Chavez ... Human Rights Violator ... and Liar

[I think not]

If you read the reports, ITN, then you know that they are just as or more valid as the crap that Jay has been posting.

You'd also know, if you stopped to consider it even for a second, that it takes time for education to reduce poverty. It is the most effective way of reducing poverty though. Only George Bush and other idiot adherents to Leave Every Poor Child Behind program would argue that. If you had that first report, you'd understand that Chavez is concentrating on education.

The biggest thing you are missing though is that poor people are doing better now even though they remain poor. They have access to education and health care. They have roads and little things like running water slowly being introduced. They have hope of getting a job or being able to farm. They didn't have that before and the people you would put back in power would take it away from them.

What you so purposely ignore is the attempts, which the US government has been complicit in, to destroy the Venezuelan economy. If somebody waged that kind of economic warfare on the US, or even threatened to, you'd invade them.

What really pisses you guys off is that Chavez is shown your little doctrine of greed being good to be a failure and a lie though. That pisses you off to no end.

OK, let's wait and have this conversation again in 5 years, what the hell, it's been 7 already. I suppose Chavez will join in the anals of successful socialists by then. The world is full of them, isn't it?

 

[Reverend Blair]

Indeed, Venezuela has the fastest-growing economy in Latin America, with growth rates in the first two quarters of 7.5 percent and 11.1 percent, respectively. It had a 17.8 percent growth rate in 2004. The non-oil sectors grew at a faster pace than the oil sector, rising 8.7 percent and 12.1 percent in the first two quarters of 2005. Venezuela's economy is growing at the second-fastest rate in the world, topped only by China.

Yes, Venezuela is Reducing Poverty

Chavez explained that the expansion of Mission Mercal was possible due to profits obtained from Citgo, the refining and gas station chain Venezuela owns in the U.S. In 2004 Citgo provided $445 million in dividends to its parent company, the state-owned oil company PDVSA. This money was turned over directly to PDVSA's social fund, which is being used to fund the Mercal expansion.

"This company [Citgo] never provided dividends to Venezuela. 14,000 gas stations and eight refineries and the profits that this company had since [Venezuela] bought it have remained in the U.S.," said Chavez during his television program. "Now we decide what to do with the profits," he added.

CITGO prfits feed poor people

 

[I think not]

Don't get bogged down in statistics. You can make them say whatever you like. The best way to get a sense of what is really going on is to talk to people that actually live there. I don't defend Chavez out of ideological affinity. I am neither left or right. I do believe that when a country elects a president and then ratifies him by national referendum, this means he is the legitimate president, whether people outside the country agree or not. Chavez' main opponent is a man that stole two elections and lies to his own people. If you choose to believe Bushspeak over the facts, then that is your perrogative. I prefer to sit in the middle and inform myself before taking sides. In the end, it is the business of Venezuelans, and the rest of us should just let them be.

First of all I never disputed his Presidency, not once, contrary to your own "non-biased" opinion.

I don't have any idea what it is you are talking about regarding Bushspeak, Ted. I don't believe I posted anything other than economic figures and a link from Human Rights Watch.

As far as getting bogged down from economic figures, that's all we have to go by in the "outside" world, I post from economic sources, that's what is going to drive Chavez's success, the economy.

As far as you visiting personally and expressing your own views by talking to the people, is fine by me. I never rejected what you said, nor made claims that you were lying about it.

I'm trying to ascertain for myself why this guy screams "foul" when something doesn't go his way.

 

[Reverend Blair]

RE: Chavez ... Human Righ

If you were using current economic figures instead of just cherry-picking the ones that include when your boys were waging economic war on Chavez, you'd see that his policies are working though, ITN. More than that, even with limited resources he has taken steps to diversify the economy and increase education...long term solutions.

