Canadian Identity: un-American

SirJosephPorter

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Quite so, old boy. Tata, pip pip. You can find answers where you do not look, because you have the ability to see words that are not written.

Have some more tea, old chap.


Well, let us just agree to disagree on that. You haven’t given any reason as to why you think that majority of women support restrictions on pornography, you don’t have an opinion poll, you don’t have an example where a prominent Feminist politician tried to restrict torn, you have nothing.

I have given several reasons why I think that most Feminists oppose restrictions on pornography (mainly because whenever there has been an attempt to restrict pornography, Feminists have come out in the opposition to the attempt).

Anyway, you are entitled to your opinion. Let us agree to disagree and leave it at that.
 
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TenPenny

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Well, let us just agree to disagree on that. You haven’t given any reason as to why you think that majority of women support restrictions on pornography, you don’t have an opinion poll, you don’t have an example where a prominent Feminist politician tried to restrict torn, you have nothing.

I said it was my opinion. I don't have to justify it to you, Lord of Flexible Ethics.

If you did any reading, you'd see that there are quite a few feminist academics who are against pornography.
 

AnnaG

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I remember, the last time there was any attempt to restrict porn in Canada was during the Mulroney era. Mulroney had brought a bill before the Parliament.

The supporters were the usual culprits, religious right, Catholic Church (I remember there were some Catholic conservative women, who enthusiastically supported the bill). Feminists were adamantly opposed to it. Finally the bill died on papers, the session of the parliament ended and there was not enough time to pass the bill. I think shortly after that we had the election.
How many feminists were adamantly opposed to it and WHY?
 

SirJosephPorter

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I said it was my opinion. I don't have to justify it to you, Lord of Flexible Ethics.

If you did any reading, you'd see that there are quite a few feminist academics who are against pornography.


It wouldn’t surprise me if there are some academics who hold that opinion. Academics hold all kinds of opinions. But the point is, would they support attempts to restrict pornography? I seriously doubt it.

I have already said that most women probably are not consumers of porn. That probably means that they don’t like porn. However, feminists are adamantly opposed to any restrictions on porn. Whenever there is any attempt to restrict porn, Feminists invariably come out against it.

While a Feminist may have very low opinion of politicians, that doesn’t mean that she wants to restrict politics. Same way, a Feminist may have very low opinion of porn actresses, but that doesn’t mean that she wants to restrict porn. Feminism is about giving women the choice to do what they want.
 

AnnaG

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Well, let us just agree to disagree on that. You haven’t given any reason as to why you think that majority of women support restrictions on pornography, you don’t have an opinion poll, you don’t have an example where a prominent Feminist politician tried to restrict torn, you have nothing.
Which is exactly what you have..... nothing to support your position.

I have given several reasons why I think that most Feminists oppose restrictions on pornography (mainly because whenever there has been an attempt to restrict pornography, Feminists have come out in the opposition to the attempt).
So what? You have not supported your opinion so no-one could accept it as fact either.
 

AnnaG

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It wouldn’t surprise me if there are some academics who hold that opinion. Academics hold all kinds of opinions. But the point is, would they support attempts to restrict pornography? I seriously doubt it.
That does not mean they support porn either.

I have already said that most women probably are not consumers of porn. That probably means that they don’t like porn. However, feminists are adamantly opposed to any restrictions on porn. Whenever there is any attempt to restrict porn, Feminists invariably come out against it.
So you claim. So far all you have is opinion.

While a Feminist may have very low opinion of politicians, that doesn’t mean that she wants to restrict politics. Same way, a Feminist may have very low opinion of porn actresses, but that doesn’t mean that she wants to restrict porn. Feminism is about giving women the choice to do what they want.
It doesn't mean that they support politics, or porn.
BTW, you've applied your own definition of what feminism is.
What it REALLY is about is
The term Feminism can be used to describe a political, cultural or economic movement aimed at establishing more rights and legal protection for women. Feminism involves political and sociological theories and philosophies concerned with issues of gender difference, as well as a movement that advocates more gender-specific rights for women and campaigns for women's rights and interests.
Wikipedia

a doctrine that advocates equal rights for women
Princeton U. Press

Feminism is a diverse collection of social theories, political movements, and moral philosophies. Some versions are critical of past and present social relations. Many focus on analyzing what they believe to be social constructions of gender and sexuality. Many focus on studying gender inequality and promoting women's rights, interests, and issues. Feminist theory aims to understand the nature of gender inequality and focuses on gender politics, power relations and sexuality. Feminism is also based on experiences of gender roles and relations. Feminist political activism commonly campaign on issues such as reproductive rights, violence within a domestic partnership, maternity leave, equal pay, sexual harassment, discrimination, and sexual violence. Themes explored in feminism include patriarchy, stereotyping, objectification, sexual objectification, and oppression.
Modern feminist theory has been criticized as being predominantly, but not exclusively, associated with Western middle-class academia. Feminist activism, however, is a grass-roots movement that seeks to cross boundaries based on social class, race, culture, and religion. It is culturally specific and addresses issues relevant to the women of that society: for example female circumcision in Sudan, or the glass ceiling in developed economies. Some issues, such as rape, incest, and mothering, are universal.
 What Is Feminism?

