Calling all Separatists!

[Leveller]

Re: RE: Calling all Separatists!

Forget all this talk of the BNA act and the repatriation. We should scrap it all and start fresh with something that reflects our current social and economic situation.

Nice idea in principle, but there are so many entrenched interests I can't see that doing anything but creating massive political instability and uncertainty for a long time...

I don't know what the solution is, but I do think Canada, as a nation and an idea, is worth preserving.

We have quite a lot of political instability and uncertainty right now, and upsetting the "entrenched interests" would be a step towards climbing out that situation into one of greater stability and certainty. Why can't we invent a whole new set of arrangements between the regions and the different interests that reflect modern reality? Has society suddenly stopped evolving? I think that reality has outstripped the political framework which now needs to be completely renewed. Modernizing Canada "as a nation and idea" is the only way to preserve what is of value in it.

 

[cub1c]

Leveller, your post touched me a lot.
And it comes from Ontario, wow!

Thanks

 

[DasFX]

Re: RE: Calling all Separatists!

We have quite a lot of political instability and uncertainty right now, and upsetting the "entrenched interests" would be a step towards climbing out that situation into one of greater stability and certainty. Why can't we invent a whole new set of arrangements between the regions and the different interests that reflect modern reality? Has society suddenly stopped evolving? I think that reality has outstripped the political framework which now needs to be completely renewed. Modernizing Canada "as a nation and idea" is the only way to preserve what is of value in it.

I would be in favour of this modernization of Canada, however we don't have people in power with enough courage and selflessness to bring it about. How could anything be negotiated without willing participants?

In terms of Quebec, if a new modern version of Canada was proposed, one that provided the tools of self determination that Quebec seeks, would Gille Duceppe, Bernard Laundry or Jacques Parizeau sit down and negotiate? I think not.

To me as an outsider, the only men (in my life time) who really cared for the Quebec people and who were really seeking a better deal for Quebec (even if it meant staying in the confederation) were 1) Rene Levesque, 2) Lucien Bouchard and 3) Robert Bourassa. Two of them were separatist, but they were open. Separatism was their favourable option, however it didn't have to be. They other three I listed above have tunnel vision and would turn down anything that isn't separation.

 

[cub1c]

RE: Calling all Separatis

The federalists, did everything to crush separatists movement. They also did a great job to convince ROC citizen that they are evil.

Someone ever listened to Stephan Dion when he speaks in Québec's medias? It is so awful!! He does absolutly nothing to convince separatists they are wrong, instead, he continues to arrogantly putting all the blame on the separatists movement. He is giving strengh to the separatists when he opens his mouth. And we are lucky that he is the only one speaking french because we have the idea (i'm pretty sure it is true) that the whole federalists think like him, and let me tell you that it doesn't play in their advantage!!! He is constantly alienating half of the population of Québec. He's just an example.

Like Jacques Parizeau said monday: "I just can't explain the massive intolerance they (the federalists) have towards Québecers mentality that is to decide of their future." (poor translation, he communicates so well in french that it's hard to translate in another language, doesn't have the same effect)

And what do I hear now? We have to be open to make deals and concessions? When the federals wants to make a deal it's because they want to buy time.

Not only federalists thinks we should not change the way Canada work, but a modernization of Canada would mean less authority to the federal, and it's just not compatible with their views!

People need to let go the idea of "modernization" of Canada. Québecers asked federal to modernize since the beginning and, even with a threat of separation, they didn't move. What makes Canadians believe "If we ask them to modernize, they will probably do it?" Yeah right.

 

[DasFX]

Re: RE: Calling all Separatis

What makes Canadians believe "If we ask them to modernize, they will probably do it?" Yeah right.

Hey, I'm not promoting any of the federalist politician here, we think they are just as bad as Quebecers do. As for getting a change, if the provinces presented a united front, that would force ottawa to change.

 

[cub1c]

As for getting a change, if the provinces presented a united front, that would force ottawa to change.

That's all nice, but can you admit it won't happen?

 

[Numure]

Re: RE: Calling all Separatis

What makes Canadians believe "If we ask them to modernize, they will probably do it?" Yeah right.

Hey, I'm not promoting any of the federalist politician here, we think they are just as bad as Quebecers do. As for getting a change, if the provinces presented a united front, that would force ottawa to change.

Tried and failed.

 

[DasFX]

That's all nice, but can you admit it won't happen?

I can't admit that, I cannot see into the future. Canada isn't perfect and there are lots of problems, but of the 200 or so countries in the world, it is still one of the best. Of the over 5 billion people on this planet, I think I have it pretty good. I'm optimistic; I'm hoping that things will change in a positive way.

