Calling all Separatists!

[DasFX]

This kind of threat, espacially coming from the ROC is very disturbing. They claim canadian unity everywhere FOR YEARS, but are willing turn the other way around, agaisnt those who doesn't want it, in a matter of hours (a referendum).

The ROC is complaning we threat them with separation, but they threat us back with things like "you won't have our support if you decide separation!". It's all perverse and looks more like dictatorship than real cooperation.

So Quebecers are banking on Canada turning around and supporting an independent Quebec? Do you really expect this?

I like Quebec, enjoy the people and culture, but should Quebec separate I will feel betrayed, cheated and angry.

Despite your rosey predictions, the separation of Quebec will have negative impacts on the rest of my country, possibly destroying it all together.

If you have this image of a peaceful world and folks helping each other and supporting each other, then why are you separating, should we all be able to live together in one country?

 

[cub1c]

If you have this image of a peaceful world and folks helping each other and supporting each other, then why are you separating, should we all be able to live together in one country?

So you're image and solution for a peaceful and united world is to have only one country for the whole planet earth? Looks like the US way of peace.

I like Quebec, enjoy the people and culture, but should Quebec separate I will feel betrayed, cheated and angry.

So it will make you feel betrayed and cheated and blablabla only if we separate? Only the threat and possibility of it is not enough for you?

I mean you should already feel betrayed and cheated if it's true. If it was really the case, Canada should have kicked Quebec out a long time ago. No, instead they are trying to force, by every mean, Quebecers to feel united with Canada. Not to say that the fight is also kind of unbalanced, having roughly 13% of Quebec separatists in Canada agaisnt 87% of federalists.

The big question is what is unity? Something you have to do everything to preserve it, or is it something you feel naturally?

Peace has to come through the recognition of differences first. Having a country is only the first step, and we already lost 10 years.

 

[DasFX]

Hey, have your country. If the desire of the majority of Quebecois is to separate the own sovereign nation then so be it, but do not expect the rest of Canada to throw a party and set off fireworks on your independence day.

Quebec has not been forced to do anything. You were not forced to sign in 1982 and you didn’t'. You twice had the choice to separate but chose not to. Canada has been very supportive of this endeavour, do you think most other countries would allow a separatist party to sit in the national parliament or let a province be run by a separatist party? No!

If Quebec had been a part of the US, how far do you think the separatist would have gotten?

If you guys want to separate, then separate. All I ask is that the question be clear and that all the possible consequences be presented to the electorate prior to the vote.

 

[cub1c]

All I ask is that the question be clear and that all the possible consequences be presented to the electorate prior to the vote.

This is really utopian. Like if federalists are willing to recognized the benefits of the separation for Quebecers, and the same goes for separatists.

It's really not going to happen this way. Federalists will try to bring up fear, and separatists, hope.

I don't see how a anwser can be clearer than Yes or No. We have elections with PLENTY of choices, thus we recognize the outcome legitimate.

Why are we asking a referendum to be cleaner about outcome of choices than an elections?

 

[DasFX]

I agree that each side will use whatever information to serve their own purpose. I'm not suggesting we deny Quebec's right to separate, but provide the details of how you plan to do it.

Since this independence won't be a UDI, the way it is done and what it entails has to be negotiated with Canada.

I'm not even sure what type of separation the PQ is proposing? It seems to change all the time. Are you looking for a complete severance from Canada, are you looking for sovereignty with association? Are you looking for more autonomy within the Canadian federation?

To me separation, means being totally separate. I've read on the PQ and BQ site that Quebecois would still be able to hold Canadian passports. How can this be? If Quebec separates, Quebecois would no longer be citizens of Canada, besides this is not matter for Quebec to decide.

I am of the belief that the PQ/BQ is trying to confuse the electorate into voting yes. This is a very clear choice, why such confusion? Does Quebec want to become an independent state separate from Canada? How hard is that to comprehend? In addition Canada and Quebec must define what separate entails. No Canadian passports, no access to work in Canada without a work permit, no right to vote in Canadian elections and so on.

Lay out all the information and then ask the question. Perhaps the PQ/BQ is afraid of the answer an informed electorate would provide.

 

[cub1c]

If Quebec had been a part of the US, how far do you think the separatist would have gotten?

I agree that it doesn't have it's place everywhere, and that's why we love people in North America; I say people because it's not about the governments. I'm pretty sure that if they were granted the right to kill competitions, they would have done it in a heartbeat.

