Canadian Immigration

[spidercide]

RE: Immigration

Do immigrants come here to partake in our society or to recreate their society.
One is easy, you just have to integrate. The other is hard. How do we allow all peoples to recreate their society when every one is trying to recreate their society, a never ending loop.

Too much inclusion excludes the base.

 

[no1important]

RE: Immigration

There should be no borders and people should be allowed to move whenever and wherever they want to.

 

[spidercide]

RE: Immigration

Woulda, shoulda, coulda?

Been a long time since that was possible. About the same time that Babel came down.

Nice though, but what would the place be called, someone won't agrree with Earth. Now, if no borders, what happens when you and the people around you have, not a lot, but enough to survive and the next group over doesn't. Do you all suffer together and let your family go down so that other can come in and use your resources. Harsh I know, but these things(borders) grew out of the centuries for a reason.

It still would not matter even if we were all just villages in a global landscape. Those vilages would still need to control what happens in them and protect and better the lives of the people that built and live in them.

 

[Jo Canadian]

Re: RE: Immigration

There should be no borders and people should be allowed to move whenever and wherever they want to.

That's what we all would strive for, but somehow human nature gets in the way and we create our own borders...

...If there were no countries, we'd bicker about language, if we all had the same language, it would be our location, or skin colour, or wealth, or country vs city, or city vs. city. (ex. Edmonton vs. Calgary), hell then it's which end of the city...east end or south end, neighbourhoods.

Dammit nothing's ever easy.

 

[spidercide]

RE: Immigration

"Dammit nothing's ever easy."

It is easier(and safer) to put limits and controls on human nature than it is to try and change human nature.

You know what nature your facing for one, you do not know what you will actually get with the other.

 

[Nascar_James]

Re: Immigration

There is a need for more immigration in both the US and Canada. Both countries have a shortage of skilled workers. Actually, here in the US there is a shortage of both skilled and non-skilled workers.

The strategy in both countries should be to try and attract more of the skilled type immigrants versus the non-skilled. These are folks who would tend to become a contributing member of our society and not rely on social assistance. Increasing our skilled workforce through greater immigration in this area will definitely benefit our economy.

Many countries in Asia (India, China ...) contribute a good portion of our skilled immigrants. We should also be looking to attract more immigrants from countries in Europe that also have a large supply of skilled workers.

 

[JomZ]

RE: Immigration

There is a small snag in that plan James...

The problem is the bureaucracy of both Canada and the U.S. Where these skilled immigrants are not allowed to work in their core industries. For example, many immigrant medical workers (doctors, and nurses) from countries outside North America are not technically "qualified" to practice medicine in Canada or the U.S. so they must upgrade their skills.

So how do they do that? They must go back to school or university. This costs money that they do not have right away so they must work in jobs that they were not meant to work to earn money to pay for school. Some do eventually get back, but I doubt that all actually do and are stuck in the urban snarl.

What is found more is a tradeoff between Canada and the U.S. in workforces. A lot of our graduating medical students are heading south because their is more money and a demand in the private sector (but more risk in litigation). While Canada I dont know exactly what we get in return, althought their was a rumour of a lot of American University professors applying in Canada for the fear of the Bush Administrations politics (this is a rumour I heard from one of my professor friends a while back).

 

[Nascar_James]

Re: Immigration

Good points JomZ. However, for some skilled professions such as management level/Vice President as well as technical type jobs like Software and/or Engineering, the experience acquired by the immigrant would be far more valuable than details on the education.

 

[JomZ]

RE: Immigration

But their is also the culture of business practices of these immigrant workers.

Such as some cultures do not see women as capable of holding a high level position in a company. Working here they may seek to undermine or remove any female counterparts or subordinates. Especially in the managerial and financial fields in my experience. The legality of these practices still come into question but some people do not like doing business with a woman.

 

[Nascar_James]

Re: RE: Immigration

But their is also the culture of business practices of these immigrant workers.

Such as some cultures do not see women as capable of holding a high level position in a company. Working here they may seek to undermine or remove any female counterparts or subordinates. Especially in the managerial and financial fields in my experience. The legality of these practices still come into question but some people do not like doing business with a woman.

hmmm ... good points once again JomZ. I have noticed that most of the strategic high level workers (Vice President/President/CEO) that need to get recruited from foreign countries due to a lack of supply locally, are often recruited from countries with similar cultures. Example, if a multinational company in Canada needs to replace a VP and cannot locate a suitable candidate from within it's borders, it will most likely turn to the US. Otherwise, countries from within Europe would be tapped into (such as the UK) for suitable candidates.

