Calling all Separatists!

[Numure]

Re: RE: Calling all Separatists!

If there will be a referendum, I'll vote yes, because I'm proud to be a Québécois and I support what my ancestor did in the past... And I don't really stand English-Canadian, who always bash us... They really don't have something more interesting in their life to do..

(Sorry my English...)

Pas tout les Anglo nous haie. Many respect us, and see us as equals. That is , what we are.

 

[Numure]

Re: RE: Calling all Separatis

Not everyone in English Canada bashes you, just like everone does not bash Alberta. Sure a vocal group do, but Quebec seperation effects all of Canada and not just Quebec.

I know there are issues and problems, but don't mature people sit down and work their problems out? Every region has their own issues and problems as well.

I ask this next question civily and out of curiosity, even though it will more than likely never happen:

What would you think of letting all citizens in Canada voting to see if we want Quebec to seperate or not from Canada?

I bet it would be over 70% yes, for Quebec to stay. After all the rest of us have a stake in this too.

Thats like asking(A referendum) Isreal if they should give Palestine their land back.

 

[DasFX]

The diference was 53,782 votes
Taking into account 43,917 new immigrants in Quebec were given canadian status in a few months prior to the referendum, (of which 11,500, 4 weeks or less before the referendum........... come-up to your own conclusions.

Do the math, you still would have lost, just by fewer votes. How do you know all those immigrants voted no, isn't it a confidential vote? You cannot say for sure.

 

[jackd]

DasFX:
True, I can not say for sure but a little logic tells me that if anyone is officially admitted to a country, he would most probably not vote to dismember same a few weeks later.
This, plus the millions of $$$$ of illegal money used by the no side, (have you watched the Gomery inquiry lately???) the scare tactics used by the federal government, the very touching and artificial "we love you" campaign orchestrated by the federal government all contributed to skew the end result.
At the end of the day, if all those factors had not played......

 

[DasFX]

DasFX:
True, I can not say for sure but a little logic tells me that if anyone is officially admitted to a country, he would most probably not vote to dismember same a few weeks later.
This, plus the millions of $$$$ of illegal money used by the no side, (have you watched the Gomery inquiry lately???) the scare tactics used by the federal government, the very touching and artificial "we love you" campaign orchestrated by the federal government all contributed to skew the end result.
At the end of the day, if all those factors had not played......

People can flip their opinions. Many may have just said they would go along with the government to gain their papers.

Besides, I thought this desire for nationhood had been festering for over 300 years, that is was deep in the hearts and minds of touts les Quebecois! I guess the movement isn't as strong as you thought if a few extra signs and ads, as well as a big Canada parade were all it took to lose the referendum.

Scare tactics, what's wrong with that? Do you really think the No side was going to point out the virtues of separation? If this movement was indeed so deep and ingrained, Quebec would be celebrating its 25th year of independence this month and not celebrating Victoria Day!

 

[Numure]

DasFX:
True, I can not say for sure but a little logic tells me that if anyone is officially admitted to a country, he would most probably not vote to dismember same a few weeks later.
This, plus the millions of $$$$ of illegal money used by the no side, (have you watched the Gomery inquiry lately???) the scare tactics used by the federal government, the very touching and artificial "we love you" campaign orchestrated by the federal government all contributed to skew the end result.
At the end of the day, if all those factors had not played......

People can flip their opinions. Many may have just said they would go along with the government to gain their papers.

Besides, I thought this desire for nationhood had been festering for over 300 years, that is was deep in the hearts and minds of touts les Quebecois! I guess the movement isn't as strong as you thought if a few extra signs and ads, as well as a big Canada parade were all it took to lose the referendum.

Scare tactics, what's wrong with that? Do you really think the No side was going to point out the virtues of separation? If this movement was indeed so deep and ingrained, Quebec would be celebrating its 25th year of independence this month and not celebrating Victoria Day!

We arnt celebrating Victoria Day. Its Patriots Day, for us. To remember the Patriots that died in a revolt in the 19th century.

Now, our dream is there, it has always been. But we are peaceful. We could of seperated earlier, taken up arms, and start shooting everywhere. Is that what you want? I doubt it. We are debating the issues, as a society that respects the others opinion. Thats why its taking time. Its an ongoing debate. But what has, and continues to block us the most, is the older generations. They don't have the same, affinity to our Nation. They grew up in a very Catholic, obedient Québec. One where rebel, revolt, and going against the goverment was a sin. Québec is only very liberal, unreligious, and nationalistique since la Révolution Tranquille of the 60's.