 

[I think not]

Indeed, Venezuela has the fastest-growing economy in Latin America, with growth rates in the first two quarters of 7.5 percent and 11.1 percent, respectively. It had a 17.8 percent growth rate in 2004. The non-oil sectors grew at a faster pace than the oil sector, rising 8.7 percent and 12.1 percent in the first two quarters of 2005. Venezuela's economy is growing at the second-fastest rate in the world, topped only by China.

Yes, Venezuela is Reducing Poverty

BERNARDO ALVAREZ

Ambassador

Embassy of Venezuela

Washington

:lol:

 

[Jay]

The one thing I can't find is why was Chavez let out of jail.....I know he served two years, and then was pardoned.

 

[Reverend Blair]

RE: Chavez ... Human Righ

As valid as the anti-Chavez numbers that you cook up, ITN.

You've never answered the main question either. Are the poor in Venezuela better off under Chavez or under the neo-liberal pals of Bush?

Let me put that another way. If you were poor, would you prefer to be poor without access to education, healthcare, and food; or would you prefer to to have access to those things?

 

[I think not]

Re: RE: Chavez ... Human Righ

As valid as the anti-Chavez numbers that you cook up, ITN.

I don't know how to cook, And Chavez's government changed the numbers on the fly by switching methodologies.

You've never answered the main question either. Are the poor in Venezuela better off under Chavez or under the neo-liberal pals of Bush?

That's what I have been trying to figure out from reliable economic sources, and they are not easy to come by since Chavez does not permit international orgainzations to verify his government's data. Funny innit?

Let me put that another way. If you were poor, would you prefer to be poor without access to education, healthcare, and food; or would you prefer to to have access to those things?

Of course I would prefer to have access to those things, it's a no brainer, is he doing that though? I haven't found a single link referencing any data that pertain to those statistics.

 

[Reverend Blair]

It is sometimes asserted that Venezuela under President Hugo Chavez Frias (1999 to the present) has been an economic failure, as compared with the past. For example, a recent news article in the Washington Post referred to "Hugo Chavez, the populist Venezuelan president whose giveaways to the poor have slowed economic progress."1 Such claims are not supported by the evidence. From 1970-1998 per capita income in Venezuela fell by 35 percent.2 This is the worst economic decline in the region and one of the worst in the world -- much worse even than what happened to Africa during this period.

So to measure a change in poverty over this period including an extremely steep economic downturn, but without including most of the recovery, does not make any economic sense.

 

[Reverend Blair]

Of course I would prefer to have access to those things, it's a no brainer, is he doing that though?

Yes he's doing that. Even the World Bank, not exactly a Chavez-boosting organisation has acknowledged that. It's been in several of the links I've put up, including the last one.

 

[Jay]

No one said he hadn't done a single good thing....

 

[Reverend Blair]

“When Latin American governments have adopted Washington Consensus policies, growth has slowed, inequality has increased, and other measures of economic and social insecurity have worsened,” writes Bivens.

The result of the policies you guys like so much.

 

[Ocean Breeze]

Yeah, Chavez is a threat - to big oil interests. He is a threat to the interests that are pushing for an American trading block and the erosion of nationalism and sovereignty. Chavez called Mexico's Vicente Fox "America's puppy". But the reasons for that comment were left out of the news here.

You see, free trade wasn't even on the agenda. Bush wanted to ignore the agenda (development and sustainability issues) and impose free trade onto the agenda. He got Fox and the Panamanian president to motion for the change to the agenda and this infuriated the other presidents. Chavez' comments were made in response to this, and apparently, leaders from other countries in the region agreed with his assessment.

Back in Mexico, Fox was incensed and claimed that it was an insult to all Mexicans. He withdrew his ambassador from Caracas. I saw him on CNN and he was spitting bile. Another thing that wasn't reported was that rallies were held in Mexico in support of Chavez' comments and against Fox, who is increasingly seen by his own people as the modern day Porfirio Diaz - the dictator that sold the northern territories to the US for an amount that wouldn't even buy a condo on the beach today.

