Blame Canada

[tracy]

Re: RE: Blame Canada

Obviously, I'm a little biased, but I don't see why people get mad when healthcare workers choose to leave Canada. I paid for my education same as someone who got a Bachelor of Arts degree and don't feel I should be tied to the country anymore than they should. I went to school in BC and have worked in BC and Ontario. I'd work in Ontario again, but I wouldn't go back to BC until the current government and conditions change. I have a hard time listening to people bitch about docs and nurses leaving when it's clear that they've never had to work in the conditions that we do every day. I'm not a martyr. I'll work where I am respected and valued and right now that's California, not BC.

But I'm sure you can appreciate that people get a little pissed when we pay out of taxpayers money 75% the cost of a doctors education, and the doctor leaves the country.

I can only assume that there would be a huge advantage to that doctor who trains in Canada and moves to the US, as they wouldn't be carrying near the debt load that a US trained doctor carries?

No, not really. Do you get mad when a lit major moves to the US? I don't see how a healthcare worker is any different other than the fact that you need them now. A free society doesn't tie certain workers to certain areas and not others. When I became a nurse, it wasn't like I joined the army and gave up the right to decide where I wanted to live.

No one was whining about nurses leaving Canada in the early 90s when there were NO jobs for them, so I don't see why nurses or doctors should feel such a strong obligation to stay in Canada now. Should I stay in BC and tolerate anything just because I went to university there? I am not so naive to think that the people of the province value or respect me as a nurse, so I don't see why I should feel tied to that one province. I stayed long enough and although I miss BC, I don't miss working there at all. The final straw was a woman accusing me of being on strike during the last contract negotiations as I was filling up my gas tank after an overtime shift (How dare I go on strike and abandon my patients? Umm... notice the scrubs I'm wearing? The dark circles under my eyes at 8am? Does it look like I'm on strike?). I don't owe that woman anything just because she pays the same taxes I do.

If you want to keep healthcare workers in Canada, it's not that hard to do. I don't expect doctors or nurses to stay where they are unhappy because they benefitted from the same university system ALL Canadians are entitled to (and that our tax dollars pay for as well). Their debt loads are nothing to sneer at either. Being in school for upwards of 7 years isn't cheap in either country. If they choose to take certain government grants, they can be required to stay. Otherwise they can go anywhere they want and people whining about them doing so does nothing to fix the problem.

 

[tracy]

Re: RE: Blame Canada

Obviously, I'm a little biased, but I don't see why people get mad when healthcare workers choose to leave Canada. I paid for my education same as someone who got a Bachelor of Arts degree and don't feel I should be tied to the country anymore than they should. I went to school in BC and have worked in BC and Ontario. I'd work in Ontario again, but I wouldn't go back to BC until the current government and conditions change. I have a hard time listening to people bitch about docs and nurses leaving when it's clear that they've never had to work in the conditions that we do every day. I'm not a martyr. I'll work where I am respected and valued and right now that's California, not BC.

But I'm sure you can appreciate that people get a little pissed when we pay out of taxpayers money 75% the cost of a doctors education, and the doctor leaves the country.

I can only assume that there would be a huge advantage to that doctor who trains in Canada and moves to the US, as they wouldn't be carrying near the debt load that a US trained doctor carries?

exactly, it's subsidized

Like all university education is. If you think it's such a good deal, I invite you to apply for medical school or nursing school, then stay in Canada for your whole career. How many years do you think they should have to stay in Canada to payback the taxpayers anyways? The amount of taxes a doc pays would have to make up for cheaper tuition pretty fast.

 

[albertzz]

Re: RE: Blame Canada

"Like all university education is."
yeah? so? was I making an exception for doctors?
" If you think it's such a good deal, I invite you to apply for medical school or nursing school, then stay in Canada for your whole career."
the fact that I am not endowed with the abilities to do so doesn't mean I wouldn't if I were capable of doing so.
" How many years do you think they should have to stay in Canada to payback the taxpayers anyways?"
Well this is a simple matter of math.
" The amount of taxes a doc pays would have to make up for cheaper tuition pretty fast."
Maybe, but the fact that our tax system is progressive is a different issue.

All I'm saying is that they're not exactly poverty-stricken so they should stop their whining.

