Being a man

s_lone

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Feb 16, 2005
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I don't think it does. I think we're looking at something that doesn't have an opposite and trying to fit something into that form. Is Woman the opposite of Man? What about Boy? What about Mouse? Context is the thing. And so, it's relevant to both sexes. Other wise, we do just get down to physical differences.

Also I don't think people are diminished by what they lack. They are defined by what they possess. Wouldn't you agree?

I definately agree that we should first define people by what they possess, not by what they lack.

Where I see a problem is when a lack of 'manliness' is seen as a problem in a man, but a non-issue with a woman. A man is expected to be 'manly', but a woman isn't. Yet, most people seem to agree that the qualities described by the word 'manliness' are universal and transcend gender...

If ''manliness'' is a desirable quality for all human beings, why use a word that refers to the male sex to describe it?

I wouldn't see it as sexist if there was a positive 'womanliness' that both men and women can have but there doesn't seem to be any...
 

karrie

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Jan 6, 2007
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I wouldn't see it as sexist if there was a positive 'womanliness' that both men and women can have but there doesn't seem to be any...

That's not true. Men are expected to nurture in our society. Historically, that was the woman's role... a female 'trait'. Men are also now expected to be sensitive to the moods of people around them and accommodate... also a historically female behavior.
 

Nuggler

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Feb 27, 2006
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I remember one time a female friend of mine told me she was inviting my male roomate over to her place for dinner. When I asked her what she was cooking she immediatley called me a sexist pig. I was stunned. I didn't even think about it, it just seemed common sense that if you are inviting someone over to dinner, then you are making it. Anyway, she was studying Womens Studies at the time so I think it was just getting to her. It did make me think though about the stereotypes we all have of each other, and I am not just talking about gender roles.

I woulda kicked her right in the nuts.:p
 

Tonington

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Oct 27, 2006
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Didn't work for me either, and it's the same URL. OK, plan B


[FONT=&quot]The purpose of this paper is to discuss the social and cultural significance of the construction of masculinity.

[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]The separation between sex and gender is a recent distinction. It is very important to recognize the differences between the biological and social meanings which create this separation. Sex is the biological differences between males and females. This includes the differences in genitalia, and the roles of each in reproduction. Gender, is the societal classification of masculine versus feminine. Thus, gender is a result of cultural and social views, based on society’s views of sex (Nanda and Warms, 2002).

[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]There are four main concepts when dealing with masculinity. In studying the related topics of male identity, manliness, manhood and men’s roles, most reports will fit into these categories. The first is anything that men think or do, is by definition, masculine. Secondly, anything that men think or do in the name of being a man, is masculine. The third is that some men are going to be assumed to be manlier than other men based on existing notions. The fourth and final concept or category is, anything which is womanly, cannot be masculine, and masculinity is anything that women are not (Gutmann, 1997).

[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]Throughout this paper, there will be an emphasis on the achievement of masculine ideals. These ideals are, being a good father, a good athlete, male bonding, becoming a good man and being a “real” man.

[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]Being a good father is central to the idea of masculinity. There have been many studies done on the variety of fathering experiences. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]In Ireland, men are brought up to feel deficient as fathers and awkward around young children (Scheper-Hughes, 1979). In a more recent work by Scheper-Hughes, she wrote of fathers in an urban Brazil shantytown. Fathers as she [/FONT][FONT=&quot]wrote, are the men who provide infants with powdered milk. This milk is affectionately known as “father’s milk” (Scheper-Hughes, 1992). These examples show the differences cross culturally in the different views men have of masculinity and the roles of a father.

[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]Success in competition and sports is a large factor in the evaluation of a man’s masculinity. So much so, that in New Zealand where rugby is the sport, not being able to play the sport is devastating to the men there. Being born with haemophilia is devastating to the father-son relationships there. In many cases, participation in rugby is a family tradition, and breaking that tradition is a point of sore content (Park, 2000). Mothers in New Zealand would indicate that other team sports would suit fine, but among the fathers and sons, there is agreement on the fact that rugby is the only way. The rise of rugby as a symbol of masculinity in New Zealand goes back as far as 1905, with the creation of the national team, called the All Blacks (Sinclair, 1986). The sport of rugby is played with relatively no protective gear. The men playing are fast, big, powerful men. Even men in peak physical shape succumb to injury easily in this sport. Rugby, in New [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Zealand has come to be a symbol of the dominant, hegemonic masculinity there (Park, 2000). It is not so very different in Canadian society either. Men dream of coaching their sons in hockey and playing the sport with them as they grow up. Recently there has been a call from many in the sports community to lower the age at which kids may start body checking. Some say it is so that they will learn how to check properly so as to decrease injuries to the young boys. Others believe that it is nonsense, and will just make the sport more violent. In women’s hockey, checking usually results in a penalty. This could be seen as a way to keep the checking to the big masculine males, not something that a woman should be doing.

