CBC 2011 federal election political compass

Omicron

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Jack Layton, as - Heaven forbid - Prime Minister would do what Bob Rea did to Ontario a few years back.

You're only saying that because you haven't actually dug into how he's operated when he's had supervisor/management positions.

Sometimes Canadians act like they're almost as bad as Americans at voting for someone because they think it's who their drinking buddies are going to vote for... sort of a need to socially-conform kind'a thing.

It reminds me of an experiment I was involved with in the eighth grade.

The social studies teacher took me and the smartest girl in the class, Liz (not her real name), aside, and told us that he'd give us each a 24 case of soda-pop if we could swing the student election away from the favorite.

Liz and I talked about it, and she insisted that gossip was the key, so she went back to the teacher and insisted we be paid in advance. I don't know how she talked him into that, because I know I never could have.

She pointed out what she called the betas... about seven each of girls and guys, and we told them they could have a share in our soda-pop - one can now - a second can after the election, and a third if the objective was achieved, if they played along with us in a "game", and they all went for it not so much for the pop (I think) but because they got a kick out it being a game where they were "insiders".

Their job was *not* to say to the gammas (about 300 students) that they, the betas we'd bribed with pop, were going to vote for the long-shot, but that *others* were actually secretly planning to vote for the long shot.

i.e., They'd say to Jeff, "I heard Ted is actually going to vote for Deb (the second place runner) because he feels sorry for her, but he won't admit it because it would make him look dorky if people knew".

Then they'd say to Ted, "I heard Jess is actually going to vote for Deb, but he won't admit it because it will make him look like a geek if he admits it".

We swung the election handily, and Deb was stunned. She didn't expect to win, and she turned out to be the worst student president ever.

We didn't have to bribe the school hero's into making big public endorsements for the lame-runner.

We only had to make everyone *believe* that *everyone else* was going to vote a certain way, and they they followed each other into conformity like a snake swallowing its own tail.

After all the bribing me and Liz were still left over with three cans of pop each, and I thought it was the beginning of a long and beautiful relationship, but Liz ended up dating the biggest "oh-so-sensitive" meat-headed lunk of the jock crowd. (I so totally do-not understand women sometimes. How could she be so smart and not see my sperm was superior?)

Anyway, later I found out the social studies teacher went on to present it in a talk at the local university.

One aspect of his presentation was to ponder if it was so easy because kids that age are hyper-sensitive to social conformity, or if it would extend into adult behavior.
 
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Corduroy

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The poll is certainly not perfect in its wording, but it still might not be inaccurate. Interesting how so many are finding themselves not where they'd expect. Probably a better indication that the poll is off. Most of the questions are about current issues not about fundamental principles. I might better agree with those Liberal positions, but contemporary liberalism is not where I see myself at all. I don't think the Conservatives are really as far to the right as they make them out to be either. If you add fascism or communism to the mix, you would have to make the compass larger and bring the Libs and Cons closer together. Parties always move to the centre when the govern anyway.

A Green AND a Socialist??? GACK!!!!!! :)

I'm perfect, I know. ;)

Yep and add a few more to the payroll to do so.

A friend of mine works for Revenue Canada. She was saying that around this time of year (tax season) they always hire more temporary workers, but it's often the case that they get more money in their budget for those workers than they need. Typical of bureaucracy. if they don't use the money, they won't get as much next year, so they hire these people and they do practically nothing for a few weeks. So yeah, the bureaucracy expanding to meet the expanding bureaucracy.
 

Omicron

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Jul 28, 2010
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What's he going to do besides raise taxes?

Suppose you had a balanced tax system, and a leader gets too brainwashed by the Plutocrats of Wall Street who don't care if they collapse civilization in order to get more shareholder dividends - sort of like how cancers don't care if they kill the body upon which they feed in order to maximize their growth - such that taxes are cut below a rate required to maintain a good civilization...

... and someone comes along willing to correct it, which means restoring things to a stable level.

Do you freak that they are "raising taxes"?

If you had an oncogene where its trick was to rearrange the piping of the blood-system in order to be the only tissue getting nutrients absorbed from the stomach such that the other tissue systems are starving and emaciated...

... and a surgeon fixes it so all cells can now get nutrients, and not just one tissue group.

Is the surgeon being terrible to deny the oncogenic tissue it's "right" to pipe as many of the nutrients to itself as it can figure out how to do, such that the rest of the body can go to hell if the other tissue system can't "compete"?

Please sir, can you show me the crematoriums. :lol:
He's starting with concentration camps and calling them prisons, and he wants to build them even though the crime rate is dropping.

He won't tell parliament how much it will cost to build and maintain them, which is ominous and is a big part of what it took to get Harpo guilty of being the first leader in Common Wealth history all the way back to its founding hundreds of years ago by the Brits of being in Contempt of Parliament.

It's basically the same as an American President breaking the Constitution, and in the US they'd Impeach him for it.