 

[JomZ]

RE: Immigration

But our own cultural business practices are not perfect either. The social outlook of North American business people is directed more to the self interest then the growth of the economy. The short term cash grab rather then the long term economic foundations.

On both sides of the border we have seen it, with the fall or failing of many of our large corporations.
U.S.A.: Enron, Tyco, Worldcom, GM, etc.
Canada: Air Canada, Adscam, Bombardier, Stelco Steel, etc.

 

[dumpthemonarchy]

Re: Immigration

Do we need more doctors? Doctors don't think so as their unions across the country make it extremely difficult for an immigrant to become one. Ditto for architects or plumbers etc.

What I would like to see from the media is an in-depth article about these "6,000 long-haul trucks sitting empty in New Brunswick," according to Immigration Minister Joe Volpe, in the Vancouver Sun newspaper Sat, Sept 24/05, page A5. You won't see the article because they don't exist. What parking lots are they rotting in?

"Volpe said he also heard that 5,000 skilled jobs needed to be filled in Saskatchewan." Dream on. The minister "heard" of these jobs. Show me the job ads in the media for these phantom jobs. But you won't see them either.

Then, in BC, my province, there is a need for 1,000 computer engineers for graphic and video-game design. Ya sure, gimme a break.

Show me some evidence for 12,000 good paying jobs going begging in Canada.

 

[Nascar_James]

Re: Immigration

Do we need more doctors? Doctors don't think so as their unions across the country make it extremely difficult for an immigrant to become one. Ditto for architects or plumbers etc.

What I would like to see from the media is an in-depth article about these "6,000 long-haul trucks sitting empty in New Brunswick," according to Immigration Minister Joe Volpe, in the Vancouver Sun newspaper Sat, Sept 24/05, page A5. You won't see the article because they don't exist. What parking lots are they rotting in?

"Volpe said he also heard that 5,000 skilled jobs needed to be filled in Saskatchewan." Dream on. The minister "heard" of these jobs. Show me the job ads in the media for these phantom jobs. But you won't see them either.

Then, in BC, my province, there is a need for 1,000 computer engineers for graphic and video-game design. Ya sure, gimme a break.

Show me some evidence for 12,000 good paying jobs going begging in Canada.

Most high level or professional type jobs are not advertised, dumpthemonarchy. You have headhunters working full time trying to locate suitable candidates for thousands of jobs right this moment all across North America (Us & Canada). This is particularly true for the strategic (VP, president, CEO) type openings. You will usually not see any public announcements for high level openings of this nature.

I know for a fact here within the US, many high tech jobs still remain unfilled to this day, despite recruiting many foreginers, particularly those folks from India that are skilled in software engineering.

As for doctors, the US is in constant need of either experienced doctors, or medical graduates. The situation is so severe that any foreigner who studies medicine here in the US and graduates, may legally remain and adjust their status to permanent resident simply based on their medical degree.

So, yes the shortage does exist. While living in Canada (Montreal), I also recall a huge shortage of high tech workers there as well. Head hunters were recruiting at the universities to try and get a head start before companies were able to snatch up the graduates.

 

[Numure]

Re: RE: Immigration

This would might actually be a good idea, seeing as how Canada has low birth rates and an aging population. However it seems that immigrants seems to all gravitate to already overpopulated areas. I think they should have a plan to give priority to foreigners who are looking to sette in under populated areas such as Sask, Man, and the Maritimes. Some of these provinces are actually losing population, so this might help their economic outlook and give them some healthy growth. Its a much better idea then just trying to cram them into Toronto, Vancouver, and Calgary.

The canadian government should never have the ability to choose where an imigrant will settle.

 

[Shiva]

Re: RE: Immigration

The canadian government should never have the ability to choose where an imigrant will settle.

I've heard people say that it's against human rights for the government to dictate that sort of thing. I personally think that's hogwash.