[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]Male bonding is a strong enforcer of masculinity. The term male bonding was first used by Lionel Tiger in 1984. He used the term to describe the times that men need away from women, to enforce feelings of camaraderie. Male bonding is an activity which has evolved over thousands of years - with biological roots – for the purpose of creating and maintaining alliances (Tiger, 1984). Male bonding also allows for men to gather and have an outlet to gage their own masculinity.

[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]State institutions can play a role in the development of masculinity. In Bolivia, young men from the rural areas are placed into the military by conscription. The majority of these young men are members of minority groups ( Gill, 1997). Like minorities in other armies in history, they are the infantry who will be in the line of fire, while the dominant group members of their society remain out of harms way. Despite this fact, many young men are eager to serve. Military service becomes a step in which young males can develop their manhood; it symbolizes ones power and instills in them a courage needed to survive life’s frequent challenges (Gill, 1997). On page 529 of Gill’s article, she argues:

[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]"The state, through the institution of the armed forces, conjoins key concepts of masculinity and beliefs about citizenship that are claimed by many of the poor as they simultaneously accommodate to domination and assert their own interests vis-à-vis each other and the dominant society. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]In this way, conscripts are not only men but civilians too, and all notions which are non-masculine are ridiculed and slighted."

[/FONT] [FONT=&quot] Being a good man is vastly different than being good at being a man. Being good at being a man implies an excellence in performances considered masculine, while being a good man can be thought of as merely being born male (Gutmann, 1997). Striving for masculinity isn’t avoiding traits deemed as feminine; rather it is men achieving what only a male can achieve. A man’s identity is not solely based on his anatomy, it is also an accumulation of traits and characteristics which men work on for most of their lives.

[/FONT] [FONT=&quot] In today’s cultures, there are many assumptions and conceptions of what a real man is. On television, they show us commercials of men with large bodies and rippling muscles. There are programs with men who have deep voices and make grunting noises while adding motorcycle engines to their lawn tractors. An almost universal concept, the concept of a “real” man, has led men to believe that the “real” men are daring, heroic, aggressive, proven to be virile and controls women.

[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]Young children growing up observe gender stereotypes from adult culture, then practice, re-invent and reproduce them, incorporating them into their play habits ( Kikvidze, 2003). Kids will grow up thinking that this is what they must become, and it will be reinforced as they grow older and learn more about the social world. The need to test or prove manhood is known as the manhood puzzle (Nanda and Warms, 2002).Manhood is viewed as a precarious position, in which men are always being tested. This leads to the hyper masculine construction of “machismo”. This macho is seen as essential to the role as a male, the role of protector, procreator and provider to one’s family (Nanda and Warms, 2002).

[/FONT] [FONT=&quot] In conclusion, the social constructions of masculinity take different forms, not only from society to society, but also from one institution to another. The way in which man becomes a more masculine man is very important to the individual and to the society. Inside the view of masculine, is everything that is important and in some instances trivial, to the lives of men. It includes the fears of being a good husband, a good father and a good provider for the family. It also includes the will to be seen as a strong individual, competitive and powerful. In short, it is all ones fears and hopes.[/FONT]
 

s_lone

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That's not true. Men are expected to nurture in our society. Historically, that was the woman's role... a female 'trait'. Men are also now expected to be sensitive to the moods of people around them and accommodate... also a historically female behavior.

So if being sensitive is historically feminine, does that mean women are fundamentally more sensitive than men? Or is it just education that 'makes' women that way?
 

Dexter Sinister

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Hmm... being a man... Well, Rudyard Kipling put it this way about a hundred years ago:
If
If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you;
If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you,
But make allowance for their doubting too;
If you can wait and not be tired by waiting,
Or, being lied about, don't deal in lies,
Or, being hated, don't give way to hating,
And yet don't look too good, nor talk too wise;
If you can dream - and not make dreams your master;
If you can think - and not make thoughts your aim;
If you can meet with triumph and disaster
And treat those two imposters just the same;
If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken
Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,
Or watch the things you gave your life to broken,
And stoop and build 'em up with wornout tools;
If you can make one heap of all your winnings
And risk it on one turn of pitch-and-toss,
And lose, and start again at your beginnings
And never breath a word about your loss;
If you can force your heart and nerve and sinew
To serve your turn long after they are gone,
And so hold on when there is nothing in you
Except the Will which says to them: "Hold on";
If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue,
Or walk with kings - nor lose the common touch;
If neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you;
If all men count with you, but none too much;
If you can fill the unforgiving minute
With sixty seconds' worth of distance run -
Yours is the Earth and everything that's in it,
And - which is more - you'll be a Man my son!