 

[albertzz]

Re: RE: Blame Canada

"Like all university education is."
yeah? so? was I making an exception for doctors?
" If you think it's such a good deal, I invite you to apply for medical school or nursing school, then stay in Canada for your whole career."
the fact that I am not endowed with the abilities to do so doesn't mean I wouldn't if I were capable of doing so.
" How many years do you think they should have to stay in Canada to payback the taxpayers anyways?"
Well this is a simple matter of math.
" The amount of taxes a doc pays would have to make up for cheaper tuition pretty fast."
Maybe, but the fact that our tax system is progressive is a different issue.

All I'm saying is that they're not exactly poverty-stricken so they should stop their whining.

 

[tracy]

Re: RE: Blame Canada

"Like all university education is."
yeah? so? was I making an exception for doctors?
" If you think it's such a good deal, I invite you to apply for medical school or nursing school, then stay in Canada for your whole career."
the fact that I am not endowed with the abilities to do so doesn't mean I wouldn't if I were capable of doing so.
" How many years do you think they should have to stay in Canada to payback the taxpayers anyways?"
Well this is a simple matter of math.
" The amount of taxes a doc pays would have to make up for cheaper tuition pretty fast."
Maybe, but the fact that our tax system is progressive is a different issue.

All I'm saying is that they're not exactly poverty-stricken so they should stop their whining.

Believe me, I don't think docs should whine about their pay either. I just don't think they should be tied to Canada or a certain province anymore than any other university graduate. As long as people don't complain about history majors moving, I think it's unfair to complain about docs who choose to do so. In the end, they're individuals just like the rest of us and they have every right to do what makes them feel fulfilled in their careers.

 

[TenPenny]

Re: RE: Blame Canada

You are abusive and mistaken:

I entered a few numbers:
https://www.payscale.com/smartreport.asp

low compared to the US - yes. otherwise - hmmm.

Dear Sir: I believe your acquaintance with the facts in this matter is wholly long distance. Perhaps, in future, you should do some significant research into the manner and scale of remuneration of the professions involved. This would eliminate the possibility of you being shown to be espousing an opinion that is laughably ignorant of reality.

 

[Jay]

No, not really. Do you get mad when a lit major moves to the US? I don't see how a healthcare worker is any different other than the fact that you need them now. A free society doesn't tie certain workers to certain areas and not others. When I became a nurse, it wasn't like I joined the army and gave up the right to decide where I wanted to live.

No one was whining about nurses leaving Canada in the early 90s when there were NO jobs for them, so I don't see why nurses or doctors should feel such a strong obligation to stay in Canada now. Should I stay in BC and tolerate anything just because I went to university there? I am not so naive to think that the people of the province value or respect me as a nurse, so I don't see why I should feel tied to that one province. I stayed long enough and although I miss BC, I don't miss working there at all. The final straw was a woman accusing me of being on strike during the last contract negotiations as I was filling up my gas tank after an overtime shift (How dare I go on strike and abandon my patients? Umm... notice the scrubs I'm wearing? The dark circles under my eyes at 8am? Does it look like I'm on strike?). I don't owe that woman anything just because she pays the same taxes I do.

If you want to keep healthcare workers in Canada, it's not that hard to do. I don't expect doctors or nurses to stay where they are unhappy because they benefitted from the same university system ALL Canadians are entitled to (and that our tax dollars pay for as well). Their debt loads are nothing to sneer at either. Being in school for upwards of 7 years isn't cheap in either country. If they choose to take certain government grants, they can be required to stay. Otherwise they can go anywhere they want and people whining about them doing so does nothing to fix the problem.

I understand where you are coming from, I'm not mad about the situation, I just think that the current funding of education is wrong.

Take this example...teachers in Ontario after 10 years of service make over 75k a year. Times that by 20 years (with the average pensioner having put in 30 or so years) plus wages paid during the 10 years to get to the maximum pay schedule....I don't think it is unreasonable for them to foot their own education fees, even if they add up to 100K.

I think that solves the problem some people have.

 

[albertzz]

Ok, but the normal thing to do would be to post evidence with your refutation, otherwise it's just an assertion.

EDIT: I'm referring to TenPenny, not to you

 

[albertzz]

No! People shouldn't foot their own education fees b/c then it will be undersupplied b/c education has positive externalities. (Arguably they should pay it off if they want to leave or stay until they have effectively paid it off)

 

[tracy]

Re: RE: Blame Canada

No, not really. Do you get mad when a lit major moves to the US? I don't see how a healthcare worker is any different other than the fact that you need them now. A free society doesn't tie certain workers to certain areas and not others. When I became a nurse, it wasn't like I joined the army and gave up the right to decide where I wanted to live.

