat.

UNLESS NOW...Chavez feels justified to attack because he FEELS threatened. Now where has that train of thought been critisized?

Hmmmmmmm... I wonder.

I said nothing about a Venezualan invasion, where are you reading that from my posts?

The US has spent billions under Bush proping up the Columbian government and training and equiping it's military and has turned a local civil war into another front on his ill advised and stupidly run war on terror. Is it any wonder the region is in such a mess, the Bush adminstration can't leave office soon enough.

 

[Cobalt_Kid]

They found in a notebook computer that Chavez had given $300 million to FARC.

No wonder Hugh got so huffy.

Why not fund the FARC, the Chiquita fruit company was fined $25 million in US court for bankrolling and sending arms to the Columbian Paramilitaries who have killed a lot more people than FARC ever has. The whole region is a mess and Bush is partly responsible for the problem by treating a civil war like just another front on the war on terror.

 

[I think not]

I suppose it has fallen on deaf ears (or blind eyes) that FARC has been launching incursions into Columbia from neighboring countries. I'm sure I have read a similar situation somewhere before. Hmmmm.

 

[Cobalt_Kid]

I suppose it has fallen on deaf ears (or blind eyes) that FARC has been launching incursions into Columbia from neighboring countries. I'm sure I have read a similar situation somewhere before. Hmmmm.

So?

FARC and ELN are recognized terrorist groups...but so are the Paramilitaries which are backed by the Columbian elite and often by its military and police. There is no real law and order in Columbia which has been in a state of civil war for years. It's impossible to pick one side and claim it represents anything resembling freedom or justice in that country.

Like Afghanistan, and Iraq Bush has been trying to impose his war on terror on top of civil wars with predictable results. Great for the arms merchants everywhere, not so good for the people caught in the crossfire. The US has a lot of responsibility for the current violence.

It's hypocritcal to blame Chavez for what's going on there now...and typical of the right.

 

[I think not]

So?

So I suppose the Fenian Raids were no nevermind to you, eh?

FARC and ELN are recognized terrorist groups...but so are the Paramilitaries which are backed by the Columbian elite and often by its military and police. There is no real law and order in Columbia which has been in a state of civil war for years. It's impossible to pick one side and claim it represents anything resembling freedom or justice in that country.

I'm not picking a side, I merely highlighted the apparent core of the issue, which nobody is bothering to address. Should a disgruntled group like the FLQ decide to move to Maine and launch incursions into Quebec wouldn't y ou be bent out of shape?

Like Afghanistan, and Iraq Bush has been trying to impose his war on terror on top of civil wars with predictable results. Great for the arms merchants everywhere, not so good for the people caught in the crossfire. The US has a lot of responsibility for the current violence.

Uhm perhaps, but that's not the root of the issue here. the issue as much you try to deflect it, is neighboring countries harboring factions that use their country as launching pads for incursions.

It's hypocritcal to blame Chavez for what's going on there now...and typical of the right.

I'm not right and I'm not blaming Chavez. But he is a hypocrit nonetheless.

 

[Cobalt_Kid]

So I suppose the Fenian Raids were no nevermind to you, eh?

They don't bother me much. Some of my ancestors were running around hiding in the trees and taking pot shots at the brits back in the 1770s, they were considered terrorists by the British and many other Colonials. One persons terrorist is anothers freedom fighter, that's why it's always a risk getting invovled in foreign civil conflicts that are often hard to understand.

I'm not picking a side, I merely highlighted the apparent core of the issue, which nobody is bothering to address. Should a disgruntled group like the FLQ decide to move to Maine and launch incursions into Quebec wouldn't y ou be bent out of shape?

Probably, but I'd also be very angry if the upper class in Quebec was backing a Paramilitary force to eliminate anyone who stood up to them and threatened their power and wealth like in Columbia. The FARC is a reaction to an already existing social crisis in Columbia, they didn't create it.

Uhm perhaps, but that's not the root of the issue here. the issue as much you try to deflect it, is neighboring countries harboring factions that use their country as launching pads for incursions.

The problems are much more complex than the Bush adminstration has made them out to be. I understand America has been saddled with a less than brilliant leader for the last seven years and stupid cookie-cutter wars that just make bad situations worse are part of a sad legacy. What's going on in Columbia is a result of local social conditions that the US has made worse by backing one side instead of acting as a mediator.

I'm not right and I'm not blaming Chavez. But he is a hypocrit nonetheless.

Maybe not, but having lived in both countries (Canada/US) and seeing how different things are presented in the media, you're not getting much more than what the right wants you to see. Chavez wouldn't have the platform he does if Bush hadn't been alienating most of the rest of the world. Blaming one little country for the problems in the region is just more scapegoating...it may feel satisfying in the short term, but it's not going to solve anything.