What will being negative get me? If I cannot believe that a civilized country like Canada cannot learn to solve its own problems, then how can I expect all the other terrible things in the world to get better?

Now, I have no basis for the following comment, but I think Quebecers like being part of Canada, it helps unite them together. No matter where you are in Quebec, you can always point to Ottawa and blame them for something. I mean if Quebec forms its own nation, pointing at Quebec City and blaming them for the same problems won't be as galvanizing.

 

[Leveller]

Re: RE: Calling all Separatists!

I would be in favour of this modernization of Canada, however we don't have people in power with enough courage and selflessness to bring it about. How could anything be negotiated without willing participants?

You're right about that. But on the other hand, I think that the Canadian people have to appreciate the potential power they have in their hands, under the right circumstances. Another referendum in Quebec unlocks the door to people being able to effect changes that are in their favour. The Liberals and Conservatives will be in tatters. A huge space will be opened up for constitutional and democratic renewal. The willing participants are us. People across the country will have to decide who will represent them in the new situation. There will be opportunities for people to have their say about how to build a modern Canada with a sovereign Quebec (and First Nations). If you look at it objectively there is an opportunity and we would have to make the best of it and see what possibilities there are within the new situation to advance. It doesn't mean we have to agree with the policies of politicians in Quebec or in other places. It means that we stop looking at this thing as an issue of "Canadian unity" and start seeing it as an opportunity to renew Canada.

In terms of Quebec, if a new modern version of Canada was proposed, one that provided the tools of self determination that Quebec seeks, would Gille Duceppe, Bernard Laundry or Jacques Parizeau sit down and negotiate? I think not.

In fact, the PQ program (I was looking at it today) is quite explicit on this point. Yes, they are bound by it to make an offer of economic and political partnership with Canada, and they would have to do it because a large number of people voting yes in a referendum would not go along with it otherwise. So there is a legal framework they have to adhere to. Would they be sincere? I worry more about the threats and intransigeance of the Liberals and Conservatives. Also, the Quebec economy does not exist in a bottle sealed off from everything else. There is something like $30 billion per year of trade between Quebec and Ontario. It is irrational to think that Ontario would trade with the US and every other country (whose sovereignty they recognize, incidentally) and would refuse to trade with Quebec. There would simply have to be new arrangements. Opportunities like this don't come around very often.

 

[DasFX]

Whatever happened to the ADQ and Mario Dumont? What is the ADQ platform, where do they stand on separation? Are they a viable choice for Quebers? On the surface, they seem to be a nice compromise between the PQ and Liberals.

 

[Nosferax]

Re: RE: Calling all Separatists!

Whatever happened to the ADQ and Mario Dumont? What is the ADQ platform, where do they stand on separation? Are they a viable choice for Quebers? On the surface, they seem to be a nice compromise between the PQ and Liberals.

The ADQ is nothing more than a version of Conservative "Light".
And the guy (Dumont) changes is program almost every week depending on the polls.

 

[Numure]

Re: RE: Calling all Separatists!

Whatever happened to the ADQ and Mario Dumont? What is the ADQ platform, where do they stand on separation? Are they a viable choice for Quebers? On the surface, they seem to be a nice compromise between the PQ and Liberals.

Right wing parties don't hold up much in Québec. Not since la révolution tranquille.

 

[Ondrej]

Hi, I have been reading through this interesting debate and I would like to give you few of my personal remarks. I am from the country that was a federation once, just like Canada is now - from the Czech Republic, former Czechoslovakia. It was not in 1993 very different than in Canada now. There was one part of the country, heavily subsidized economically but somehow thinking that living in federation hampers its nationalist ambitions. The Slovaks elected their leaders from separatist camp, so they went - and no referendum was even called for it.

What was after is history. There were suddenly no subsidies flowing into Slovakia. There was no one to blackmail for funds. So the Slovak currency "Slovak Koruna" plummeted 10 per cent just a few months from the dissolution. Their unemployment levels reached new highs, in some parts it is still over 25-30 per cent. Their nationalist government was so unappealing to the Czechs that we "normalized" our relations with the Slovaks in a way that they were officially nothing else than the relations with Germany, Austria or France.

The Slovak people started to rethink their position quite soon, in 1995 there were first articles published with a notion that dissolution was not perhaps the greatest idea of the world. I was working there for quite a while in 2001-2003 and I spoke just out of curiousity with some people there, you know, over a pint of beer. They all told me that knowing what will happen next, they would NEVER, EVER support separatist party in the 1992 elections.