If the gov't is allowing someone to move to our country because they're a skilled worker, there should be a program in place to direct them to the proper institution to upgrade skills, if required, and then for some time they should work in an area of acute need while they go through the four year residency period waiting to become a Canadian citizen. Afterall, we let them in here precisely because they have skills we need, and to not direct them to the areas where they're needed is silly.

There is only one agency that can handle such a thing nationally, and that is the federal gov't. The alternative would be having ten provinces and three territories duke it out over how much immigration they get, etc., which is simply divisive and counter-productive. The provinces with the best money, the best marketing, would receive more immigrants, rather than those with the greatest need (the reason we're letting immigrants in, in the first place).

 

[Numure]

Re: RE: Immigration

The canadian government should never have the ability to choose where an imigrant will settle.

I've heard people say that it's against human rights for the government to dictate that sort of thing. I personally think that's hogwash.

If the gov't is allowing someone to move to our country because they're a skilled worker, there should be a program in place to direct them to the proper institution to upgrade skills, if required, and then for some time they should work in an area of acute need while they go through the four year residency period waiting to become a Canadian citizen. Afterall, we let them in here precisely because they have skills we need, and to not direct them to the areas where they're needed is silly.

There is only one agency that can handle such a thing nationally, and that is the federal gov't. The alternative would be having ten provinces and three territories duke it out over how much immigration they get, etc., which is simply divisive and counter-productive. The provinces with the best money, the best marketing, would receive more immigrants, rather than those with the greatest need (the reason we're letting immigrants in, in the first place).

The federal government should never have the ability to do that. Its up to the provinces.

 

[Reverend Blair]

RE: Immigration

Then most go to Ontario and Alberta, Numure. Most will also stay in major centres instead of going to small towns.

I think a system where the provinces list their requirements combined with a federal system would be the best answer.

 

[Vitamin C]

Re: Immigration

Why would an immigrant go somewhere where they can't find a job?

And it is clearly against the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms to restrict someone's movement unless they have been convicted of a crime...

That applies to non-Canadians in Canada as well...

I can't believe there are people who think it would OK for the government to dictate where someone has to live.....are we going to start implementing labour camps next?

 

[Reverend Blair]

RE: Immigration

If somebody needs a job, especially if they require additional training for that job, why not make a condition of their immigration?

A perfect example is doctors and nurses. They are needed in small towns all over the country. Most who come here lack Canadian certification and end up driving cabs etc. until they get that certification. Many can never afford to get certified.

Why not pay their tuition on the condition that they put in 5 years where they are needed? A lot of them will discover the advantages of living in a small town and stay.

 

[Shiva]

Re: RE: Immigration

The federal government should never have the ability to do that. Its up to the provinces.

Yes, I was asking why shouldn't the federal gov't have that power? It seems sort of ridiculous that provinces would control immigration instead of the federal gov't. Any normal country would leave it in the hands of the national gov't to determine who has entry to national borders, not leave it to the hands of individual provinces to determine who has entry to their individual border. I believe the only reason provinces were given say on this matter is to help address the concerns of Quebec that they be able to recruit immigrants who have a French background, or are likely to assimilate to the French culture of Quebec.

Why would an immigrant go somewhere where they can't find a job?

And it is clearly against the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms to restrict someone's movement unless they have been convicted of a crime...

That applies to non-Canadians in Canada as well...

I can't believe there are people who think it would OK for the government to dictate where someone has to live.....are we going to start implementing labour camps next

We live in a country that is a constitutional monarchy, with ultimate power invested in an unappointed monarch, completely outside the realm of democracy. When that figurehead is prevented from ruling as a tyrant mostly by mere convention, I have a hard time buying the argument that if we allow the gov't to dictate where immigrants live while they qualify for their citizenship, that suddenly we might have a slippery slope leading to labour camps. Canadian culture is essentially the check and balance on other gov't excesses and I don't see why it wouldn't work here.

Immigration is allowed to happen because we have a need for skilled labour in certain communities. Immigrants are let in on the presumption that they're going to take their skills to the areas where they're needed, because if they weren't doing that, there'd be no reason to permit them entry! The fact that they're not going where they're needed is something that needs to be addressed. Since stopping immigration altogether would just be shooting ourselves in the foot, some other remedy is in order. If not this, I personally don't know what, but stopping the discussion of what to do altogether on ideological grounds is just supporting a status quo damaging to your fellow Canadians.