 

[Praxius]

That is why I quoted that. The shoe is on the other foot now is it not? Here is the hero of the left pushing troops on the border because a Columbian Rebel got it. One of his boys became red jungle paint. So Chavez, their hero, is looking for trouble of the militarily kind.

But what I'm getting at is pretty much all parties seem to want to take pot shots at each other... it's a classic after school fight.

So you don't think the US should have gone into Afghanistan?

Nope... see that was a bully getting PO'd and taking it out on someone who didn't want to fight during recess. One of his friends peed the US off, they claimed they had nothing to do with it (Which seems plausable since they love to admit everything else) But Afghanistan was easier to beat up and make an example out of. As I see it.

And you think that because the US is involved in two illegal wars that it is OK for Chavez to start looking for a fight because we are doing the same thing?

Nope... we're just in no position to be dictating what not to do.... it's like the parent saying "Do as I say, not as I do" but we're not the parents.

 

[Praxius]

So Chavez will be justified invading Columbia because they are bad and supported by the US. Interesting.

Saddam-Iraq BAD--- US Invades--- BAD
Paramilitary-Columbia Bad---- Chavez Invades---GOOD!

lamo... that is kinda funny actually. But I'm not saying it's good.... but it'd probably be a semi-fair fight.

 

[Toro]

South America is the middle east of the 21st century it would seem.

Actually, I don't think this is the case. There isn't much religious strife and its far more open and progressive.

It has a long history of populism however, rooted as a response to Spanish colonialism. However, there are a lot of good things going on in South America, apart from the occasional demagogue.

 

[Praxius]

Update:

Colombian attack sparks war of words
http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNe...05/columbia_dispute_080305/20080305?hub=World

CUCUTA, Colombia -- Venezuela and Ecuador took their growing conflict with Colombia to the diplomatic front, seeking international condemnation of Colombia's deadly assault on a rebel base in Ecuador.

The two countries tightened their borders and were deploying thousands of troops, while Colombia on Tuesday pointed to documents found in a slain rebel leader's laptop that it claimed was proof of stunning links between the leftist guerrillas and Venezuelan leader Hugo Chavez.

Ecuador rejected a Colombian apology for the cross-border strike as insufficient, and sought to rally opposition during an emergency meeting of the Organization of American States.

The meeting was convened in Washington to help defuse one of South America's most volatile crises in years. Venezuela's justice minister declared that war "has already begun."

At Venezuela's border with Colombia, National Guard troops turned back Colombian cargo trucks under orders from Caracas.

Ecuadorean President Rafael Correa began a six-nation tour in Peru and Brazil, calling Colombian President Alvaro Uribe a liar who "wanted war." Correa warned that if the attack goes unpunished, "the region will be in danger, because the next victim could be Peru, it could be Brazil, Venezuela, Bolivia, any one of our countries."

At the moment, it's mostly a war of words, and other nations have tried to keep it that way, although many said Colombia was wrong to send troops into Ecuador. The military assault on Saturday killed 24 guerrillas, including Colombian rebel spokesman Raul Reyes, who was engaged in hostage talks with Venezuela, France and other countries.

President Bush backed Colombia and accused Chavez of "provocative maneuvers."

Uribe said Chavez should be prosecuted before the International Criminal Court for allegedly financing the Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia, or FARC. Uribe said documents found in a laptop seized in Reyes' camp showed Venezuela recently made a $300 million payment to the rebels.

Venezuela dismissed the allegations as lies and Foreign Minister Nicolas Maduro said the idea of prosecuting Chavez was "laughable." Justice Minister Ramon Rodiguez Chacin said the hand of Washington was behind Colombia's actions, declaring: "Our enemy is the empire."

Colombia also accused the rebels of trying to make a radioactive dirty bomb, although the documents it shared with reporters do not support that allegation, indicating instead that the rebels discussed the possibility of buying uranium to resell at a profit.

Ah, the first sign of BS and it came from Colombia.... smooth.

In Brazil, Correa suggested late Tuesday that the Colombian raid was carried out to prevent the liberation of rebel-held hostages. He offered no proof, but agreed with speculation that Reyes was targeted "to prevent a deal for the liberation of the hostages from going forward."

The FARC freed four hostages last week, and Chavez had pledged to try to win freedom for others, including French-Colombian politician Ingrid Betancourt.

The rebels said Tuesday that Reyes died "completing a mission to arrange, through President Chavez, a meeting" with French President Nicolas Sarkozy aimed at securing Betancourt's release.

