Can you forget the "I"?
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No, never, but I have seen how it can affect others, and, if anyone here watched the Diane Sawyer
interview a couple of nights ago, with a woman/mother who went through that situation for years,
they would have seen the results of serious abuse, up close, and on video, as the father, (abuser),
made his young son video tape him, beating up his wife/mother.
Oh god......It never seases to amaze me how sick people can really be....i mean just when you think you seen and heard it all.......
China
Ratz I don't have much time....and so many things keep getting in the way of my writing here...all I can offer is a sloppy on the run message for now...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ego_and_the_Id
Wikipedia are inclined to get thing halfways - but this basic article on Freud's Id,Ego,SuperEgo is pretty much simplified and includes what I believe to be the general modus operandi of humans.
There are always exceptions - huge donations of self to others even in loss of life or injury - gifts beyond what the giver imagined which had been dwelling within for such a moment in time. They may be our deepest selves - I like to think they are the hand of a superior creator giving us strength or insight or breathtaking discovery...
We are a collosal mass of diversities, yet to simply categorize self into one "I" is difficult as there are so many "I"'s: a product of our life, our experiential learning, failures and successes and abilities.
I know I haven't answered your query but my "I" is the act of living, doing necessaries without much planning or thought such as the basics of health and welfare (eating sleeping etc).... and it takes off from there.
Unless the basics are met, there are no others... Ego and SuperEgo are rather developed parasites who need "I" to survive... yet they create the beauty of our experience (or horror).
Ratz I don't have much time....and so many things keep getting in the way of my writing here...all I can offer is a sloppy on the run message for now...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ego_and_the_Id
Wikipedia are inclined to get thing halfways - but this basic article on Freud's Id,Ego,SuperEgo is pretty much simplified and includes what I believe to be the general modus operandi of humans.
There are always exceptions - huge donations of self to others even in loss of life or injury - gifts beyond what the giver imagined which had been dwelling within for such a moment in time. They may be our deepest selves - I like to think they are the hand of a superior creator giving us strength or insight or breathtaking discovery...
We are a collosal mass of diversities, yet to simply categorize self into one "I" is difficult as there are so many "I"'s: a product of our life, our experiential learning, failures and successes and abilities.
I know I haven't answered your query but my "I" is the act of living, doing necessaries without much planning or thought such as the basics of health and welfare (eating sleeping etc).... and it takes off from there.
Unless the basics are met, there are no others... Ego and SuperEgo are rather developed parasites who need "I" to survive... yet they create the beauty of our experience (or horror).
Der Curio, Just glanced at the comp.-( a rather well developed habit) - new city, new hotel -allot of work -no time -interesting post- will answer as soon as I can.
China
China
She explained that she was beaten 'down' over a period of time, (years), and thought of herself as
'nothing', and seemed to believe herself to be, what 'he' told her she was.
She had to call him 'master', even when she phoned him from work, and was a slave to his wishes,
and he had their children brainwashed into believing what he told them about her, when it came
time finally, that she contacted police, (only with the help of her 'lady' boss, who was observing her appearance when arriving to work, and made notes in her journal over a long period of time, and
that was the strongest evidence in court, which brought in the guilty verdict,) as she knew she would be killed very soon, they had her phone her husband, and listened to the conversation, which gave them a clear picture of his behavior, and they also took the videos, and they were shown in court. Her daughter, the oldest stayed with her dad, and also testified 'against' her mom,( I think she was 19 at that time),
in court, but after a long time in counselling, she is now together with her mom and
brothers.
The husband was found guilty and sentenced to 35 years in prison.
The judge stated that the husband had totally ruined a complete family, and when he
was being interviewed, he (the judge),shed tears.
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Every Thursday with the exception of the weeks where a major holiday may fall on that evening, I meet with a group of battered people - men and women - married, single, and all the variations thereof in relationships.
There is nothing more creative that the exquisite horror of what some people will do to another - many times associated with what we call 'love'. I once thought I was familiar with all the terrible things people will deliver and receive but I was wrong - there seems to be no limit to the cruelty.