And anyway, it already happened. The ideology that governs Canada right now has already hung plenty of Quebecers because of their dream of independance. Plenty where killed, made prisonner and hung, families destroyed. If you put this part of history in today's context, french canadian who died for their dreams would be numbered to 640 000 people.

For me, to honor what my grand-grand-grand parents did is enough to support independance.

If you take a break and look at history, you would understand that French Quebecers aren't a founding nation of Canada, they are colonized people. And even today, people still feel it.

And if you don't want to look as far as 1837, I can point you the 1970 example, where they emprisonned every PQ supporters for their ideology.

 

[cub1c]

PQ/BQ is afraid of the answer an informed electorate would provide.

Maybe. But they can't predict the future, and they are as honest as not to do it. They didn't say independance will be done without a cost or that we will have to pay more taxes. They didn't say independance will be a fun ride, that we will all be rich as hell and pay no taxes. I think quebecers are realistic.

I little example explains a lot. There was a polls recently, asking Quebecers if they think we should lower taxes even if it means cutting through social programs. I don't remember the exact numbers, but it was something like 75% saying we should'nt lower taxes if it means cutting (like the PLQ was doing). My opinion is that it probably goes way lower for the ROC! Most of you're politicians gets elected with promises of lowering taxes. And you know what? People elected PLQ in Québec because they promised a taxe rebate. 2 years after, when they were close to realize their promess, they saw this shift in mentality and decided not to lower taxes. Not only their promess was impossible at that time, but people that elected them are now asking not to lower taxes!! 8O

PQ never promised a taxe lowering because they knew it wasn't realistic. They lost because they were honest.

Back to separation, they don't feel like making promises over such an important issue, and I'm not waiting for any! It's all about speculation!

But there is one thing sure though, that whatever happens, we will be able to make our decisions. And it's a lot.

And by the way, the year 1 budget of an independant Québec will be released soon. I'm eager to see it, like you.

Hey, have your country.

Thanks, but it's not the opinion of the government, nor federalists.

 

[cub1c]

RE: Calling all Separatis

And you know what's worst in the whole taxe lowering debate here, is that people got the facts and number in their face.

They now know that lowering 1G$ in taxes would represent having 2$ more per month per capita.

How is 2$ more per month can change people habits?
Isn't 1G$ could be spend more wisely in social services? I think so.

Federalists are loosing a big part of their arguments for the future. It is already becoming a non-issue.

 

[Dexter Sinister]

Doesn't it clearly demonstrate that even if Québec is not ok with something, it doens't make much difference?

It demonstrates that it's futile to hope for anything from people who have no wish to offer anything. 111 delegates from Quebec accepted it, 72 did not. Clear majority in favour, and polls among Quebecers after the fact indicated about 60% support as well. The Quebec government negotiated in bad faith and had no intention of accepting any federal reform that didn't promote sovereignty-association on its terms.

You almost made me cry on that one. Poor victims.

So sorry, it slipped my mind for a moment that Quebec is the innocent victim in all of this, robbed and bludgeoned by confederation for 138 years, and its leaders have done nothing but tell the simple truth and ask simple straightforward questions of their voters.

You wanna talk about what a mendacious demagogue Lucien Bouchard was?

Have your referendum, ask a simple straightforward question, tell the voters the truth about what sovereignty really means, stop assuming you'll be able to get a special relationship with Canada, you can't possibly predict that, and see what happens to you. Odds are you won't like it. In most countries in the world for most of history, people like you would have been prosecuted for treason. You people don't know a good thing when you see it.

 

[cub1c]

In most countries in the world for most of history, people like you would have been prosecuted for treason.

Like I said, English Canada has already did it.

You are asking politician to tell the truth??
Are you on the same planet as me?

 

[cub1c]

stop assuming you'll be able to get a special relationship with Canada, you can't possibly predict that,

I can't predict it, but in why it would be worse than Canada - US relations? Canada - China relation? Canada - Mexico?
Why would it be worst? Because some fools will be so mad at us that they will want to make us pay for it? It's kind of stupid to say things like that when you are trying to sell us unity.

 

[Dexter Sinister]

In most countries in the world for most of history, people like you would have been prosecuted for treason.

Like I said, English Canada has already did it.

Really? I must have missed that. Who was prosecuted, and when?

 

[Dexter Sinister]

You are asking politician to tell the truth??
Are you on the same planet as me?

On something as important as this, yes I do expect politicians to tell the truth, and I'll hold them accountable when they don't. Are you conceding, then, that you expect the leaders of the separatist movement to lie to you, to deceive you, about what sovereignty really means, what their agenda actually is, what the history is? And that you're okay with that? In that case, how could you possibly know what a Yes or No vote actually means?