Don't get bogged down in statistics. You can make them say whatever you like. The best way to get a sense of what is really going on is to talk to people that actually live there. I don't defend Chavez out of ideological affinity. I am neither left or right. I do believe that when a country elects a president and then ratifies him by national referendum, this means he is the legitimate president, whether people outside the country agree or not. Chavez' main opponent is a man that stole two elections and lies to his own people. If you choose to believe Bushspeak over the facts, then that is your perrogative. I prefer to sit in the middle and inform myself before taking sides. In the end, it is the business of Venezuelans, and the rest of us should just let them be.

good post Ted.

(and welcome to the forum...

 

[I think not]

It is sometimes asserted that Venezuela under President Hugo Chavez Frias (1999 to the present) has been an economic failure, as compared with the past. For example, a recent news article in the Washington Post referred to "Hugo Chavez, the populist Venezuelan president whose giveaways to the poor have slowed economic progress."1 Such claims are not supported by the evidence. From 1970-1998 per capita income in Venezuela fell by 35 percent.2 This is the worst economic decline in the region and one of the worst in the world -- much worse even than what happened to Africa during this period.

So to measure a change in poverty over this period including an extremely steep economic downturn, but without including most of the recovery, does not make any economic sense.

Well that is certainly an interesting perspective. Thanks for that pdf file. According to the author, the reason for the increase in poverty was the oil strike. Certainly a good addition to the research.

 

[Reverend Blair]

RE: Chavez ... Human Righ

Now go learn about the oil strike. If Canada and it's corporations brought a crippling strike like that to the US, you'd send tanks over the border in about three minutes.

 

[Reverend Blair]

For those of you in the US with an interest in seeing Venezuela do well Buy Your Gas at Citgo: Join the BUY-cott!

 

[Ted]

I didn't mean to offend anyone, and I wasn't directly addressing you, ITN, or anyone else. My comments were merely in reaction to an obvious campaign in the media to vilify the legitimately elected president of a sovereign nation. It is hard to get information from different sources. It isn't that I support Chavez, the man. My money is on the force of the Movement that elected him. Venezuelans voted for change at a very important moment in their history. Time will tell I apologize if you felt I was attacking you or calling you names. :cheers:

 

[Jay]

Cheers Ted....your input is valuable in our discussion for sure.

Do you know the answer to this?

The one thing I can't find is why was Chavez let out of jail.....I know he served two years, and then was pardoned.

 

[Reverend Blair]

True to her plan, once she got her new job in January, Secretary of State Rice lost no time in trying to destroy that unity. The State Department sent letters to Latin American leaders in order to mobilize them against Chávez in a dispute between Venezuela and Colombia. Nobody answered the State Department's call. U.S. pressure proved decidedly unhelpful, exacerbating the conflict. Colombian President Alvaro Uribe turned for help to none other than Fidel Castro. Castro sent Foreign Minister Felipe Pérez Roque to Caracas. Brazil and Peru also mediated. But as Uribe publicly acknowledged, it was Castro's help that was crucial to the peaceful outcome when Uribe met with Chávez in Caracas. Ironically, Cuba, which was able to mediate successfully, is not even a member of the OAS, having been expelled in 1962 as part of Washington's mobilization of Latin American countries against Cuba during Operation Mongoose, another attempt, following the Bay of Pigs, to overthrow the Cuban government.

The attacks are because the US has lost control. It is the movement more than any one man, Ted. The Bush regime and their supporters are trying to demonize and isolate him as a way to shut down the movement though.

 

[I think not]

I didn't mean to offend anyone, and I wasn't directly addressing you, ITN, or anyone else. My comments were merely in reaction to an obvious campaign in the media to vilify the legitimately elected president of a sovereign nation. It is hard to get information from different sources. It isn't that I support Chavez, the man. My money is on the force of the Movement that elected him. Venezuelans voted for change at a very important moment in their history. Time will tell I apologize if you felt I was attacking you or calling you names. :cheers:

No need for apologies, it's fine, misinterpretation on my end. I'll accept any views, I have no particular love for anyone, and you are right, time will tell.