And yet the beaten are often requested to 'prove' their desperation to our legal community.
There is nothing more creative that the exquisite horror of what some people will do to another - many times associated with what we call 'love'. I once thought I was familiar with all the terrible things people will deliver and receive but I was wrong - there seems to be no limit to the cruelty.
And yet the beaten are often requested to 'prove' their desperation to our legal community.
Dear China .... enjoy your new environment!!! No hurry.... always look forward to your replies...
Cynical? I disagree, Doc. Realistic is more accurate. Or at least in line with my view of reality. (That, by the way, has been questioned more than once!
)Enlightened self interest is a good thing. When we do something good for someone else and we benefit from that act ourselves (even emotionally), it's win/win. My life is about finding the win/win whenever possible. I don't believe in compromise -- that just means that both people are doing something they don't want to do. I believe in finding the solution where everyone is honestly happy.
Twila ...
Just my opinion here, but I still think that this falls under self interest. If I ran into a burning building to save a child or a puppy, I would only do so because it would feel like the "right" thing for me to do. Following what I believe is "right" -- especially in those times when there isn't the opportunity to weigh pros and cons -- lets me know who I am at the core. The reason I would do something like that is because I would always regret NOT doing it. Living with myself afterward means following what I believe is moral instead of carrying regret.
I really don't think there are any truly selfless acts. When I say that, many people see it as negative, but it's not meant to be. If we all behave in good and decent ways in order to sustain a positive image of ourselves, it can't help but serve the world in a virtuous manner. Win/win.
As some of you have pointed out, there really is no limit to the evil one human and perpetrate upon another. I think those people are damaged. The "I" has been disfigured somewhere along the line and a wrong headed sense of self interest prevails. Sad.
A leitmotif to physical abuse seems to be a marked lack of self esteem. An abandonment of the "I", if you will. I think the topic fits well into this discussion since anyone with a strong sense of self is not going to be abused. Kudos to you, Curio, for your work with these folks. Rebuilding the self takes an enormous amount of work (been there, done that) and having the right support along the way is critical.
But, to kinda make a point, the fact that you are doing good works has got to give you tremendous satisfaction. If it didn't, you'd probably take up surfing instead. Thankfully it's often true that doing good for someone else leaves one feeling happy and exhilarated which, in turn, empowers us to do even more good works. The more we do, the better we feel. The better we feel, the more we do. And in the end it comes down to following what we believe is good and right. Enlightened self interest.
Good Essay Cosmo - Good thoughts and information too!
Sounds like you have been immersed in some self-evaluation over the past months - and this can only set you free to be who you are and where you intend to go.
An excellent path to be on. Very happy for you.
Sounds like you have been immersed in some self-evaluation over the past months - and this can only set you free to be who you are and where you intend to go.
An excellent path to be on. Very happy for you.
Self awareness. . .
First off, most of us are still dualists - we think of the "I" of ourselves as something that is doing the thinking, a "homonculus", a little fella inside the head, and we think of our bodies as something separate that the mind acts upon, or through.
Others think of consciousness as nothing more than an emergent property from an exceedingly complex system - the trillions of different connections and pathways neuronal firings can take. Make something complex and subtle enough, and eventually it becomes aware of itself.
A beetle or a paramecium lives by its genetic programming, or its chemical needs - the beetle can most likely not even feel pain - the paramecium most certainly cannot. Move a little higher up the brain development scale, say to a reptile, and they can feel pain, have a short memory, but still act and react by rote, by instinct, and are not aware of their future existence.
Move on up to apes and we plan for the future, lie, cheat, make jokes sacrifice ourselves for the good of the clan, etcetera.
This is all a gross oversimplication, but you get the picture, I hope.
Perhaps our sense of self is an illusion, a convenient vehicle, or setting, for all the sense experiences we have. Maybe self-identity is nothing more than a "narrative centre of gravity."
