Blame Canada

missile

House Member
Dec 1, 2004
4,846
17
38
Saint John N.B.
Another drawback to this is :perhaps some of our minorities might be getting preferential treatment ,as in lower scores to get into university..the old repressed,held back arguments.
 

Colpy

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 5, 2005
21,887
848
113
70
Saint John, N.B.
missile said:
Another drawback to this is :perhaps some of our minorities might be getting preferential treatment ,as in lower scores to get into university..the old repressed,held back arguments.

Yeah, this has got to be the most dumbass idea anyone ever came up with.

This should be a meritocracy. Anything else defeats the whole purpose.

I dfon't give a damn where you came from, or whether you are black, white, brown, yellow, or green with magenta polka-dots, you don't make the grades, you don't get the moola.
 

MMMike

Council Member
Mar 21, 2005
1,410
1
38
Toronto
Reverend Blair said:
There is more than one kind of learning, MMMikey. Even if they don't complete their studies, they have most likely picked up a few useful tidbits. Besides, I've seen more than a fair share of businessmen, lawyers, and other movers and shakers who smoke pot and drink a lot.

I don't have a problem with smoking pot or drinking alot - but if I'm going to pay for it i'm going to enjoy it myself, not underwrite someone else's fun. Of course there is more than one kind of learning. If you are motivated you can get a good education for free at the public library. Hell, you can learn 'a few useful tidbits' travelling all over the world too - should the taxpayer pay for that too?
 

Reverend Blair

Council Member
Apr 3, 2004
1,238
1
38
Winnipeg
The meritocracy only works if they get an equal education early on though. What about Albertans, for instance? They'd be screwed if they had to compete with Saskatchewan on knowledge alone. 8O :p :lol:
 

MMMike

Council Member
Mar 21, 2005
1,410
1
38
Toronto
Layton seems to support private clinics:

Vancouver — Campaigning in Vancouver's Chinatown Sunday, NDP Leader Jack Layton said private clinics are a “fundamental aspect” of the health-care system founded by former Saskatchewan premier Tommy Douglas and not much can be done about them.

Mr. Layton says he wants to stop tax dollars from boosting the bottom lines of big health-care corporations.

“Our focus is to keep public health-care dollars going to public and non-profit facilities,” Mr. Layton told confused reporters. “What happens with people in the privacy of their own relationship financially, that's up to them.”

When pressed on the issue, he said private clinics have been around from the beginning.

Globe and Mail
 

pastafarian

Electoral Member
Oct 25, 2005
541
0
16
in the belly of the mouse
Our society would be much better off if we concentrated on people just learning instead of people learning to complete tasks by rote.

The powers that be don't want people who can think for themselves, they want good little worker drones who can master sophisticated series of conditioned responses without rocking the boat and questioning authority. Business faculties are the best (but by no means the only) examples of this.
 

MMMike

Council Member
Mar 21, 2005
1,410
1
38
Toronto
Layton softens stand on two-tier medicine
Can't stop growth, NDP leader admits
Parties' differences blurring on private vs. public care
Dec. 5, 2005. 07:59 AM
BRUCE CAMPION-SMITH
IN VANCOUVER


New Democratic Party Leader Jack Layton, who has portrayed himself as the lone champion of public health care in the current election, now admits he can't stop the growth of two-tier medicare in Canada and says he wouldn't shut down private clinics.

The admission takes the wind out of a key issue for the NDP in the campaign and further muddies the distinctions among all the political parties in the debate over private versus public health care.

In a speech to supporters in Vancouver yesterday, Layton vowed that only the NDP would stop the "American-style" privatization of the health system.

But later his position blurred when he said his party would not act to close private clinics already in operation.

Toronto Star

What is this all about?? All that talk about 'halting the spread of private health care'? What is Laytons position on this?
 

Reverend Blair

Council Member
Apr 3, 2004
1,238
1
38
Winnipeg
What is this all about?? All that talk about 'halting the spread of private health care'? What is Laytons position on this?

It's about media spin, MMMikey. Private clinics under a single payer system have always been a reality under the Canadian system. Layton wouldn't change that. The press has been spinning the opposite for a very long time and saying things that aren't accurate. Layton just tried to explain reality to them.

He would stop things like clinics that people have to join like a private club. He would keep private insurers out. He would keep hospitals and other large facilities within the public system.
 

pastafarian

Electoral Member
Oct 25, 2005
541
0
16
in the belly of the mouse
He would keep private insurers out.

This is the essential issue for saving our single-payer system, not restricting private healthcare delivery. If private service providers don't feel that they make enough under the fee strcutre established by the public system, then they are free to set up shop further South. Efiicient providers will be able to prosper. A centralized service cost programme should also make it easy to adjust remuneration for doctors so that, if doctors are leaving because they're not making enough, we can address this issue in a transparent fashion.
 

Reverend Blair

Council Member
Apr 3, 2004
1,238
1
38
Winnipeg
If private service providers don't feel that they make enough under the fee strcutre established by the public system, then they are free to set up shop further South.

It's funny...I don't know much about my doctors, but I do know that my family doctor drives a BMW and my hematologist drives a huge Mercedes. I'm guessing that both of them make a decent income.
 

