Canadian seal cull sparks protests

[earth_as_one]

Exactly my point. I wonder how many anti-seal hunt activists dump fertilizers and pesticides on their land, drive an SUV...

Also fur is a renewable resource unlike oil based synthetic furs:

Objections to fur
Main articles: Fur farming and Fur clothing
Animal welfare advocates object to fur, when many synthetic "faux fur" alternatives are available. On the other hand, fur advocates will tout the material's superior warmth, style, and the fact that it's a 100% renewable resource. It is often argued that real is superior to synthetic fur that is petroleum based product and can release highly toxic prussic acid into the environment. Real fur is completely biodegradable and lasts longer. Others counter that the chemicals used to process fur are highly toxic and therefore negate any environmental advantage of fur over synthetic products but recently great strides have been made in producing commercially tanned pelts using more environmentally friendly processes...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sealing

 

[tamarin]

Earthasone, specious reasoning. We can't debate the morality or existence of the seal hunt referencing environmental oddities like Toronto sprawl, congestion and smog. The debate is over on the seal-cod connection and the ethics of feeding an Asian based fur and medicinal and culinary machine, that is already blamed for the staggering loss of global sea-life, is at issue. Are we to continue to feed this monster despite the damning news of its sea practices or take a stand? Culling wild animals like the seal is something of a different century and the age of ignorance. All we're offered is the lame excuse it's a traditional activity. I've had my say on this over and over. The seal hunt doesn't belong in a modern nation and in a century when that same nation should be at the forefront of environmental efforts that will offer an example to its global partners.

 

[GenGap]

Over harvesting fish stocks is a much bigger problem than Canada's annual east coast seal hunt. But I'm not so sure bringing back the cod will be as simple as harvesting more seals.

Seriously though, which is more harmful to the environment, the annual seal hunt or the Greater Toronto Area's urban sprawl?

Toronto of course in the short term.

 

[earth_as_one]

I disagree with you T.

We have to look at all our activities and what impact they have on the environment. Those activities which have the least benefits and cause the most damage should be the highest priority. Activities which have little to no negative environmental/ecological impact, yet provide significant benefits should only be monitored and regulated.

The seal hunt generates revenue for one of Canada's poorest regions. (a benefit) The seals are not threatened with extinction. (low impact). Right now the seal hunt is not an ecological or environmental problem and it is monitored and regulated. I don't see a problem here.

Collectively our lawns and urban/suburban landscapes occupy millions of hectares, consume energy, a source of pollution, contribute to the real problem of introduced species and provide no practical benefit beyond percieved aesthetics (low benefit). Our managed landscapes permanently damage/destroy the local ecosystem. Most species at risk in Canada are threatened this destruction. (huge impact). Urban sprawl is poorly managed and little effort is made to limit its destructive impact.

All it would take to mitigate most of the damage caused by urban landscapes would be for people to grow native plants instead of exotic imports, tolerate rotting organic debris like old snags and logs and limit the use of pesticides and fertilizers. There is no reason why our managed landscapes must be so different from the original ecosystems they replaced. All it would take is an attitude change. Seems to me this is one problem where a small change (attitude) would have a huge impact.

This organization is active in that fight:
http://www.nanps.org/

Imagine if people put as much effort into restoring the local ecosystem as they currently do to maintain a poisoned and polluted landscape of non-native grass species.

Let's be honest T, opposition to the seal hunt is not really about the environment or ecology. This is really about cruelty to animals or percieved cruelty to animals. Cruelty to animals is a legitimate concern, but the seal industry already meets the same standards as other industries which involve killing animals. If this is truly the concern of the anti-seal movement, then you should be fighting for more humane treatment of animals.

What I think is many leaders of the anti-seal movement are really opportunists which profit from creating misperceptions. I have a problem with these people portraying this issue as something it is not and invoke pseudo-science for fundraising purposes. In effect these people are little better than tele-evangelists which take money from the poor to live an opulent livestyle. When people eventually figure out they have been suckered, they will not only stop supporting the anti-seal movement but also stop supporting other legitimate conservation efforts based on science which really do have a beneficial impact.