In Washington, Ecuadorean Foreign Minister Maria Isabel Salvador said Colombia's apology was not enough, demanding that the OAS condemn the incursion, appoint a commission to investigate it and call an urgent meeting of the region's foreign ministers in the next week.

Colombia's attack on the camp just over a mile inside Ecuador reflected its frustration over the ability of rebels to take refuge across poorly patrolled borders.

Uribe said he would not allow his nation to be drawn into war.

Venezuela was sending about 9,000 soldiers -- 10 battalions -- to the border region as a "preventive" measure, retired Gen. Alberto Muller Rojas, a former top Chavez aide, told The Associated Press. Ecuador said it sent 3,200 troops to the border on Monday.

Venezuela's agriculture minister, Elias Jaua, said Venezuela had closed the border, which sees annual trade worth roughly $5 billion, to imports and exports.

Leonardo Mendez, a spokesman for a Colombian cargo transport association, said some 300 vehicles, including trucks carrying food, shoes, ceramics and other products, were stuck at one major border crossing.

Despite the shrill rhetoric from the Andean governments, there was little sign of tension in several border towns apart from the turning away of trucks.

Contenting themselves by calling Chavez "crazy", Colombian truckers lounged in the shade drinking beer and saying they hope the crisis will not persist long.

When the border is open, some 9,400 tons of merchandise cross each day between Colombia and Venezuela in both directions, said Jaime Sorzano, head of the cargo transport association.

"In the past, we've had episodes, problems, but like this crisis, no," he said. "It's unprecedented."

 

[EagleSmack]

But what I'm getting at is pretty much all parties seem to want to take pot shots at each other... it's a classic after school fight.

I think Columbia wanted simply to kill Columbian Rebels that sought and received sanctuary across the border in Ecuador. Ecuador has a right to be POed but they also should not allow Columbian Rebels to set up base camps. If the Columbian Govt. knew they were there then the Ecuadorean Govt. must have known as well.

Nope... see that was a bully getting PO'd and taking it out on someone who didn't want to fight during recess. One of his friends peed the US off, they claimed they had nothing to do with it (Which seems plausable since they love to admit everything else) But Afghanistan was easier to beat up and make an example out of. As I see it.

Well OK...that is your opinion and probably better debated on another thread somewhere. I do not think Afghanistan was viewed as an easy place. We all saw how the Soviets fared out there. I think it shocked everyone to see how the Northern Alliance, who held only a sliver of the north marched down rather quickly.

Nope... we're just in no position to be dictating what not to do.... it's like the parent saying "Do as I say, not as I do" but we're not the parents.

We are not the parents but I am just trying to point out a double standard which is developing. That it is OK for Chavez to threaten invasion...and possibly invade for an incident that had nothing to do with Venezuela. Why does he get a free pass? If the US put thousands of troops on the border with Venezuela the show of outrage would be deafening.

 

[Cobalt_Kid]

Considering the long record of state sponsored violence in Colombia I'd be very nervous if I was Chavez and other leaders in the region. The right-wing Colombian Paramilitaries were also declared a terrorist organization in 2001. They were supposed to have been demobilized in 2006 but evidence shows they are extending their power across many of the cities of Colombia. They use street gangs to assassinate human rights activists, political opponents and anyone they deem socially unacceptable.

Supported by rich Colombians and often the military, the Paramilitaries are making Colombia into the closest thing to a terror state in the region...and the US is supporting it.

 

[EagleSmack]

Considering the long record of state sponsored violence in Colombia I'd be very nervous if I was Chavez and other leaders in the region. The right-wing Colombian Paramilitaries were also declared a terrorist organization in 2001. They were supposed to have been demobilized in 2006 but evidence shows they are extending their power across many of the cities of Colombia. They use street gangs to assassinate human rights activists, political opponents and anyone they deem socially unacceptable.

Supported by rich Colombians and often the military, the Paramilitaries are making Colombia into the closest thing to a terror state in the region...and the US is supporting it.

So you would justify an invasion of Columbia by Venezuela because of Columbian Paramilitaries? Since it is Columbian violence on Columbians and has not spread to Venezuela just the mere thought that it COULD spread justifies Chavez going the next step. Like a pre-emptive strike if you will?

 

[Cobalt_Kid]

So you would justify an invasion of Columbia by Venezuela because of Columbian Paramilitaries? Since it is Columbian violence on Columbians and has not spread to Venezuela just the mere thought that it COULD spread justifies Chavez going the next step. Like a pre-emptive strike if you will?