Feminism is not a monolith, nor is it a dogma. The only thing you have to believe in order to call yourself a feminist is that ensuring women's freedom and equality of opportunity in all spheres of life is a crucial priority.
The Happy Feminist: FEMINISM 101 -- WHAT IS FEMINISM?

So basically feminism is about equality, not about doing everything that men do. Most women prefer erotica, not porn. And most women do not support porn, we tolerate it. There's an immense difference. Erotica - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 

TenPenny

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It wouldn’t surprise me if there are some academics who hold that opinion. Academics hold all kinds of opinions. But the point is, would they support attempts to restrict pornography? I seriously doubt it.
.

Quite so, old boy. Prove it. Quote us a poll on this subject, isn't that what you expect? I want you to provide three peer-reviewed papers that prove that the majority of feminists are not opposed to pornography.
 

AnnaG

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Supporting freedom of expression, which is what Pomp .... (ooops) Joke is hinting about, is not the same thing as supporting porn. If it were then supporting Holocaust denial, or genocide, or slavery would be the same. Gloria STEINEM would object, I think.
 

SirJosephPorter

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Quite so, old boy. Prove it. Quote us a poll on this subject, isn't that what you expect? I want you to provide three peer-reviewed papers that prove that the majority of feminists are not opposed to pornography.


Oh, is that all? Sure you don’t want me to walk on water? Anyway I have already told you what I base my opinion upon. I haven’t seen any prominent Feminist politician (Pelosi, Hillary, Barbara Boxer etc.) try to restrict porn, whenever there are any attempts to restrict porn, Feminists invariably oppose such an attempt. Also, Feminists always talk of giving women choices, they support a woman’s right to make the choices she wants, rather than impose those choices upon her (by restricting porn).

To me, that is enough evidence on which to base my assertion, that Feminists do not want to restrict porn. You on the other hand, have nothing to support your assertion, that a majority of Feminists are opposed to porn, that they want to restrict porn.

So what evidence you want (three peer reviewed papers, me walking on water or whatever) is irrelevant. I have a reasonable, rational basis for my assertion, you don’t have any basis for your assertion (at least none that I can see), let us leave it at that.
 

TenPenny

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Oh, is that all? Sure you don’t want me to walk on water? Anyway I have already told you what I base my opinion upon. I haven’t seen any prominent Feminist politician (Pelosi, Hillary, Barbara Boxer etc.) try to restrict porn, whenever there are any attempts to restrict porn, Feminists invariably oppose such an attempt. Also, Feminists always talk of giving women choices, they support a woman’s right to make the choices she wants, rather than impose those choices upon her (by restricting porn).

To me, that is enough evidence on which to base my assertion, that Feminists do not want to restrict porn. You on the other hand, have nothing to support your assertion, that a majority of Feminists are opposed to porn, that they want to restrict porn.

So what evidence you want (three peer reviewed papers, me walking on water or whatever) is irrelevant. I have a reasonable, rational basis for my assertion, you don’t have any basis for your assertion (at least none that I can see), let us leave it at that.

Sure, I'll leave it at that. I'm glad that the Lord Mayor of Flexible Ethics has reached equilibrium. You can sleep easy now.
 

ironsides

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In a sense it is a women’s rights issue, ironsides. It is the question of women being allowed to make the choices they want, even if it is in sex business. You will see most Feminists support the right of women to choose to become prostitutes, porn actors etc. While one could argue if these are wise choices, Feminists argue that women must have the freedom to make those choices.

Same as most Feminists would argue that a woman must have the choice to leave the job market and become a housewife if she so chooses.

Freedom does not mean freedom to make only the right choices.

I do not care what radical Feminists think about when it comes to pornography. I do not care if it is the only way they can make money, because that is not a true statement. According to what you are saying, It would be the right of anyone to chose to be a hit person. Women or men for that matter do not have the right to do anything they want with their bodies. As long as their is even a 1% chance that what they do will hurt others it has to be controlled.

So these are your hero's and it is bacuse they haven't spoken out against porn. etc.
"Do you see Pelosi, Hillary Clinton, Barbara Boxer etc. or any of the Democratic female leaders (most of whom are Feminists) speak out against porn? Have they tried to restrict porn in any way? It doesn’t happen."

Wonder have you ever asked them about it?
 

AnnaG

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Oh, is that all? Sure you don’t want me to walk on water?
I have no doubt you think you can.
Anyway I have already told you what I base my opinion upon.
Namely, hot air.
I haven’t seen any prominent Feminist politician (Pelosi, Hillary, Barbara Boxer etc.) try to restrict porn, whenever there are any attempts to restrict porn, Feminists invariably oppose such an attempt. Also, Feminists always talk of giving women choices, they support a woman’s right to make the choices she wants, rather than impose those choices upon her (by restricting porn).
That does not mean they don't object to it or that they support it. Tough for you to distinguish one from the other, I know, but it's pretty evident to some.

