Chavez ... Human Rights Violator ... and Liar

[pastafarian]

Nascar_James, forget about the US War of Terror:

The US has a proven track record in:

Police brutality
Also:

As another example, an Inter Press Service summary of a report titled Economic Apartheid in America points out that “the United States is the only industrialised nation that ‘views health care as a privilege, not a basic human right.’As another example, an Inter Press Service summary of a report titled Economic Apartheid in America points out that “the United States is the only industrialised nation that ‘views health care as a privilege, not a basic human right.’

Exploitation of child labour

Routine torture and mistreatment of inmates in prisons worse than anything Chavez has been shown to have done.
(The US also incarcerates a higher percentage of its population than any other country, including China and Uzbekistan)

Given the income gaps and differences in incarceration rates between Blacks and Whites, the US is also one of the most racially unequal countries in the world. Maybe Zimbabwe gives it a run for the money recently.

Internationally, the US has been the most anti-democratic nation in the world, having overthrown or attempted to overthrow at least six democratically-elected leaders.

It has supported more brutal dictators than any other nation.

It has launched unprovoked wars against more countries than Germany.
From welching on obligations to the UN, neutralizing the Organization on the Prohibtion of Chemical Weapons and refusing to make itself accountable to an international criminal court. The US has made itself a beacon of hope to leaders around the world who want to stay unnaccountable for humans rights abuses.

If it were Iceland criticizing Chavez, OK. But America? :roll:

 

[Durgan]

Chavez , I am sure is much admired by many people in South America, and if he prevails there , the infection just might spread to other S.A. countries.

A change is probably long overdue in many SA countries. There is too much misery. A few having most of the wealth and others living in misery must be balanced. Chevaz may be the spark that ignites the area.The CIA sponsored democracies just may be a thing of the past.

Venezuela has 48 million people with a reasonably good infrastructure plus oil. They are not as helpless as Cuba. The US would be better advised to work with him, instead of alienating as was done with Castro. I might add many ruling groups in S.A. view Castro's revolution as a threat. Their poor just might upset their comfortable apple cart.

Most of this thread is babbling on and on about Human Rights. The ultimate human rights abuse has to be living in poverty and misery in a land of plenty. The have nots had no human rights for years. Why the sudden concern about a little head bashing of the more affluent on the receiving end for a change?

The good old Catholic Church never corrected the inequities between super wealthy and downtrodden poor. They had years to do this. The Catholic Church always kept people faithful and poor. In fact my observations indicates the words are synonymous.

Also my view is the world would be better off without the missionaries. In fact, kicking their ass out of Venezuela probably should have been done years ago; unfortunately, a few of the natives will carry the religious load for years to come. It is hard to shake off that religious crap when the brain washing begins at an early age.

Venezuela is in transition, Chevez is the leader. Freely elected by the Democratic process , which is the mantra of the western world.

Get use to it. There will be excesses, but that is often the price paid for sharp changes. May he continue his social revolution.It is long overdue.

Durgan.

 

[Ocean Breeze]

Bravo!! well stated.

 

[Nascar_James]

As another example, an Inter Press Service summary of a report titled Economic Apartheid in America points out that “the United States is the only industrialised nation that ‘views health care as a privilege, not a basic human right.’As another example, an Inter Press Service summary of a report titled Economic Apartheid in America points out that “the United States is the only industrialised nation that ‘views health care as a privilege, not a basic human right.’

Pastafarian ...hmmm .I've heard of Rastafarians but never Pastafarians ... are you an equivalent Eyetalian version of Rastafarian?

Back to the argument at hand ... those who cannot afford health care insurance here in the US are covered by the governments MEDICAID program. No one here will be refused treatment if an urgent medical emergency arises.

In addition we have the benefit of not having folks dying while on a waiting list, waiting to have surgery. Not to mention the lower taxes. So we have lower taxes and a better and more efficient health care system, so what's your excuse for the higher taxes? I know ... it's left wing government policy ...just tax tax tax ... keep taxing folks there till the cows come home ...

 

[jimmoyer]

Hey Nascar_james, I think the problems of Health care deserve a huge change in thinking, instead of left vs right stupidity.

Containing costs is a big problem.

Also a problem is the complexity of choice that defeats many in attaining proper health care.

Simplicity and cost containment beg some re-examination.

We want simplicity in our tax code, why not in health care also ?

Guys like Chavez and Castro are no heroes in this health care either but certainly do have the cache and hutzpah to make themselves the darlings of the intellectual Left, making great use of the David vs Goliath angle to maximum benefit notably first for themselves.

 

[pastafarian]

Nascar_james, I'll be happy to discuss Canadian vs US systems of health care with you but not on this thread. I'll start one in Canadian Politics.
jimmoyer:

Hey Nascar_james, I think the problems of Health care deserve a huge change in thinking, instead of left vs right stupidity.

Agreed. Though compared to Bush ot Martin, for that matter, Chavez and Castro ARE health-care heroes if judged on results instead of ideology. Dunno about you, but that scares the hell outta me.

My post on this thread was only to scoff at America trying to take the moral high ground against Chavez, but Durgan's post is more to the point: Chavez is part of a recent South American trend to put the rights of their citizens over the bankrolls of the ruling classes and shaeholders in multinational or US corporations.

 

[jimmoyer]

However, I fear Chavez will use demagoguery that scares the money away.

The South Africa example with all its faults was the best at keeping some even keel in not scaring business away.

The market still reacts to safety in its investment and if they have a wild guy lying to the people with all of these wonderful promises, they will have no faith in this leader and will take investment in this great dream away.

We'll see.