Maybe I'm not on the same planet as you.

 

[s_lone]

Canada without Quebec would be split in two. A totally independant state splitting the country in half...
Wouln't it be in the best interest of the ROC to have a special relationship with an independant Quebec?

 

[no1important]

RE: Calling all Separatis

Canada without Quebec would be split in two. A totally independant state splitting the country in half...
Wouln't it be in the best interest of the ROC to have a special relationship with an independant Quebec

a relationship maybe , but not a special one. They would be treated like any other country.

A lot of seperatists don't understand that though. They think they can keep our money, have an "association" instead of complete seperation.

They never asked a simple question (Do you want to leave Canada, and form our own seperate country) that requires a simple yes or no answer. It was a twisted leading question.

They think Quebec will be some sort of Utopia if they leave Canada.

I am at the point where I don't give a rats ass what Quebec does anymore. Leave or stay, make up your mind as there will be no inbetween.

Maybe the reason they are so upset with Gomery, is the fact that "cat is out of the bag" and people know for sure, about what has been suspected for many years, is that Quebec always recieved more money and recieved special treatment all these years from the Feds and they are embarrassed about being "found out" being caught? So now they are mad and threatning to leave.

Talking to people and listening to talk radio, that seems to be what some people are thinking out here. Basically the "gig is up" and PQ does not like it.

 

[Numure]

Québec always wanted to make THEIR choices and has never impose them to other provinces.

Nonsense. You don't think separatism is imposing something on the rest of us? Or on the aboriginal people within Québec? How about you review the history of the constitutional negotiations starting from about 1968 onwards, and see how obstructionist various of your premiers were, starting with things like the demand for a veto over constitutional changes that was offered by Trudeau repeatedly and then turned down by both Lévesque and Bourassa. You were offered something you'd asked for and turned it down, because if you'd got it, then there'd have been a deal and you couldn't go on using the threat of separatism to try to leverage more out the rest of Canada. I refer you to page 65 of a little book called Pierre Trudeau Speaks Out on Meech Lake, and an older and larger book called The Dangerous Delusion, by Douglas Fullerton, as a starting point.

You are wrong. We HAD a veto. But it was removed by Trudeau and his reforms.

 

[DasFX]

Like I said, English Canada has already did it.

I'll admit that the Quebecois French were treated badly in the past, but this is the present. Name a group of people who weren't treated badly through history.

What is the sense of bringing up the deeds of decades past? Blacks, Women, Aboriginals, Japanese, Jews, Italians, Irish, visible minorities and gay and homosexuals have all had wrongs committed against them in Quebec. Quebecers have been victims, but they have been perpetrators too.

 

[DasFX]

Re: RE: Calling all Separatists!

Canada without Quebec would be split in two. A totally independant state splitting the country in half...
Wouln't it be in the best interest of the ROC to have a special relationship with an independant Quebec?

Maybe so, but to promote sovereignty on the assumption that this will in fact occur is misleading to the Quebec people.

 

[Vanni Fucci]

It's funny how people that don't even live in Québec know what's good for Quebecers.

I give as much of a shit as to what's best for Quebecers, as they give a shit about what's best for Manitoba...

...I've read through the posts, in this thread and other separtists threads, and there's one point that I feel has been intentionally ignored by the separtist camp...

...and that is that there are 3 military bases in Quebec right now...with expensive equipment and personnel that the federal government would probably not want to write off...

...I predict that should the separtists get their way, those bases would be immediately locked down, no one allowed in or out...prior to the referendum, I would hope that preparations would have been made to abandon those posts, and all things would be made ready to bug out...

...because I know for a fact that there are people with separtist ideals within the military, I would expect that all personell at those bases would be brought before the base commander to state their allegiance. Any that maintained their dream of sovereignty would be immediately charged with treason and jailed...

Communities that relied upon those bases for their economic sustenance would feel the crunch even worse than the rest of Quebec would...

My question is this: Do the separtists have a plan to reconcile the government for areas of their province that will always be property of the federal government?

 

[DasFX]

But there is one thing sure though, that whatever happens, we will be able to make our decisions. And it's a lot.

What happens if after voting yes, the circumstances of Quebec separation no longer seems appealing, will there be a final referendum to finalize separation?

I mean the questions in 1995, was merely about being given a mandate to begin negotiations, would Quebecers get a final say once the details are revealed?