No one was whining about nurses leaving Canada in the early 90s when there were NO jobs for them, so I don't see why nurses or doctors should feel such a strong obligation to stay in Canada now. Should I stay in BC and tolerate anything just because I went to university there? I am not so naive to think that the people of the province value or respect me as a nurse, so I don't see why I should feel tied to that one province. I stayed long enough and although I miss BC, I don't miss working there at all. The final straw was a woman accusing me of being on strike during the last contract negotiations as I was filling up my gas tank after an overtime shift (How dare I go on strike and abandon my patients? Umm... notice the scrubs I'm wearing? The dark circles under my eyes at 8am? Does it look like I'm on strike?). I don't owe that woman anything just because she pays the same taxes I do.

If you want to keep healthcare workers in Canada, it's not that hard to do. I don't expect doctors or nurses to stay where they are unhappy because they benefitted from the same university system ALL Canadians are entitled to (and that our tax dollars pay for as well). Their debt loads are nothing to sneer at either. Being in school for upwards of 7 years isn't cheap in either country. If they choose to take certain government grants, they can be required to stay. Otherwise they can go anywhere they want and people whining about them doing so does nothing to fix the problem.

I understand where you are coming from, I'm not mad about the situation, I just think that the current funding of education is wrong.

Take this example...teachers in Ontario after 10 years of service make over 75k a year. Times that by 20 years (with the average pensioner having put in 30 or so years) plus wages paid during the 10 years to get to the maximum pay schedule....I don't think it is unreasonable for them to foot their own education fees, even if they add up to 100K.

I think that solves the problem some people have.

Maybe, but I think that argument could apply to everything taxes pay for. I personally will never use a lot of the services my taxes pay for, but society as a whole benefits from having many of those services so I just suck it up.

BTW, even in Canada, docs' student loans could easily exceed that amount. Many of my friends finished nursing school with upwards of 40K in loans for their 4 year degree. And you may not realize it, but patients do benefit from docs WHILE they are in school. At night especially, experienced residents and fellows handle a lot of patient care issues with minimal supervision from attending MDs. They aren't completely finished their medical training, so they aren't making the big bucks, but they are still treating patients. It isn't like they just drain the system and then leave. I really don't think the number of docs leaving for the US is that big anyways. I've only met one Canadian trained doc since I came here (as opposed to dozens of nurses).

 

[TenPenny]

Ok, but the normal thing to do would be to post evidence with your refutation, otherwise it's just an assertion.

EDIT: I'm referring to TenPenny, not to you

Okay, fine. according to statistics Canada, the average income for a GP in NB is:
Average Income

*Statistics Canada 2001 Census

$131,565

Pretty good for an average 60 to 80 hour workweek. No stress. Good lifestyle. Yup. I don't know why anyone would want to be, say, a CEO of a major corporation. Nosiree. Not with that kind of money out there just for being a GP.

 

[albertzz]

edit

 

[Jay]

Maybe, but I think that argument could apply to everything taxes pay for. I personally will never use a lot of the services my taxes pay for, but society as a whole benefits from having many of those services so I just suck it up.

It is a matter of policy, that’s is for sure.

BTW, even in Canada, docs' student loans could easily exceed that amount. Many of my friends finished nursing school with upwards of 40K in loans for their 4 year degree.

I can only imagine doctors would carry larger debts; I would also expect them to make larger salaries.

40k seems like a lot of money to carry, but if allows you earn 1.8 million dollars in thirty years, 200K isn't unreasonable. IMO

And you may not realize it, but patients do benefit from docs WHILE they are in school. At night especially, experienced residents and fellows handle a lot of patient care issues with minimal supervision from attending MDs. They aren't completely finished their medical training, so they aren't making the big bucks, but they are still treating patients. It isn't like they just drain the system and then leave. I really don't think the number of docs leaving for the US is that big anyways. I've only met one Canadian trained doc since I came here (as opposed to dozens of nurses).

I understand what you're saying.

 

[peapod]

Alberta...don't bother double posting your messages, they will be edited.

 

[albertzz]

sorry, but please don't call me Alberta, my posts are not especially albertan

 

[peapod]

Sure, whatever, if you need mike and nascar to read your posts than pm them with it, rather than posting it again.

 

[MMMike]

Re: RE: Blame Canada

You seem to be pleading for an economics-based argument. i will try to give you one. Apparently, figures that tell you how much more efficient the Canadian system compared to the American system is are not sufficient for you. Can you people ever compare against anything other than the American system?? Please point out where I said that the US system is the way to go. You still beleive that there's no way a public system could be more efficient even if that's what the facts say. So I will try to EXPLAIN why this is the case.