But to be honest Das, in the end, I don't really care much what you think. You arnt part of the Issue. It is an internal one.

http://forums.doyoulookgood.com/viewtopic.php?t=31814&start=0&sid=b438bb0c3a3ab5f109b37f5a1e42add7

Go here, use your french a little, and notice the dialog. The on going dialog, of our youth. This can be seen on most Québec forums. Seperation is an ongoing issue in our lives. It is never dead, no matter what anyone can say. We discusse, and argue about it every day. My own family is divided on the issue.

But as the decades pass, more support our cause. Because in the end, if Canada does not change, we shall win.

 

[no1important]

RE: Calling all Separatis

But we are peaceful

maybe at the moment but that has not always been the case. And it could change relatively quick to being non peaceful.

 

[Knightman]

Has anyone ever considered that all the provinces should seperate?

Seperate from what?

The fact that our federal government has been responsible for most of the problems especailly over the last 40 years that has caused the provinces and regions to feel the need to go their own route is the problem.

Every province has special intrests, special needs and its own style and culture to it. Our system of federal governance is what has caused our nations difficulties in terms of regional dissatisfaction, change that and we are on our way to solving some of the major problems. Give the provinces total control of their own affairs and physical and finincial resources.

As long as our current system of federal government exists we will always have these problems.

We do not need to seperate from anything, we need to shift the power to the provinces and their populations..........

 

[jimmoyer]

Interesting concept.

You say not to seperate, you say you just want the federal govt to give power back to the province?

How will you then maintain a union?

What powers should stay with the national govt?

What powers should the national govt give back to the province?

 

[Knightman]

Re: RE: Calling all Separatists!

Interesting concept.

You say not to seperate, you say you just want the federal govt to give power back to the province?

How will you then maintain a union?

What powers should stay with the national govt?

What powers should the national govt give back to the province?

I have layed out the basic concepts on this thread you are welcome to review the ideas.

http://www.canadiancontent.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=5069&highlight=

 

[jimmoyer]

Thanks Knightman. Sorry.

That is indepth !!

Your analysis has broad implications for every western democracy that has continental reach.

Also your ideas, just as the formation of the states below you could greatly inform the European Union.

But maybe none of us prefer to learn from others.

 

[Numure]

Re: RE: Calling all Separatists!

Interesting concept.

You say not to seperate, you say you just want the federal govt to give power back to the province?

How will you then maintain a union?

What powers should stay with the national govt?

What powers should the national govt give back to the province?

Read the hole thread. I've wrote something about the changes needed in the first pages.

 

[Numure]

Re: RE: Calling all Separatis

But we are peaceful

maybe at the moment but that has not always been the case. And it could change relatively quick to being non peaceful.

We've been peaceful since the revolt of the patriots. Only thing that could turn us to violence is if the feds turn to violence.

 

[DasFX]

We arnt celebrating Victoria Day. Its Patriots Day, for us. To remember the Patriots that died in a revolt in the 19th century.

Now, our dream is there, it has always been. But we are peaceful. We could of seperated earlier, taken up arms, and start shooting everywhere. Is that what you want? I doubt it. We are debating the issues, as a society that respects the others opinion. Thats why its taking time. Its an ongoing debate. But what has, and continues to block us the most, is the older generations. They don't have the same, affinity to our Nation. They grew up in a very Catholic, obedient Québec. One where rebel, revolt, and going against the goverment was a sin. Québec is only very liberal, unreligious, and nationalistique since la Révolution Tranquille of the 60's.

But to be honest Das, in the end, I don't really care much what you think. You arnt part of the Issue. It is an internal one.

But as the decades pass, more support our cause. Because in the end, if Canada does not change, we shall win.

First of all, the past three Victoria Day weekends (previous to this year) I've been in Quebec and never have I heard the day be called Patriot's Day. Everyone in Montreal and Quebec City called it "Fête de la Reine".

You would have separated earlier, but you didn't have the support. Remember 1980 and 1995! Sure you could start shooting, but whom would you shoot? Other Quebecois who were for federalism?

You keep saying this has been a dream for 300 years and what not, so should this dream and the achievement of this dream resonant more in the older generation rather the other way around? Why would they, who have lived longer through more of the struggles, have less affinity than the younger Quebecois who have had it easy in comparison to an independent Quebec? Maybe in their age and wisdom they see that pitfalls of the endeavour.

So is the plan to wait till the older generation dies out and then separate?

As for this peaceful thing, I would think that families of Pierre Laporte and James Cross would have a different opinion.

As for not caring about my opinion; that is fine. But so long as Quebec is a part of Canada, the issues of it are my business and every other Canadian citizen's.

 

[DasFX]

Re: RE: Calling all Separatists!