He's already gone for one grab. 1 percent raised to 16 percent in taxes. That's okay. But I think everyone saw the power grab going for this windfall.

He will certainly do better than the status quo, but now that he's raised such high expectations Chavez is going to be held to a higher standard.

 

[Durgan]

[/quote] "pastafarian"]
Chavez is part of a recent South American trend to put the rights of their citizens over the bankrolls of the ruling classes and shareholders in multinational or US corporations.[/quote]

Well stated. That should stir up the rats.
Durgan.

 

[Nascar_James]

"pastafarian"]
Chavez is part of a recent South American trend to put the rights of their citizens over the bankrolls of the ruling classes and shareholders in multinational or US corporations.[/quote]

Well stated. That should stir up the rats.
Durgan.[/quote]

 

[Ocean Breeze]

"pastafarian"]
Chavez is part of a recent South American trend to put the rights of their citizens over the bankrolls of the ruling classes and shareholders in multinational or US corporations.

Well stated. That should stir up the rats.
Durgan.[/quote]

[/quote]


so THAT is what ya'all look like??? :? 8O

 

[jimmoyer]

Ocean Breeze?

Perhaps moderation is the best way.

I've seen much damage done by the sure footed righteous among us. I've seen people overreact to correct one wrong and in so doing commit often a great wrong.

I predict Chavez is about to do just that.

 

[pastafarian]

However, I fear Chavez will use demagoguery that scares the money away.

The assumptions underlying this statement rank as the most transparent myths of the "Benefits of Globalization". Yes, corporations are going to stop paying governments and "consultants" helping them set up "Free Trade Zones" where they can use a desparate, terrorized labour force to make their products without paying duties, insurance, benefits, overtime, a living wage, any kind of safety or environmental-protection related costs or any kind of value-added premium.

They're going to lose the firms with exclusive contracts that allow them to squeeze out local business by flooding local markets with inferior goods initially sold at a loss and the marked up 100s of % after the local competition has gone bankrupt.

They won't have the priviledge of hosting resource-extraction companies that use foreign workers in good jobs and locals in the low-paying dangerous ones. I'm sure they'll miss these guys when they pack up and leave, taking their profits with them, leaving a toxic waste site where the oil/gas/uranium/diamonds/gold was.

Yup it sure would be terrible to have local firms paid a living wage and putting money back into the country via taxes and local infrastructure...

In any case, Venezuala has oil and lots of it, and because Chavez is smart and tough enough to nationalize production, the foreign money will keep flowing into the country and maybe even benefit ordinary Venezualans.

Unless he meets the same fate as the others "Commie terrorists" who've had the criminal notion that the people of a country should see a bit of the money generated from their country's natural resources.

 

[jimmoyer]

A lot of what you say is true.

But

If ever you were a business man who began a business and watched the righteous pick off their share, you'd have a whole different take of the situation in a very personal way.

 

[pastafarian]

If ever you were a business man who began a business and watched the righteous pick off their share, you'd have a whole different take of the situation in a very personal way.

You may well be right. But as Enron, Worldcom, Hollinger and GroupeAction have shown, these bastards, sorry, "businessmen" frequently have a sense of entitlement all out of proportion to what they actually do for anyone, even the sacred shareholders.

 

[jimmoyer]

That is true Pastafarian.

So ultimately the truth lies in the middle.

If you want to scare off investment, just watch Chavez.

In the end, this will hurt his people more.

And yes Chavez says things about the old status quo that is very true.

It's just that his righteousness is going to make new mistakes equally egregious.

I wonder how anyone can slow the pendulum of reaction so that it does sit in between all who think they are so right.

 

[Reverend Blair]

RE: Chavez ... Human Righ

If what you say is true, Jim, then the US is in effect pushing Chavez to extremism through their actions against him.

There is no longer any doubt that the US sponsored the coup against Chavez. There is no doubt that the US poured millions into political organisations that oppose Chavez. The US has openly used economic and political pressure to try to undermine Chavez. US oil companies with ties to the Bush regime were intrumental in the strike that shut down the Venezuelan oil industry and did massive economic damage. The rumours of assassination plots have a fair amount of credence given the USA's history of such things.

So is Bush not forcing Chavez into extremism? Should Chavez not defend himself against attempts on his leadership?

The investment in oil won't go away. Not in this world. f the US pulls out (slim chance) then somebody else will pick up the contracts. Keep in mind that 16% still leaves 84% for the companies. The investment being made in the Venezuelan people with that 16% that you hate so much is clear. Education and medical care are basic measures of the quality of life, as well the building blocks that all agree will drive sustainable development.



Through all of that,

 

[peapod]

I've seen much damage done by the sure footed righteous among us. I've seen people overreact to correct one wrong and in so doing commit often a great wrong.

I predict Chavez is about to do just that.

Oh bullshit, save your predictions for the damage your government has done to other countries. Its none of your business or your natural resources. If chavez fails or not, its not your governments call, even tho your government will try every "underhanded" and "unethical" method to undermine him. Not because you give a rats ass about people either, it about their "oil" and your greed, most distasteful is the fact you try to pass your self off as having some high moral compass...nope the needle busted a long time ago... :? :?

 

[jimmoyer]

Wait a minute.

Let me look.

Sure enough, that needle is spinning.
Is it broken?

I must be sitting near the magnetism of 360 degrees of sin.



oh no...

 

[pastafarian]

US is in effect pushing Chavez to extremism through their actions against him.

Which they've been doing to Castro since 1959, and in all that time he's never come up with anything to equal Camp X-ray or Abu Grahib.

 

[jimmoyer]

Not that any of us would know of.

Information is harder come by.

The Miami community would be glad to help you with that though.