Usually, private markets are more efficient. Why would the government be more efficient? In cases of natural monopoly or market failure they are. Health INSURANCE is such a case. The government of Canada provides health INSURANCE. Health care provision is provided PRIVATELY - doctors, nurses, hospitals are ALL PRIVATE. INSURANCE is provided publically. Uh, wrong. In Canada the government is both the payer and supplier of health care services. Why? Because it is more efficient. Why? because it has less administrative overhead and because it solves adverse selection problems which cause private markets to fail:

Firstly, adverse selection:
this is from the economist:
ADVERSE SELECTION
"When you do business with people you would be better off avoiding. This is one of two main sorts of MARKET FAILURE often associated with insurance. The other is MORAL HAZARD. Adverse selection can be a problem when there is ASYMMETRIC INFORMATION between the seller of INSURANCE and the buyer; in particular, insurance will often not be profitable when buyers have better information about their risk of claiming than does the seller. Ideally, insurance premiums should be set according to the risk of a randomly selected person in the insured slice of the population (55-year-old male smokers, say). In practice, this means the AVERAGE RISK of that group. When there is adverse selection, people who know they have a higher risk of claiming than the average of the group will buy the insurance, whereas those who have a below-average risk may decide it is too expensive to be worth buying. In this case, premiums set according to the average risk will not be sufficient to cover the claims that eventually arise, because among the people who have bought the policy more will have above-average risk than below-average risk. Putting up the premium will not solve this problem, for as the premium rises the insurance policy will become unattractive to more of the people who know they have a lower risk of claiming. One way to reduce adverse selection is to make the purchase of insurance compulsory, so that those for whom insurance priced for average risk is unattractive are not able to opt out. "

Governments are in the unique situation where they can completely GET RID of adverse selection problems which can cause markets to fail completely.

And secondly, administrative costs. Simply put, we don't pay as much in overhead because we have a single provider. There is no duplication of administrative structure. This also saves a great deal of money. There is also no incentive for improved delivery, or for more efficiency.

This is not an ideological argument. It is an argument from efficiency.

EDIT: Oops, sorry MMMIke, I seem to be confusing you with Nascar James. Regardless, you make similar arguments. The above is primarily addressed to him. With regard to what you have said, what type of system exactly are you advocating when you say that there are superior systems, if you do not mean the US system? Look at the rankings of healthcare systems from the WHO, or the OECD... who's at the top? Not us!The alternatives that work that I can think of are just even more socialist, surely you wouldn't want that? Only North Korea and Cuba have a system more dominated by government. Is that any hint that we're maybe off in left field (literally)?

Basically the argument against healthcare reform can be summed up as follows: ours (Canadas) is better than theirs (US'), and we can't allow any private delivery of services because a NAFTA challenge will bring the US system here. Sorry, not buying. Any system with costs growing much faster than GDP growth is unsustainable and needs to be put out of its misery.

 

[Colpy]

Ok, but the normal thing to do would be to post evidence with your refutation, otherwise it's just an assertion.

EDIT: I'm referring to TenPenny, not to you

Okay, fine. according to statistics Canada, the average income for a GP in NB is:
Average Income

*Statistics Canada 2001 Census

$131,565

Pretty good for an average 60 to 80 hour workweek. No stress. Good lifestyle. Yup. I don't know why anyone would want to be, say, a CEO of a major corporation. Nosiree. Not with that kind of money out there just for being a GP.

Yep. Makes it hard to understand why it is nearly impossible to find a GP here unless you already have one.

 

[albertzz]

Re: RE: Blame Canada

Uh, wrong. In Canada the government is both the payer and supplier of health care services.

Basically the argument against healthcare reform can be summed up as follows: ours (Canadas) is better than theirs (US'), and we can't allow any private delivery of services because a NAFTA challenge will bring the US system here. Sorry, not buying.

Please re-read what I wrote.
1) In Canada we have public insurance and private delivery. That is a fact. You are mistaken. Look it up.
2) The argument against healthcare reform is not that ours is better than the US. It has everything to do with adverse selection. Loook it up.

 

[TenPenny]

That's right; in Canada, the delivery of MOST services is private, ie, done by doctors in their own offices, exaclty the same as the US. In Canada, the doctors bill the gov't; in the US, the doctors bill the patient/HMO/Insurance company.

The difference is in the services delivered in hospitals, where the doctors, for the most part, still bill on a fee-for-service basis to the gov't, but the other staff and expenses are directly covered by the gov't.