TenPenny

Hall of Fame Member
Jun 9, 2004
17,467
139
63
Location, Location
Reverend Blair said:
If private service providers don't feel that they make enough under the fee strcutre established by the public system, then they are free to set up shop further South.

It's funny...I don't know much about my doctors, but I do know that my family doctor drives a BMW and my hematologist drives a huge Mercedes. I'm guessing that both of them make a decent income.

I'm so happy for you. My family doctor drives a Corolla. And the one before that drove a 7 year old Subaru. Yours must be a much better doctor. Our local hematologist drives a minivan. And the allergy specialist down the street drives a Nissan Quest. And the local cardiac surgeon has an F250 truck. The local anesthesiologist has a Honda Pilot. And the other GP up the street just bought a 4 yr old Ford Expedition. But the stock broker on the next block has a BMW M5. And the guy who owns the hardware store has a Lincoln Navigator. And the insurance guy has a Buick.

I'm sure you have a point somewhere, but I can't see it. Remember that a lot of people like to spend more than they earn, and you can't judge a person by the cars they drive - they most likely don't own them.
 

Reverend Blair

Council Member
Apr 3, 2004
1,238
1
38
Winnipeg
My point was, and remains, that doctors are well-paid in Canada. I don't care if they have loans or leases, the reality is that they have loans or leases on pricier than average automobiles. They don't live in slums, as a rule, or even working class neighbourhoods.

I haven't heard of a lot of doctors going broke because their practices just couldn't produce a profit, Ten Penny. Have you?
 

TenPenny

Hall of Fame Member
Jun 9, 2004
17,467
139
63
Location, Location
I know one who went to the US because he was so far behind in income tax, the only other option was to declare personal bankruptcy.

I'm not saying they're poor, but I know one helluva lot of people who make one helluva lot more money than the typical doctors do.
 

TenPenny

Hall of Fame Member
Jun 9, 2004
17,467
139
63
Location, Location
And, just in case you're wondering, here's some interesting facts from Statistics Canada:

Doctors working harder, earning less
CMAJ 2000;162:860

Census data from Statistics Canada indicate that average physician net earnings before income taxes fell between the 1981 and 1996 censuses.
The study of census data, conducted by the Income Statistics Division of Statistics Canada, reveals that the average net earnings of physicians decreased from $107 500 in 1980 (adjusted to 1995 dollars) to $105 200 in 1995. Interestingly, earnings fell for all age groups among physicians under age 55 but increased for those who were 55 or older. For example, physicians in the 60-64 age group saw a 9% increase in average earnings. Given that a majority of physicians are paid on a fee-for-service basis, this may imply that older physicians were working harder and were providing more services in 1995 than in 1980.

The study also compared the average net earnings of male and female physicians. In 1995 the average male physician had net earnings of $117 200, while the average female physician earned $76 000, or 64.8% of what her male colleagues earned. After standardizing for age and full-time/part-time practice, female physicians earned 73.3% as much as males.

Specialists had average net earnings of $116 500 in 1995, compared with $98 700 for general practitioners and family physicians. Male specialists earned, on average, 20% more than male GP/FPs, while the average earnings of female specialists exceeded those of their primary care colleagues by only 7%. — Lynda Buske, Chief, Physician Resources Information Planning, CMA.
 

Roy

Electoral Member
Nov 23, 2005
218
0
16
Alberta
doctors do make quite a bit of money, I know a family friend who works as a heart surgeon or specialist and he makes around 900,000 a year. Can you say Ferrari 8)
 

Reverend Blair

Council Member
Apr 3, 2004
1,238
1
38
Winnipeg
I'm not seeing a lot of poor doctors in your numbers, Ten Penny. $76,000 is lowest number...in 1995 dollars.

Are there higher-paying jobs? Yeah...you should see my vet bills. I don't know what he drives, but I'm pretty sure I've paid for a couple of Porsches over the years.

Doctors are paid pretty well though. If they want to take their taxpayer-subsidised educations and move to the US so they can make more, I suggest they be charged for the difference between what they paid for their educations and what a foreign student would have paid.
 

tracy

House Member
Nov 10, 2005
3,500
48
48
California
Doctors wages vary so much depending on location, hours of work and specialty. Their gross earnings are often very different than their net earnings, but I have never known a doc in Canada who quit because they weren't making enough money. I do know of several docs in the US who have closed all or part of their practice for that reason though (thanks to high malpractice insurance costs).

Personally I wouldn't mind a net salary of over 100K a year. I think that's reasonable for a GP. I don't know how much other people feel they should take home, but I don't think around 9K a month is bad at all. If they wanted to be rich, they could have picked a more lucrative specialty.

I wonder what the figures would be like now though. Those figures from 1995 are pretty out of date. I know docs in BC negotiated a pretty good contract about 3 years ago.
 

MMMike

Council Member
Mar 21, 2005
1,410
1
38
Toronto
Oh you lefties... it's all about money for you guys isn't it? :wink: By the way, a personal situation just showed me how another form of two-tier medicine is alive and well in Canada. I mentioned earlier how my mother was on an 8-month waiting list to see a neurologist despite a large tumour behind her eye. Well... a relative (albeit distant) happens to be a neurosurgeon. One note to him and she was in the office two days later for a consultation, then offered date for surgery a few weeks later. Its all who you know. Then of course we have the separate health care system for MP's, and for Workers Comp etc etc...