Canadian Catholic Church

[sanctus]

Seems to me every time you get fustrated with me you start judging me or is that a priestly trait? I can gaurentee you my experience with your church is very personal and i know a great deal first hand. I speak truth the truth of experience. No sarcasm.

I'm not frustrated with you at all. In the words of young people, "get over yourself", you neither frustrate nor threaten me. You bore me sometimes with your self-appointed expertise on the whole based on your individual experiences, but frustrate me, oh my dear no

You speak YOUR truth, not THE truth. Statistics do not back up your frequent claims that the whole of the Church is abusive to children. In fact, most sexual abuse of children in our society comes from family members.

 

[selfactivated]

Please indicate to me in any post I've ever submitted where I condone the sexual abuse of children by ANYBODY.

YOU told me I didnt have the facts......I DO have the facts and your trying to make them look made up. YOUR trying to change the subject by talking about grown men and women being more relavent..........your taking the focus away from the point. Why?

 

[sanctus]

Look, you have to admit this IS a problem and it IS ignored...........now why isnt something done? It tucked under the rug while children are hurt. I could not back a church that thinks its ok to allow such behavior to go on behind closed doors.

Again, where do you find I've indicated that this is not an issue in the Church? Many things ARE being done, believe you me. Just because you are not aware of them does not mean they do not exist. As hard as this may be for you to appreciate, you are not the sole eye to the truth of this issue in the Church.

 

[selfactivated]

I'm not frustrated with you at all. In the words of young people, "get over yourself", you neither frustrate nor threaten me. You bore me sometimes with your self-appointed expertise on the whole based on your individual experiences, but frustrate me, oh my dear no

You speak YOUR truth, not THE truth. Statistics do not back up your frequent claims that the whole of the Church is abusive to children. In fact, most sexual abuse of children in our society comes from family members.

Me thinks thou protests to much..........do you know why I call you priest? Because it the collar talking.....that sanctamonious bull****e. Take the collar off and reread my posts as a human.

 

[sanctus]

YOU told me I didnt have the facts......I DO have the facts and your trying to make them look made up. YOUR trying to change the subject by talking about grown men and women being more relavent..........your taking the focus away from the point. Why?

Nonsense again. I am not shifting focus from your single issue. I only indicated that what you claimed was prevelant was not so, and that in fact, there are a higher percentage of priests involved in sexual relationships with adult women than with children.

 

[sanctus]

Me thinks thou protests to much..........do you know why I call you priest? Because it the collar talking.....that sanctamonious bull****e. Take the collar off and reread my posts as a human.

Sigh, yes, that's right, only SELF knows the truth, all the rest of us are blinded. Oh, thank God for your wisdom! Please, don't presume to identify what I am thinking or its source. You paint a vivid picture of an issue that is, of course, quite serious, but at the same time you are so focused on this one issue that it fills you with hatred and blindness to the whole.

 

[selfactivated]

Again, where do you find I've indicated that this is not an issue in the Church? Many things ARE being done, believe you me. Just because you are not aware of them does not mean they do not exist. As hard as this may be for you to appreciate, you are not the sole eye to the truth of this issue in the Church.

So how would I know? Take your word for it? Some guy on the internet that says hes a priest? Sorry Ive been up that road and Im not that gullible any more. It dont matter who I am Ive sited reputable sites for my facts. One child is to many.

 

[selfactivated]

Sigh, yes, that's right, only SELF knows the truth, all the rest of us are blinded. Oh, thank God for your wisdom! Please, don't presume to identify what I am thinking or its source. You paint a vivid picture of an issue that is, of course, quite serious, but at the same time you are so focused on this one issue that it fills you with hatred and blindness to the whole.

Yes my dear it is about me, its all about healing, its all about shedding the light of truth in a very dark place.......dont you get it or are you so self serving only your church is in the utmost concern.......they screwed up........they havent fixed it and children get hurt.........children grow up to be adults.

 

[tracy]

you're totally right that it would be wishful thinking to say there were no problems. Even to sit and talk to a priest here, you can chat for hours about the problems and issues within the church... things that need changing, things that need addressing. Abuse coverups are one of the big ones. The more it's talked about, the more it's brought out in the open, the better.

I agree with that. I also don't understand why people link pedophilia with celebacy. Not getting sex doesn't make you want a young boy. I think it's far more likely that pedophiles are drawn to the priesthood since it provides them with the perfect excuse to avoid adult sexual relationships and the opportunity to act out with children.