Can you imagine if Americans Impeached a President, and they let him run again?

That's how silly we are looking to the rest of the Common Wealth to be allowing Harper to continue after being held in Contempt of Parliament.
 
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Corduroy

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I'm going to make a bold statement here and say that the Prime Minister withholding information from Parliament and being found in contempt of Parliament isn't quite the same as the Holocaust.
 

TenPenny

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It's basically the same as an American President breaking the Constitution, and in the US they'd Impeach him for it.

Don't be so sure - I was watching PBS yesterday, they discussed the fact that sending American Troops into Libya was technically against the constitution, but specifically stated that it wasn't worth impeaching him over. 'they' meaning the talking heads.
 

Omicron

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Jul 28, 2010
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I'm going to make a bold statement here and say that the Prime Minister withholding information from Parliament and being found in contempt of Parliament isn't quite the same as the Holocaust.

It sure the heck is if plans to be ready to do something like that is the motivation behind building the prisons, which is exactly why opposition parties need to see the budget forecast and the operational plans, which is exactly why the issue of withholding the informatin constitutes such a serious breach of parliamentary protocol.

In any case, you're trying to make too big a leap by jumping to the emotional meme of "Holocaust" and "Gas Chambers".

Would you be able to grok the concept easier if Hitler had not gassed the Jews, and had just left them locked up in Concentration Camps?

In terms of the System, the only difference between gassing people incarcerated in a Concentration Camp versus keeping them alive is that it's cheaper to gas them.

But in either case they're out of the System, so the effect to the System is the same.

Are you saying it's okay for Harpo to lock up all dissidents as long as he does not gas them?

Gee, isn't that such a "Canadian" way to "humanize" the situation.

Don't be so sure - I was watching PBS yesterday, they discussed the fact that sending American Troops into Libya was technically against the constitution, but specifically stated that it wasn't worth impeaching him over. 'they' meaning the talking heads.

Hmm... they haven't sent in any troops on the ground, so I presume you're saying that just the bombing alone was unconstitutional.

Is it because under US law it's technically an act of war, and therefore was supposed to be ratified by Congress?
 

lone wolf

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Nov 25, 2006
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I was here. I remember Rae came in with great plans and met face-to-face with an economic recession and Paul Martin's cut in transfer payments. What did his replacement do?
 

Corduroy

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Feb 9, 2011
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Would you be able to grok the concept easier if Hitler had not gassed the Jews, and had just left them locked up in Concentration Camps?

Yeah, I would. It would still be a stupid comparison but it would be that much less stupid. But Hitler did gas the Jews and so your comparison remains at maximum stupidity.
 

eh1eh

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Aug 31, 2006
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If you search this site you will find a number of threads using this very program. The flavour of the day then was, 'Are you a Libertarian?'

Yawn 'o matic.
 

Omicron

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Jul 28, 2010
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Yeah, I would. It would still be a stupid comparison but it would be that much less stupid. But Hitler did gas the Jews and so your comparison remains at maximum stupidity.

It's not maximum stupidity because if you read history you'll know that less devious brains that Harpo's have pulled off equivalently horrible atrocities starting from what seemed so innocuous.

It's nuts to not keep an eye out for it, because by the time jazz like that starts rolling, even the most disproving sort can find it impossible to stop... just how many Germans do you think were actually involved in the Holocaust? How many of them do you think even *knew* about it?

Programs like that can take on a life of their own, especially when it reaches a point where people feel like they're going to get sucked up and rolled into the snowball if they don't run with it.

Division and sequestering of information control was a key pillar to Hitler's hold on power... in fact he only had support of 35% of the population - about the same as Harpo's - and they were all the skin-headed lunkhead variety; easy to dupe with emotional memes. The rest were confused and disorganized by lack of information...

And Harpo is ALL ABOUT sequestering and controlling of information, and like Hitler, his core constituents tend to be a simple folk, frustrated by the scope and scale of modern society, and heavy into the Old Testament when that's only in the Bible because Christian Missionaries were finding it difficult to teach pagans the faith without first teaching them about the Jewish historical/theological roots from whence Christianity arose, therefore it was tacked on as a favor, but people were *not* supposed to dive into the Old Testament as if it was the final word... they were supposed to be learning from the New Testament, yet when you listen to Harpo's constituents, they always seem to be getting hung up on Old Testament ways of interpreting cause, effect, reward, and punishment.

Given the parallel's, everyone's red-alarms should be going off... especially since the doing of that stunt leading to Harpo's infamous place in history as being the first PM in Common Wealth history to do Contempt of Parliament.

Anyway... you're getting tripped up by semantic hair-splitting based on the emotional memetic affect of the word "Holocaust", so...

Hmm...

Okay, fine... so Nazi's were fascists, but not all fascists were Nazi's and it was the Nazi's who gassed the Jews, so...

Henceforth I shall strive to be more precise in describing the PC-Reform merged group as fascists, because not all fascists gassed Jews...