To me, that is enough evidence on which to base my assertion, that Feminists do not want to restrict porn. You on the other hand, have nothing to support your assertion, that a majority of Feminists are opposed to porn, that they want to restrict porn.
You didn't read my posts. But, anyway, that's not evidence to support your position, that's evidence to support the idea that they won't restrict it; that's the job of censorship anyway.

So what evidence you want (three peer reviewed papers, me walking on water or whatever) is irrelevant. I have a reasonable, rational basis for my assertion, you don’t have any basis for your assertion (at least none that I can see), let us leave it at that.
Christians do that circular argument crap too. "I have a view and it is supported by this book that I wrote". roflmao "Whatta maroon" - B. Bunny
 

SirJosephPorter

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So these are your hero's and it is bacuse they haven't spoken out against porn. etc.
"Do you see Pelosi, Hillary Clinton, Barbara Boxer etc. or any of the Democratic female leaders (most of whom are Feminists) speak out against porn? Have they tried to restrict porn in any way? It doesn’t happen."

Wonder have you ever asked them about it?

And when do you have to ask a politician about anything, ironsides? Hillary has been in politics for a long time now (so has Pelosi), do you think she would have kept quiet about it if she wanted to restrict pornography? Not a chance.

Also, if Feminists want to restrict porn (as you evidently seem to think; now Democrats are in power. Why aren’t Feminists pestering the Democratic Congress to restrict porn? The fact is Feminists do not want to restrict porn, to them it is the question of giving women more choices. They do not want to restrict a woman’s choice to become a porn star any more than they want to restrict her right to become a doctor.


And why should they be my heroes? I am simply pointing out the fact that Feminists by and large do not favour restricting pornography. If they did, Feminists would be a reliable constituency for the Republican Party, for the religious right.

It would be the right of anyone to chose to be a hit person.

Sure it would be anybody’s right to choose to be a hit person, provided he is willing to face the consequences (arrest, trial, conviction for murder etc.). And anyway, how is that relevant to the discussion here?

Women or men for that matter do not have the right to do anything they want with their bodies. As long as their is even a 1% chance that what they do will hurt others it has to be controlled.


This is where we disagree. And as long as there is 1% chance? Who decides if there is a 1% chance? If I drive a car, there is a possibility that I may hit another car and hurt somebody. Does that mean that government can arbitrarily decide who can and cannot drive the car, that it can (for instance) decide that women are a risk group and therefore must be banned from driving the car?

Women or men do not have the right to hurt others. As long as an act is not done with the intention of hurting others it should be legal. If the unintended side effect is that somebody is hurt (e.g. car accident), then that man or woman should pay the price, the penalty, that doesn’t mean that the act itself can be made illegal.
 
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wulfie68

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I find it laughable that old SirJoe is trying to make an argument on culture revolving around an issue no one cares about.

The last time I remember reading anything in the news about anti-porn (adult) crusaders it was back when Larry Flynt was going toe to toe with some bible thumping wingnuts. Flynt is hardly what ANYONE would call a liberal, more a libertarian, and they seem to sympathize more with the Republicans than the Democrats.

As far as Pelosi or Clinton not crusading about porn why would they? Its not an issue in main stream politics and no one is going to make it one unless they think they can make some political points with some part of a base. That alone should tell you how irrelevant it is in the larger scheme of things. People may not want an adult store/club/etc in their neighbourhood, but thats part of the whole NIMBY attitude thats prevalent on both sides of the border.

In some respects, I think the acceptance of sex in our respective countries is more a cultural similarity than a seperation, because both nations have enshrined freedom of speech/expression to an extent that the only time it is unacceptable is when it leads to harm of another (i.e. child porn, snuff films and the like).
 

SirJosephPorter

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You are quite right, Wulife, pornography is a non issue these days. What we are discussing here is whether Feminists favor restricting pornography or not. My contention is that by and large, they do not care about restricting pornography.

Also a true Libertarian agrees with Democrats as much as he agrees with Republicans (on different issues of course).

Many libertarians who call themselves that are really conservative Republicans masquerading as Libertarians. I suppose Libertarian sounds more glamorous than conservative.

But a true Libertarian will agree with democratic positions on pornography, abortion gay marriage, he would support legalizing all kinds of drugs, he would be opposed to most wars etc. he wants to minimize the role of the government.

He will agree with Republicans on regulating businesses, minimum wage etc.
 

TenPenny

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You are quite right, Wulife, pornography is a non issue these days. What we are discussing here is whether Feminists favor restricting pornography or not. My contention is that by and large, they do not care about restricting pornography.

That wasn't what I was discussing, my point was that, in my opinion, feminists were opposed to pornography. Which is not the same thing, but that's a point tha is hard for some to grasp. In your merry way, you take that to mean wanting to restrict it, and you summarize all feminists based on the three or four female politicians that you've heard of.

But I digress.