Mostly good stuff, though I think "If neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you" then you don't actually have any foes or loving friends. It's a fine idealistic description of the Victorian ethos that informed much of Kipling's works, but I really don't see why the last line couldn't just as easily have been, "And - which is more - you'll be a Woman my daughter." 'Cept it needs a single syllable word at the end that rhymes with run to keep the metre. Kipling seems to me to have produced a description of any well-rounded, self-assured person, male or female, ignoring the gender-specific pronouns he kept using. Most days I'm inclined to think that any definition of what it means to be a man or a woman, or to characterize certain things as manly or womanly, is simply a reflection of current social constructs. Apart from the obvious differences--woman can get pregnant, bear children, and nurse them, men can't, for instance, and most men are physically larger and stronger than most women, though I know women who are bigger and stronger than a lot of men--I think trying to define gender roles is a largely a mug's game. I've no doubt there are reasons rooted in evolutionary biology for the differences between men and women, whatever they are, but our culture and technology largely insulate us from the forces that generated them. We no longer need a band of armed men guarding the women and children from the wolves lurking just beyond the light from the campfire. At least, not here.

But maybe they aren't just social constructs. Whatever real differences there are between men and women are rooted in our evolutionary past and reflect our original hunter-gatherer lifestyle. That's what we evolved for and how we lived for most of our history, and it hasn't been very long in evolutionary terms since most of us abandoned that lifestyle, certainly not long enough to have produced much of a shift in gene frequencies. A heavily pregnant woman, or one with a nursing child on her hip, is relatively helpless in a hunter-gatherer society living in an environment with large predators, which accounts for the powerful and automatic protective instinct any normal man feels towards women and children. I'm no anthropologist so I may be full of nonsense here (wouldn't be the first time :lol:), but it seems fairly clear to me that most of the things that have traditionally been regarded as "manly" are things requiring physical strength and action and the protection and support of women and children, and things traditionally regarded as "womanly" have to do with child care and household management and keeping a man happy. Being the bearers of the next generation, and essentially being removed from the reproductive sweepstakes that natural selection operates on for a year or two at a time, I think has to make a significant difference in the psychology of women, just as being reproductively able all the time has to make a difference for men, but I don't think I know enough to say much more than that. So I'll shut up now.

And I'm starting to ramble anyway.
 
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s_lone

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Tonington,


Thanks for posting your paper. It certainly has lots of fuel for this debate...

I hadn't thought of fatherhood... It certainly is one of the concepts to which the term 'manly' has a positive and totally un-sexist meaning in the sense that only a man can be a father.

You explain well how masculinity varies depending on the cultural context. But what do you think? Should masculinity be valued? Or should it be de-valued in favour of more equality between sexes?
 

karrie

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So if being sensitive is historically feminine, does that mean women are fundamentally more sensitive than men? Or is this is just our education that 'makes' women that way?

From my experience, many of what we've tried to write off as social constructs, have a basis in the hormonal. Women are more sensitive as a result of biological, hormonal, conditioning as far as I can see. We are naturally designed to want (in general) to to become pregnant, to nurse, to nurture and raise children. Thus, yes, we're fundamentally more sensitive, because it's what makes us good at what we evolved for. Men didn't need to be as sensitive. Men needed to be more aggressive, more fearless.
 

Tonington

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You explain well how masculinity varies depending on the cultural context. But what do you think? Should masculinity be valued? Or should it be de-valued in favour of more equality between sexes?

I don't see any reason why we should devalue masculinity or femininity, but perhaps some qualities shouldn't be viewed as the sole dominion of men or women. If masculinity is being a good father, and a good role model, that's great. Emphasize that form of masculinity.
 

s_lone

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From my experience, many of what we've tried to write off as social constructs, have a basis in the hormonal. Women are more sensitive as a result of biological, hormonal, conditioning as far as I can see. We are naturally designed to want (in general) to to become pregnant, to nurse, to nurture and raise children. Thus, yes, we're fundamentally more sensitive, because it's what makes us good at what we evolved for. Men didn't need to be as sensitive. Men needed to be more aggressive, more fearless.