If you are truly concerned about the real problem of a current mass extinction event taking place then I suggest you focus your efforts where they would be useful and have a real impact. Follow the links:

http://forums.canadiancontent.net/ca...tml#post812995

 

[Sparrow]

Earthasone, specious reasoning. We can't debate the morality or existence of the seal hunt referencing environmental oddities like Toronto sprawl, congestion and smog. The debate is over on the seal-cod connection and the ethics of feeding an Asian based fur and medicinal and culinary machine, that is already blamed for the staggering loss of global sea-life, is at issue. Are we to continue to feed this monster despite the damning news of its sea practices or take a stand? Culling wild animals like the seal is something of a different century and the age of ignorance. All we're offered is the lame excuse it's a traditional activity. I've had my say on this over and over. The seal hunt doesn't belong in a modern nation and in a century when that same nation should be at the forefront of environmental efforts that will offer an example to its global partners.

If the seal hunt does not belong anymore lets also stop the game hunters. Game hunters do it for SPORT and enjoyment. Some eat the meat but many do it to show off and parade through town with their trophy on roofs of their truck for weeks. Also not all hunters are precise shooters and many animals are wounded and run away to die a long painful death. NOT CRUEL IT IS A SPORT!
Not all hunters are Canadians, we get people from Asia, Europe and the largest number from the US. They have killed the game in their own countries so the come here for the SPORT.

Before we destroy peoples livelihood like seal hunters the SPORT of killing needs to be stopped.

 

[tamarin]

Sparrow, it is not their livelihood. It's a drop in the barrel. Some $10 million or less to affected communities. Much less than was taken by two participants in Adscam. We can't possibly defend the hunt on economic grounds.
Hundreds of thousands of seals will be taken on this hunt. A huge number. Comparing it to basic hunts where the hunters bag one or two creatures according to tags they purchase is a stretch.
I fish and I enjoy it. There are limits to be observed. I usually catch and release. There's a sense of fair play involved.
The seal hunt is simply a slaughter permitted by a modern nation during a time of crisis in the natural community. It doesn't make sense. Economically, it's laughable. It's simply time to do the right thing.
Earthasone, I know where you're coming from but I think you're ducking the larger issues. Look fifty years ahead. What will be the consensus on your views then?

 

[earth_as_one]

50 years from now I hope there are as many seals off Newfoundland's coast as there is today.

50 years from now, I hope most of these animals still exist or have been reintroduced:
http://www.sararegistry.gc.ca/species/schedules_e.cfm?id=1

HARP SEALS ARE NOT ON THE LIST OF ENDANGERED SPECIES. sorry for shouting, but you seem to be missing that point.

If something threatens Newfoundland's seal population, likely the seal hunters will be the first ones to notice and the first ones to take up the fight to protect the seals they depend on to make a living.

A seal hunter's relationship to the seals is like a farmer to his cows. No farmer would slaughter more cows than what his herd could sustain. The regulating bodies which over see the seal harvest are responsible for ensuring seals are taken at a sustainable rate. Any hunter which violates the law should be punished.

Yes we can defend seal hunting on economic grounds. That small amount of money seal hunters earn isn't a hand out. Those people earned that money honestly. Even if the seal hunt keeps a few of them off welfare and preserves their dignity, then I am all for it.

Yes the seal hunt is a slaughter. A carefully managed and controlled slaughter which results in economic benefits for one of Canada's poorest regions and does not threaten the longterm viability of Canada's seal species.

Yes a crisis exists in the natural community. But the seal species harvested/slaughtered during the annual seal hunt are NOT part of that crisis. Their numbers are plentiful. Seals are one of the few species which are abundant, like Canada geese or seagulls. Hopefully seals will remain plentiful.

I am curious T, do you believe harp seals are threatened with extinction? Or is your main concern here a cruelty to animals issue.

You said you like to fish. I like to fish too. I have to admit, putting live bait on a hook isn't exactly the kindest thing to do to a worm or a minnow. But live bait is more effective than articial bait. I use only worms or minnows which are not pest species. I prefer to catch minnows from the same lake where I intend to fish, if I have time. I am careful not to introduce pest species from one lake into another. I will destroy minnows rather than introduce them into a lake where they might cause harm to that lake's ecosystem.

You believe in catch and release. I don't. I believe hooking a fish so you can play with it for a while and then let it go is needlessly harmful and cruel. There is a good chance the released fish is going to die from the stress and injuries anyway. If I catch a legal game fish, I give thanks to the fish for offering itself to me and then cook it for dinner, no matter how small it is. I don't catch more than my limit or what I intend to eat that day. According to my belief system, it would be disrespectful not to eat a fish which offered itself to me. I learned that philosophy from the Inuit. But I would never impose my belief system on others. I am just sharing my viewpoint, not judging you.