I doubt Chavez or anybody is thinking of invading Colombia, it would make Iraq look like a cakewalk for an occupying force. I think Venezuela has the right to secure its borders though and as the Paramilitaries have pushed much of their opposition in the civil war into neighbouring states (with indirect US aid), it's the violence from Colombia that's spreading, not aggression from its neighbours.

 

[Praxius]

....... We are not the parents but I am just trying to point out a double standard which is developing. That it is OK for Chavez to threaten invasion...and possibly invade for an incident that had nothing to do with Venezuela. Why does he get a free pass? If the US put thousands of troops on the border with Venezuela the show of outrage would be deafening.

Fair enough, and I don't believe Chavez has the right to invade, you are correct. But so far the buildup is all for show and standard procedure when your neighbors are about to have a scuffle, and blame you directly for the problems (The 3 million funding they claim Chavez's government gave the group) - Which sounds kinda like they may take pot shots inside their border, just like they did when they killed these rebels in Ecuador.

Columbia's actions of incursion have automatically created this military buildup. Chavez does like to shoot his mouth off, but I've noticed he knows when to bite his tounge and when he says something, he usually sticks to it. He claims they do not want war, but will not tolerate interference beyond their borders from who he determined is the enemy.

Seems fair enough to me. If he makes the first military move in this situation, then yeah, he'd be out of line. But he's building up in what appears to be defense and he's backing Ecuador due to common interests.... Canada, the US or any other country which has allies would probably do the same.

 

[Praxius]

Update:

War of words opens LatAm summit
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7283151.stm

A regional summit of Latin American leaders has opened with a flurry of accusations over Colombia's cross-border raid into Ecuador.


Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez, who has rallied condemnation of Colombia, had called for a cooling of tensions over the incident.

But Ecuador's president, in his speech, attacked Colombian "aggression".

Colombia's Alvaro Uribe responded that he had deliberately not told Ecuador about the raid, to ensure its success.
Venezuela and Ecuador, who cut diplomatic ties and sent troops to their borders after Colombia's raid on a Farc rebel camp, have demanded a strong apology from Colombia.


The operation left some 20 dead, including a senior Farc commander, Raul Reyes.

But President Uribe told Latin American leaders gathered at the Rio Group summit in the Dominican Republic that if he had alerted Ecuador about the raid, it would have failed.

He said Ecuador's President Rafael Correa had not co-operated in the fight against terrorism, adding that the raid was "against one of the most tenacious terrorists in the history of humanity".

The summit's host, Dominican President Leonel Fernandez, had earlier said he hoped the summit would be a chance to "consolidate relations".

He said to be trying to find consensus on the wording of a declaration on the dispute.

Correspondents say key countries like Brazil and Chile will also be working to find a diplomatic solution to the crisis.

'Chill nerves'

Before the start of the summit, Mr Chavez said he hoped the summit would be positive.
"People should go cool off a bit, chill out their nerves," he told journalists at his hotel before leaving for the summit, AP news agency reports.
"I think the meeting today is going to be positive, because it is going to help the debate. We have to debate, talk, and this is the first step toward finding the road."


Mr Correa, who has been touring Latin American capitals to rally opposition to Colombia, said Colombia had to promise not to violate its neighbour's territory and end its allegations that Ecuador supported the guerrillas.

"Of course we can put an end to... the conflict in this meeting... It's as easy as hearing unconditional apologies from President Alvaro Uribe," Mr Correa said on arrival in the Dominican Republic.

For his part, Mr Chavez, a staunch opponent of the Bush administration, alleged that the US was involved in planning and directing the cross-border operation.

He repeatedly accuses the Colombian government, which receives billions of dollars in US aid to fight drug-trafficking, of being a lackey of Washington.

Arrests

Mr Uribe says he has already apologised to Ecuador and has also called on Colombia's neighbours to do more to stop rebels taking refuge in their territory.

On the eve of the summit, Ecuador announced that it had captured five alleged Farc guerrillas.

Defence minister Gustavo Larrea said the suspected rebels were detained by the army during a search of farms and houses close to the Colombian border.
The Rio Group meeting was scheduled long before the crisis erupted.

 

[gopher]

Good to see the leaders of Colombia, Ecuador, and Venezuela shaking hands on a peace deal today. Looks like Bush will not have the war he wanted there and that Halliburton is going to miss out on some expected war profits.

 

[mt_pockets1000]

Good to see the leaders of Colombia, Ecuador, and Venezuela shaking hands on a peace deal today. Looks like Bush will not have the war he wanted there and that Halliburton is going to miss out on some expected war profits.

Ah, man. I had the popcorn ready and the big comfy chair pulled up in front of the big screen TV waiting for the high definition pictures to start coming in. ;-) Oh well, back to 'reality' TV I guess.

Seriously, very good news.