If there will be a referendum, I'll vote yes, because I'm proud to be a Québécois and I support what my ancestor did in the past... And I don't really stand English-Canadian, who always bash us... They really don't have something more interesting in their life to do..

(Sorry my English...)

Your ancestors were a major part of the creation of this country. Look at the fathers of confederation; lots were French Canadian. Look at how many Prime Minister's are from Quebec. What about those French ancestors, why do you not honour them and their dream?

As for this notion that English Canadians always bash Quebec, who said this, how many English Canadians? You cast judgment on all Anglos based on what? Is that what the PQ and BQ told you; that English Canadians are against Quebec and the French. Wouldn't that be convenient?

 

[I think not]

DasFX, you approach this from an emotional point of view (I can't blame you for that), it doesn't seem however some from Quebec share the same emotion. They have emotions of separatism.

Just keep in mind those with negative feelings towards federalism are always heard more than those who are in favor of it.

I sincerely doubt Quebec would ever end up separating. From what I have read, they wish to retain certain rights and privileges that (Anglo) Canadians have after separation. I think many of them are ill-informed of the consequences of separatism. I don't pretend to fully know whats going on in their minds, but I don't see why and how their culture has ever been threatened from the rest of Canada.

 

[DasFX]

DasFX, you approach this from an emotional point of view (I can't blame you for that), it doesn't seem however some from Quebec share the same emotion. They have emotions of separatism.

That's the thing; I think the idea of separatism is based only on emotion and not logic. I'm a scientist; I'm not looking at this emotionally. Sure I want Quebec to remain within Canada, but should they choose to go, I will not harbour any resentment or ill will. I'm just looking at fact, logic and truth.

I think the BQ and PQ spin the idea that is most amicable to the people, despite the fact that many of the outcomes of separation are out of their control. Some of the luxuries that they say Quebec will have after separation cannot be guaranteed and is not in their control.

Just look at the long-winded questions they've asked.

1980

"The Government of Quebec has made public its proposal to negotiate a new agreement with the rest of Canada, based on the equality of nations; this agreement would enable Quebec to acquire the exclusive power to make its laws, levy its taxes and establish relations abroad — in other words, sovereignty — and at the same time to maintain with Canada an economic association including a common currency; any change in political status resulting from these negotiations will be effected with approval by the people through another referendum; on these terms, do you give the Government of Quebec the mandate to negotiate the proposed agreement between Quebec and Canada?"

1995

"Do you agree that Quebec should become sovereign after having made a formal offer to Canada for a new economic and political partnership within the scope of the bill respecting the future of Quebec and of the agreement signed on June 12, 1995?"

What is this formal offer thing about? It says nothing of the outcome of this proposal. What wasn't the question, "Do you agree that Quebec should become a sovereign nation, completely separate from Canada?"

To me this is a clear and truthful question. If this question were ever put on the ballot, the separatist would surely lose. The previous questions mislead people into thinking that there would still be some union or link with Canada, which wouldn't necessarily be the case.

Really, why doesn't the federal government hold a referendum on sovereignty? That way they can provide a clear question.

 

[I think not]

I don't mean to imply what your feelings are DasFX. But your sig says an awful lot also. I'm sure a chunk of Canadians leaving will create "some" feelings of anger and sadness.

Its' like Texas breaking out of the states, oh nevermind, bad example, they can go

Seriously, if the provincial government doesn't make an effort to inform its population the consequences of separitism maybe its time for the federal government to take action?

 

[DasFX]

Just look at the difference the question can make:

This is old data, but I think the trend is still valid.

12.21.99 SOM

Sovereignty-partnership
49,4% Oui 50,6% Non

Quebec becoming an "independent country"
38,5% Oui 61,5% Non

12.16.99 IPSOS-REID

Would you vote Yes or No to Quebec sovereignty, accompanied by an offer of a partnership
with the rest of Canada
42% Oui 52% Non

Would you vote Yes or No on Quebec becoming an independent country, separate from Canada?
28% Oui 66% Non

Even the latest Leger poll (May 2005) shows that Sovereignty-Association is at 54% support, while only 46% would support complete independence.

The PQ and BQ should stop trying to sell something they don't have and cannot guarantee.

 

[DasFX]

Seriously, if the provincial government doesn't make an effort to inform its population the consequences of separitism maybe its time for the federal government to take action?

The PQ will never give the whole story, cause it would mitigate their winning conditions. Any info the federal government tries to give will be seen as some insidious federalist ploy to prevent les Quebecois from fulfilling their destiny! Quebecers should demand more info and unbiased info; it is in their best interest.