 

[earth_as_one]

If the seal hunt does not belong anymore lets also stop the game hunters. Game hunters do it for SPORT and enjoyment. Some eat the meat but many do it to show off and parade through town with their trophy on roofs of their truck for weeks. Also not all hunters are precise shooters and many animals are wounded and run away to die a long painful death. NOT CRUEL IT IS A SPORT!
Not all hunters are Canadians, we get people from Asia, Europe and the largest number from the US. They have killed the game in their own countries so the come here for the SPORT.

Before we destroy peoples livelihood like seal hunters the SPORT of killing needs to be stopped.

I am no longer a hunter, but I defend subsistance hunting and sport hunting as long as hunters follow the law, which 99% do. Hunting is another activity which generates wealth in Canada's poorest regions. I have travelled extensively across Canada and in some areas (First Nation Reserves especially), tourism related to hunting and fishing are extremely important income sources to many remote communities. Hunters and fisherman stay in hotels, eat in restaraunts, buy supplies and hire guides. Moose and bear populations in some areas have never been so high. Also imported meat is very expensive in many remote communities. In those communities, its often far cheaper to hunt local game species. In some communities, the money saved by hunting allows people to raise their living standard.

The same with trapping. I have met people who depend on trapping to buy Christmas presents. I used to have a trapline permit and I have trapped fox, muskrat and martin. Thanks to the anti-fur movement, many children don't get as much at Christmas anymore. Done properly, trapping is as humane as any other industry which kills animals and sustainable. Also if something threatens an eco-system, the trappers in that area are usually the first ones to notice.

 

[earth_as_one]

I no longer hunt but I do take pictures.

That is me in the foregound and a 200 lb. male bear in the background.

 

[earth_as_one]

Attached is a picture of a timber wolf.

I have lots of other pictures, but they are too big to post.

 

[TenPenny]

I fish and I enjoy it. There are limits to be observed. I usually catch and release. There's a sense of fair play involved.

So you don't mind inflicting pain and suffering in a fish, because it's fair play, and it's for your personal enjoyment.

Good for you.

 

[earth_as_one]

Here are some movies I took of a female bear:

If I said how close I have come to this bear, you wouldn't believe me. She is a regular visitor at my brother's cottage.

Experiences like this is why I don't hunt anymore. I don't have the heart anymore.

 

[tamarin]

Earthasone, I'm an excellent fisherman. I haven't used live bait for at least twenty-five years. Looking at one sector of the live bait industry, I've written letters to the local paper and to the MNR on the issue of frogs being sold locally for fishing expeditions. Thoughtless and cruel. I use barbless hooks and so I miss more than I should. I've always had a natural talent for the recreation. And it's relaxing.
Tenpenny, do you drive on wet nights? If you do, do you enjoy the large number of small lives you're taking? I avoid it when I can. It's a small contribution to the natural world but I make it.
And Earth, you keep on muddying the issue with references to domestic animal slaughter. It doesn't belong in this argument. Seals are targeted by humans simply because they're an easy target for small profit and the practice of an-out-of-date local tradition. They're large animals, like humans, who are totally responsible for their own welfare. Why is it that everything that doesn't have two legs and a hominid brain should be put on the harvest list? We are the only large animal in abundance then that's not subject to the same thinking we impose on all the others. I guess...we're special. We should share and not simply dominate the rest of the natural world.

 

[TenPenny]

Tenpenny, do you drive on wet nights? If you do, do you enjoy the large number of small lives you're taking? I avoid it when I can. It's a small contribution to the natural world but I make it.

Of course I drive on wet nights. And days. And I step on worms. And I've been known to kill ants. I also eat meat, and fish. And vegetables. Not only that, but I'm not against abortion. But I don't run around preaching about seals, while happily inflicting pain and suffering on fish for no reason but my own pleasure, not even for food. That's just plain idiotic.

 

[TenPenny]

. I guess...we're special.

Hey, you've almost figured it out.
Maybe there's hope for you yet.

 

[Stretch]

I propose a human bein' cull.....starting at the top!

 

[tamarin]

Stretch, put all the nations' names in a hat and draw one per month for a year. That should do it!

 

[tamarin]

Ten Penny, we're not special. We're just in a position to impose it.

 

[TenPenny]

Ten Penny, we're not special. We're just in a position to impose it.

Maybe you're not special, but I am.

 

[tamarin]

Explication? How special are you? Oh, let me count the ways...