Maybe we are slaves (in a way) to our genes - even moral behaviour is an adaptation to group living. The group or clan (all with closely related DNA) that co-operates and helps its sick or wounded members, that shares and nurtures, will thrive much better than the selfish and cutthroat one.
I'm rambling, and I've got a bicycle to fix.
Pangloss
First off, most of us are still dualists - we think of the "I" of ourselves as something that is doing the thinking, a "homonculus", a little fella inside the head, and we think of our bodies as something separate that the mind acts upon, or through.
Others think of consciousness as nothing more than an emergent property from an exceedingly complex system - the trillions of different connections and pathways neuronal firings can take. Make something complex and subtle enough, and eventually it becomes aware of itself.
A beetle or a paramecium lives by its genetic programming, or its chemical needs - the beetle can most likely not even feel pain - the paramecium most certainly cannot. Move a little higher up the brain development scale, say to a reptile, and they can feel pain, have a short memory, but still act and react by rote, by instinct, and are not aware of their future existence.
Move on up to apes and we plan for the future, lie, cheat, make jokes sacrifice ourselves for the good of the clan, etcetera.
This is all a gross oversimplication, but you get the picture, I hope.
Perhaps our sense of self is an illusion, a convenient vehicle, or setting, for all the sense experiences we have. Maybe self-identity is nothing more than a "narrative centre of gravity."
Maybe we are slaves (in a way) to our genes - even moral behaviour is an adaptation to group living. The group or clan (all with closely related DNA) that co-operates and helps its sick or wounded members, that shares and nurtures, will thrive much better than the selfish and cutthroat one.
I'm rambling, and I've got a bicycle to fix.
Pangloss
Curiosity ,
I don't think any book can teach you about yourself ,no Bible , no Gita, no forum, none of the psychologists , psychiatrists , philosophers not even Mr.Freud can teach you about your self. What Mr. Freud can teach us is what he thinks we are or what he thinks we should be,and that is, his opinion, which is not our opinion , at least not mine. We have for centuries upon centuries accepted the authority of others, of priests , gurus, the traditions (China - big time) , what other people have said and so on .That is why we have no energy, that is why we are so dull, insensitive, and that is why most of us are secondhand human beings. Oh doctor ,heal yourself .
And that's my "opinion" .
I don't think any book can teach you about yourself ,no Bible , no Gita, no forum, none of the psychologists , psychiatrists , philosophers not even Mr.Freud can teach you about your self. What Mr. Freud can teach us is what he thinks we are or what he thinks we should be,and that is, his opinion, which is not our opinion , at least not mine. We have for centuries upon centuries accepted the authority of others, of priests , gurus, the traditions (China - big time) , what other people have said and so on .That is why we have no energy, that is why we are so dull, insensitive, and that is why most of us are secondhand human beings. Oh doctor ,heal yourself .
And that's my "opinion" .
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Dueling is illegal, ya know Pangloss.
Well, maybe not in Alberta...
I only like women, Pangloss.
I think what we call self-consciousness, or that "I" consciousness, is nothing else but the result of environment; that is, when the mind and heart do not understand environment, the surroundings, the conditions in which an individual finds himself, then through the lack of that understanding, conflict is created. Mind is clouded by this conflict, and this continual conflict creates memory and becomes identified with mind and thus this idea of "I", of ego consciousness, becomes hardened. Hence further conflict, suffering and pain. But the understanding of the circumstances, the surroundings, the conditions which create this conflict does not come through substitution but through intelligence, which is mind and love; that intelligence which is ever self-creating, always in movement. And that to me is eternity, a timeless reality. Whereas, we are seeking the perpetuation of that consciousness which is the result of environment, which we call the "I", and that "I" can disappear only when there is the understanding of environment. Intelligence then functions normally, without restraint or compulsion. Then there is not this frightful struggle, this search for beauty, search for truth, and the constant battle of possessive love, because intelligence itself is complete.
From what I've heard, loss of the "I" (or ego death) can be terribly frightening, and also enormously enlightening. Many believe that nirvana lies on the other side of ego death.