So this is just a food for thought for all you advocates for Québec separatism. We have lived through it and the Slovaks really did not like it too much. Now we are both members of EU and for many of them (again, based on my unscientific talks with people), accession to the EU is perceived as "unity again with the Czechs in a larger body".

 

[s_lone]

The only anti-seperatist arguments that affect me are economical. Ondrej from former Czech Republic raises a very serious and interesting issue. In fact, one of the only reasons Quebec is still part of Canada is because Quebecers are afraid of the economical impact seperation would have. On a patriotic and emotional point of view, it is a fact that most Quebecers don't feel very Canadian. But all this Quebec-Canada relationship really looks like an old dried up couple staying together for money and material reasons. There ain't much love going on even if we can live together like civilized people. Without a doubt, seperation could put Quebec in a tough economic situation, in the same way that breaking a marriage can be quite costly. But I think this always depends on the good will of the two (Quebec and ROC in this case...). The Czech Republic is an interesting example of seperation but nothing can proove this is how things would go here in a post-seperation Quebec. North Amercica is different than Europe and it has a different political reality. Independance is about courage and Quebecers will need to courage to finally seperate. After seperation, it won't be time to wine and regret our decision, it'll be time to be strong, adult, and take things into our own hands.

 

[I think not]

Re: RE: Calling all Separatists!

The only anti-seperatist arguments that affect me are economical. Ondrej from former Czech Republic raises a very serious and interesting issue. In fact, one of the only reasons Quebec is still part of Canada is because Quebecers are afraid of the economical impact seperation would have. On a patriotic and emotional point of view, it is a fact that most Quebecers don't feel very Canadian. But all this Quebec-Canada relationship really looks like an old dried up couple staying together for money and material reasons. There ain't much love going on even if we can live together like civilized people. Without a doubt, seperation could put Quebec in a tough economic situation, in the same way that breaking a marriage can be quite costly. But I think this always depends on the good will of the two (Quebec and ROC in this case...). The Czech Republic is an interesting example of seperation but nothing can proove this is how things would go here in a post-seperation Quebec. North Amercica is different than Europe and it has a different political reality. Independance is about courage and Quebecers will need to courage to finally seperate. After seperation, it won't be time to wine and regret our decision, it'll be time to be strong, adult, and take things into our own hands.

Seems like your economy is pretty good:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Quebec
http://english.republiquelibre.org/economics.html
http://www.internationalspecialreports.com/archives/00/quebec/

 

[Numure]

Re: RE: Calling all Separatists!

The only anti-seperatist arguments that affect me are economical. Ondrej from former Czech Republic raises a very serious and interesting issue. In fact, one of the only reasons Quebec is still part of Canada is because Quebecers are afraid of the economical impact seperation would have. On a patriotic and emotional point of view, it is a fact that most Quebecers don't feel very Canadian. But all this Quebec-Canada relationship really looks like an old dried up couple staying together for money and material reasons. There ain't much love going on even if we can live together like civilized people. Without a doubt, seperation could put Quebec in a tough economic situation, in the same way that breaking a marriage can be quite costly. But I think this always depends on the good will of the two (Quebec and ROC in this case...). The Czech Republic is an interesting example of seperation but nothing can proove this is how things would go here in a post-seperation Quebec. North Amercica is different than Europe and it has a different political reality. Independance is about courage and Quebecers will need to courage to finally seperate. After seperation, it won't be time to wine and regret our decision, it'll be time to be strong, adult, and take things into our own hands.

Seems like your economy is pretty good:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Quebec
http://english.republiquelibre.org/economics.html
http://www.internationalspecialreports.com/archives/00/quebec/

It is doing very well. The corporations that are still here won't leave, as a result of seperation. The ones that wanted to, already have. Its what made Ontario what it is today.

If we don't stab ourself in the foot after, and create a good economic enviroment, we have nothing to fear.

 

[Ondrej]

Re: RE: Calling all Separatists!

The only anti-seperatist arguments that affect me are economical. Ondrej from former Czech Republic raises a very serious and interesting issue. In fact, one of the only reasons Quebec is still part of Canada is because Quebecers are afraid of the economical impact seperation would have. On a patriotic and emotional point of view, it is a fact that most Quebecers don't feel very Canadian. But all this Quebec-Canada relationship really looks like an old dried up couple staying together for money and material reasons. There ain't much love going on even if we can live together like civilized people. Without a doubt, seperation could put Quebec in a tough economic situation, in the same way that breaking a marriage can be quite costly. But I think this always depends on the good will of the two (Quebec and ROC in this case...). The Czech Republic is an interesting example of seperation but nothing can proove this is how things would go here in a post-seperation Quebec. North Amercica is different than Europe and it has a different political reality. Independance is about courage and Quebecers will need to courage to finally seperate. After seperation, it won't be time to wine and regret our decision, it'll be time to be strong, adult, and take things into our own hands.