Rather, they just rounded up everyone against them and shot them or stuck them in prisons, and because Canadians are oh-so civilized, its fascists will choose the prison option, which means a need for lots of prisons, therefore start building, and don't tell anyone how much it's actually costing compared to the real demand, or they might choke and start thinking something's wrong.
 
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Corduroy

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Oh, I'm all in favour of people expressing their crazy beliefs. How else would you know they're crazy? For example, now I know I shouldn't take you seriously anymore. It would have been nice if someone gave me a list of all the paranoid conspiracy theorists on this forum when I got here, but there's something to be said about the delightful process of discovery.

By all means, tell me more about how Stephen Harper is a fascist.
 

Omicron

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Jul 28, 2010
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Oh, I'm all in favour of people expressing their crazy beliefs. How else would you know they're crazy? For example, now I know I shouldn't take you seriously anymore.
My heart is broken. We were getting so close. It could have meant something.
It would have been nice if someone gave me a list of all the paranoid conspiracy theorists on this forum when I got here, but there's something to be said about the delightful process of discovery.
What's the difference between a "paranoid" conspiracy theory versus a normal conspiracy theory, and how do either relate to noting historical parallels?
By all means, tell me more about how Stephen Harper is a fascist.
Here: Fascism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And while you're reading, you might as well fold into the picture ol' Harpo's push to purchase a pile of F-35's we don't need.
 
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Corduroy

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Hitler was also elected in a minority government! Hitler loved animals and Stephen Harper takes care of abandoned kittens!

Historical parallels everywhere up in this bitch!
 

Omicron

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Jul 28, 2010
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Among many other things, Mike Harris broke Ontario Hydro into separate companies then sold it off to the for profit sector - for which rates have skyrocketed

Oh.

I have some associates who moved their operations from LA to Chicago because of the way California's power rates skyrocketed after they did that to their power grid.

Thing is... Chicago's power doesn't come from a state-held power grid... it's mostly from Exelon, a commercial operation trading on the NYSE. The power is affordable, nobody is complaining, and they seem to be innovative, i.e. Chicago to Launch Largest Smart Grid Energy so it's not just a simple issue of whether or not a power-grid is publicly-owned versus a privately-owned or publicly-traded operation.

I haven't dug into it so I don't really know, but my bet would be that the California grid got privatized into the hands of MBAs, whereas I bet Exelon promotes more from within among those who actually understand and have had experience with the technology.

Whatever the strategic and operational difference, it was usefulness and cost of the two state's respective power grids that was directly instrumental in causing some businesses to leave California and move to Chicago.

It means climate was not an issue, which means if Canada's power could be even cheaper (and more stable; the California grid became too unstable given the up-time their operations needed) then they'd have been happy to keep going north if the deal on power had been right.

Hitler was also elected in a minority government! Hitler loved animals and Stephen Harper takes care of abandoned kittens!

Historical parallels everywhere up in this bitch!

You're funny.

I had already mentioned the minority-government aspect, but I didn't know about the "love of animals" part, and I happen to know some actual died-in-the-wool "conspiracy theory" characters who will lap-up information like that and make cosmic connections out of it, and I have have a mind to feed it to them when they're stoned to see what they come up with...

But in the mean time, fact is fact that Harper did Contempt of Parliament because he didn't want the opposition nor the public to know what he's up to, so unless he can show it's an issue of national security in order to justify the secrecy, what would you call it when a ruler implements policies that the citizens would object to should they learn the details?

'Cause his behavior sure the heck is not that of being leader of a democracy.
 
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CDNBear

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Sep 24, 2006
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Anyone else see the upper left quadrant as Europe and the lower right as America - or is it just me?
Just the nutters see that.

Makes sense based on your views, actually. It's just that the current Libs are Cons in disguise.
Ya, and you're objective.

Holy sh!t !!! Bear .... Im dead center in the Liberal camp :|
Mind scrubing my back? :D
Pass me the lufa.

It means the Conservatives are way out there in Naziland


Is that a step up or sideways, from your Darth Vader comparison?

Same here... it put me way to the left when I know I'm quintessentially moderate.
Ya, moderates always compare politicians to fictional evil doers and homicidal madmen....



You're only saying that because you haven't actually dug into how he's operated when he's had supervisor/management positions.
You mean like living in subsidized housing?

It reminds me of an experiment I was involved with in the eighth grade.
So it's still fresh in your memory, being last year and all.

Oh, I'm all in favour of people expressing their crazy beliefs. How else would you know they're crazy? For example, now I know I shouldn't take you seriously anymore. It would have been nice if someone gave me a list of all the paranoid conspiracy theorists on this forum when I got here, but there's something to be said about the delightful process of discovery.

By all means, tell me more about how Stephen Harper is a fascist.
I would have brought you up to speed, but you seem to be quite smart, so I felt you'd catch them all on your own, in short order.

I see I wasn't wrong. Enjoy your discoveries.