 

[selfactivated]

I agree with that. I also don't understand why people link pedophilia with celebacy. Not getting sex doesn't make you want a young boy. I think it's far more likely that pedophiles are drawn to the priesthood since it provides them with the perfect excuse to avoid adult sexual relationships and the opportunity to act out with children.

That being said dont you think its the churchs duty to screen these people better........follow up with screening and set up counciling on an on going basis for there priests?

cops have to

 

[tracy]

That being said dont you think its the churchs duty to screen these people better........follow up with screening and set up counciling on an on going basis for there priests?

cops have to

I don't know if they can really screen them before anything happens. If they don't have a criminal record, there is really no way to know beforehand. I do think they have a responsibility to act properly the second one of them is found to be abusing a child. I know as a nurse, I am required by law to report any suspected child abuse to the police and I don't see why the church should be treated any differently. I don't see why any adult should be treated differently. As much as we blame the church, none of these incidents could have ever been covered up had the child's parents been unwilling to go along with it. That is a far greater betrayal in my opinion and we tend to forget about it in our rush to bash the church.

 

[selfactivated]

I don't know if they can really screen them before anything happens. If they don't have a criminal record, there is really no way to know beforehand. I do think they have a responsibility to act properly the second one of them is found to be abusing a child. I know as a nurse, I am required by law to report any suspected child abuse to the police and I don't see why the church should be treated any differently. I don't see why any adult should be treated differently. As much as we blame the church, none of these incidents could have ever been covered up had the child's parents been unwilling to go along with it. That is a far greater betrayal in my opinion and we tend to forget about it in our rush to bash the church.

I TOTALLY agree Tracy BOTH are responcible, but from what Im reading in all of this and from what I know personally these parents are deep believers and would be protecting the church. In my opinion ANYONE harboring a child molester deserves to be prosicuted also, church or parents. No child deserves their childhood ripped from them.

One child is to many.

 

[Sparrow]

Seems to me every time you get fustrated with me you start judging me or is that a priestly trait? I can gaurentee you my experience with your church is very personal and i know a great deal first hand. I speak truth the truth of experience. No sarcasm.

The sentence "I speak truth the truth of EXPERIENCE" really hit me. I think it really shows where the bitterness comes from and honestly I cannot fault this person's comments,

Originally Posted by sanctus
Sigh, yes, that's right, only SELF knows the truth, all the rest of us are blinded. Oh, thank God for your wisdom! Please, don't presume to identify what I am thinking or its source. You paint a vivid picture of an issue that is, of course, quite serious, but at the same time you are so focused on this one issue that it fills you with hatred and blindness to the whole.

I am sure you know what I am referring to and under those circumstances can you really blame that person! This person will never be "over it", there is no cure, their life has been destroyed and if you have not experienced it personally you cannot understand. They were betrayed by people who were symbols of authority and were supposed to take care of them but instead abused them. What I have trouble with is that when they were found out (what we have heard) the Church often transferred them to other parishes instead of removing them from their duties and keeping them away from all contract with children. Don't get me wrong, this is not something only priests did, there have been many in other authority positions that have done the same but I really don't know why it seems to be worse when it is a priest. Maybe because it is or was the image they and the Church portrayed.

 

[selfactivated]

The sentence "I speak truth the truth of EXPERIENCE" really hit me. I think it really shows where the bitterness comes from and honestly I cannot fault this person's comments,

Originally Posted by sanctus
Sigh, yes, that's right, only SELF knows the truth, all the rest of us are blinded. Oh, thank God for your wisdom! Please, don't presume to identify what I am thinking or its source. You paint a vivid picture of an issue that is, of course, quite serious, but at the same time you are so focused on this one issue that it fills you with hatred and blindness to the whole.

I am sure you know what I am referring to and under those circumstances can you really blame that person! This person will never be "over it", there is no cure, their life has been destroyed and if you have not experienced it personally you cannot understand. They were betrayed by people who were symbols of authority and were supposed to take care of them but instead abused them. What I have trouble with is that when they were found out (what we have heard) the Church often transferred them to other parishes instead of removing them from their duties and keeping them away from all contract with children. Don't get me wrong, this is not something only priests did, there have been many in other authority positions that have done the same but I really don't know why it seems to be worse when it is a priest. Maybe because it is or was the image they and the Church portrayed.

Bless, Thank you for hearing me.