One small correction - The Czech Republic is "now", Czechoslovakia is "former". 8)

On other issues - it is right that nothing can proove this is how things would go in post-separation Québec. Look, I am in no position to judge you Québecois after only one semester of Canadian Studies here in Prague but what I wanted to say is that we did not realize how much we liked our Federation until it was gone. Not for economical ties only, you see... The Slovaks definitely did not lack courage or will to take things into their own hands. However, no one anticipated the reaction of elites of both states. The Slovaks were so proud of their new state it was almost annoying. The Czech elites became very distant to negotiate with them on anything else, because many of the ministers, deputies and executive in general favoured the federation to continue and saw dissolution as their personal failure. Second, it was incredibly hard for Slovaks to see the growth of the Czech Republic, they thought that if the federation continued they would share it. It is another matter they are growing faster now, but they are still behind in infrastructure and quality of life, mainly in certain regions (Eastern Slovakia).

So this is my point. You never realize what you lost until you actually lose it. And when you do, it cannot be taken back.

 

[DasFX]

Re: RE: Calling all Separatists!

The Slovaks definitely did not lack courage or will to take things into their own hands. However, no one anticipated the reaction of elites of both states. The Slovaks were so proud of their new state it was almost annoying. The Czech elites became very distant to negotiate with them on anything else, because many of the ministers, deputies and executive in general favoured the federation to continue and saw dissolution as their personal failure. Second, it was incredibly hard for Slovaks to see the growth of the Czech Republic, they thought that if the federation continued they would share it. It is another matter they are growing faster now, but they are still behind in infrastructure and quality of life, mainly in certain regions (Eastern Slovakia).

So this is my point. You never realize what you lost until you actually lose it. And when you do, it cannot be taken back.

Ahoy Ondrej!

I agree with your points about not knowing what one has, until it is gone. However unlike the former Czechoslovakia, where the Czech Republic doesn't not really miss Slovakia, I think both Quebec and English Canada will regret separation.

It all depends on what kind of country Quebec wants to be. They can exist, as an independent, but to what degree is unknown. What can of influence does Quebec want? Financial, socially, what will Quebec's sphere of influence be? The CR is becoming a prominent country and making an impact on the new Europe, whereas Slovakia is just Slovakia.

Perhaps Quebecer just wants to separate, focus on issues internally and mind its own business and enjoy their lives in Quebec on their own.

North America is different than Europe and it has a different political reality. Independance is about courage and Quebecers will need to courage to finally seperate.

NA is very different, but not in Quebec's favour. It would be much easier to break off and become a strong nation in Europe. It is a continent of small countries of equal size. In the Americas Quebec would be neighbours with a unilingual nation 40 times its size population and with a nation of ex compatriot 3.5 times its size. Not to mention, it would be smaller than most Latin countries. That is if everyone stays, I'm sure many people would leave and I doubt people would all of a sudden start having more babies to increase population and immigrants would be more inclined to go to the ROC and the US rather than the new Quebec.

Like I said before, what type of country does Quebec want to be?

 

[jackd]

Trying to make a parallel between Slovakia and Quebec is quite an acrobatic exercise.
Without trying to denigrate Slovakia, Quebec is in a totally different economic reality.
Annual national budget: Slov: $15 Billion, Quebec $43Billions
GDP: Slovakia: $78Billion, Quebec: $210Billion
GDP per capita: Slov: $14,500, Québec $27,789.
Inflation rate: Sovakia 7.5%, Quebec, 2.3%
Balance of payments: Slov:$1.4billion negative, Quebec: 53Billions, positive.
Slova: Landlocked
Quebec. Opened to the world with majors ports.

 

[s_lone]

Das FX said:

In the Americas Quebec would be neighbours with a unilingual nation 40 times its size population and with a nation of ex compatriot 3.5 times its size.

It's the way it's been for quite a while now and I think Quebecers have shown their culture and society are not about to be swallowed by the rest of North America. Let's not forget that French Quebecers are a minority among many other minorities in North America. North America is a huge melting pot of cultures and I certainly wouldn't feel threatened by new political frontiers. We are a pretty strong North American minority and whatever economic power we lose, I have no doubt that Quebec will strike back and stand out in it's own way with new and modern accomplishments.