 

[karrie]

I don't think it's always something you're born into. Environment plays a big role in how we socialize and what we come to know as normal social interactions. Young children who are molested as young kids can grow up with their first sexual experience being a result of paedophilia and that can make them in turn more likely to have homosexual tendancies as a result of the perpetrator being same sex. However, I do think that nature also has a large hand in the mix, I think in most cases it's just attraction, how our bodies respond to certain stimuli, with cases of learned behaviour being the minority in this case.

I've looked at a whole lot of studies on this kinda stuff, theres lots of shyte out there to sift through, organizations like NAMBLA or FRC with an axe to grind.

Well, if you look at what Dexter was saying (I'm pretty sure it was him), about varying degrees of a pedophilic tendency, then yes, environment would play into it as well as genetics. If you had a small tendency, I believe an instance like a molestation is more likely to cause you to follow the same path. But I don't think it could turn a person who truly did not have that issue. Not all molestation victims go on to molest. But, many do.... the umpteenth reason why coverups need to be exposed and victims addressed.

 

[karrie]

You're actually correct. There are far more cases of priests with female adults then priests abusing children. It is a much larger problem within the Church then that of child abuse. It is also one in which the media is not interested in because it does not sell newspapers or create an aura of sensationalism.

I kind of figured as much, but, without any solid facts to back it up, I couldn't really make the assertion. And you're right, it doesn't sell newspapers. Which is good. The issues of covered up molestations SHOULD sell newspapers, they should be talked about, but perhaps not to the sensational, exagerated degree we see now. You and I were discussing how the attitude of the Canadian church seems to differ from that of the American church, and this is one of the key issues where I see a big difference. People are so much more vocal about it here. People sit to discuss how to confront this issue, and aren't told by their priests to just be good Catholics and be quiet. We're not told to hush up and leave it to the vatican to sort out. We're granted our opinions and our outrage over it.

 

[karrie]

Not the facts, your opinion, one which is not terribly accurate. The Church has taken great strides to deal firmly with this issue amongst its clergy. Even in the past, the majority of diocese's dealt with the situation in much the same way the rest of society at the time did, by trying to keep its evil members from public scrutiny and dealing with them internally. This was pretty much the prevelant attitude for ALL of society in these cases at the time. This is not excusing the Church, but putting it into the context of the society it existed in at the time. Few people even 40 years ago came forward to report sexual abuse of children, or wives for that matter. Much was kept hidden behind closed doors, as was the custom for organizations and individuals.

The government STILL helps individual families to cover up what is occurring, and allows child molestors to carry on with their regular lives so as to not ruffle feathers, or create undue stress on the members involved. I've seen it time and again. Within my own *large* extended family, there are more then four cases of molestation I can think of off the top of my head, that no one dared address. When one did come forward, it created such anger throughout the immediate members involved it was sickening. And the legal system wanted nothing to do with the case. It's frustrating to see.

 

[karrie]

..... would certainly know more about what goes in the Church then I would....

I've always found it interesting how so many people have the view that people who choose to be within the church must be happy with any and all aspects of it. Throughout history the church has changed so dramatically to suit it's congregations, to address issues, that it is practically unrecognizable from what it was centuries ago. I'll never understand why people think heading off to a different church is the answer. They're still human, still flawed by their very nature. Why would you expect that no one is willing to stick around and push for the changes they want, rather than leave? Frankly, you simply can't change any aspect of the church from the outside, becuase like you say, you just don't truly know what's going on. You get what the press tells you, what conspiracy sites have to say, what skewed religious intolerants have to spout on the issue, but it doesn't tell one much about what an actual congregation of people talks about, what they feel.

 

[karrie]

Nonsense. The issue is not celibacy.

If the issue was strictly celibacy, then you'd never see fathers molesting their children. You'd never see men outside of a clergy position molesting children. If only pedophilia was such a simple issue. I'd love for there to be a magic cure to the global issue, like a 'good screw'.

 

[karrie]

I think it's far more likely that pedophiles are drawn to the priesthood since it provides them with the perfect excuse to avoid adult sexual relationships and the opportunity to act out with children.

I tend to think the same thing. But, as someone pointed out to me in this thread, there really must be more to it, because it's such a difficult path to take, when there are much easier ways to guarantee yourself access to children, such as teacher, boyscout leader, etc. I'd be curious to learn all the motivations that draw in men like these. But, I thank God that I'll probably never truly undrstand it all.