I can only agree that there seems to be some fundamental differences due to biological reasons.
We often hear that men are better at doing one task at a time while women are better in multi-purpose situations. Whether it's true or not, it would seem our brains are wired a bit differently. But one could always argue that education mainly responsible for these differences.
 
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Dexter Sinister

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I don't see any reason why we should devalue masculinity or femininity, but perhaps some qualities shouldn't be viewed as the sole dominion of men or women. If masculinity is being a good father, and a good role model, that's great. Emphasize that form of masculinity.
Uh... I'm having some trouble with that. I don't see that it's any different from femininity meaning being a good mother and a good role model; it seems tautological to me, like saying being a man means being a man. By definition, only a man can be a father, good or bad, and only a woman can be a mother, good or bad, and either can be a role model, good or bad. The notion of being a good role model for your gender to me seems to include a hidden assumption that the roles are necessarily different, and leaves unaddressed the distinguishing question: what does it mean to be a good father or a good mother? Nurturing and support and encouragement and instruction and discipline, for example, are clearly part of both roles. Part of the burden of the OP's question is, really, how do they differ? I don't know the answer to that, and I don't think anyone who's posted here so far is close to an answer yet either.
 

Tonington

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Well, if masculinity is being a good role model for the man's son, that is a good social model for the son. That can apply equally to a father representing what a good man is, perhaps how to treat women and being a guiding principle for his daughter when she becomes involved in relationships with other men. And of course that role is equally applicable to the Mother as a role model.
 

Dexter Sinister

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Yeah, I think we're getting somewhere, though I think we're still mostly at the level of generalizations. Lemme offer some specifics, admittedly anecdotal, but I think they have some force. I've known a lot of seriously messed up people in my life, as no doubt we all have, and probably some of the people reading and posting here were once seriously messed up too. What I've noticed is that in messed up women, both among people I've known and people my children have known--I mean women who fall into drug and alcohol abuse, or promiscuity, or similarly dangerous and self-destructive behaviours--in every case the common factor is an absent or emotionally disengaged father. The converse is not true, not every girl with an absent or distant father gets into trouble, in fact most of them don't, but of those that do, the father's not there in some sense, so perhaps some women are particularly vulnerable to the absence of a strong male role model in their youth. Seems to be a similar pattern in messed up young men, but the paternal behaviour's different. The father's aren't necessarily absent or distant, they're just jerks, and their sons emulate them.

Makes a certain amount of sense to me. As a girl, what's your first relationship with a man? Your father. If that leaves you empty, or wounded, what's your view of men likely to be? You might turn against them entirely, or you might spend years searching for approval from men by doing whatever you think they want, and in every case of it I've ever seen, that seems a sufficient explanation for promiscuity. Girls need their dads, that's what'll initially define men to them. And I note with some satisfaction that the man my daughter's taken up with is a young man very like me at the same age. He even looks like me.

Similarly, as a boy your first relationship with a man is your father, that'll be the first model you'll encounter for how you should behave as an adult male yourself when you get there. If you're a macho asshole who humps anything with chromosomes, if you abandon your family, that's the kind of son you're likely to produce. On the other hand, if he sees that you love and respect his mother and his sisters, that's what he'll learn about relating to women.

An oversimplification, I grant you, but I think there's a core of truth in it.
 

faithlessforeve

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Similarly, as a boy your first relationship with a man is your father, that'll be the first model you'll encounter for how you should behave as an adult male yourself when you get there. If you're a macho asshole who humps anything with chromosomes, if you abandon your family, that's the kind of son you're likely to produce. On the other hand, if he sees that you love and respect his mother and his sisters, that's what he'll learn about relating to women.

An oversimplification, I grant you, but I think there's a core of truth in it.

good lord, I hope not. My father was a drunken wife-beater who abandoned us 8 kids in the early 70's. I am NOT him. I grew up and learnt to respect women (and men) because of my mother . I had so much fear around my father that I knew I could never be like him.
 

Outta here

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faithless - that could have gone either way but I'm glad to hear you made a decision about the kind of man you won't be - having experienced what a poor example of a man is, you were able to define for yourself what a good man should be like.

Why is it so much easier to define what a good man is not, I wonder?
 

Outta here

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No, that's really not true at all imo, Walter.

What makes it seem that way is that when a man goes bad, it's often really bad - causing all kinds of negative consequences to his loved ones. This seems to garner much more attention than a 'good' man who quietly goes about the business of living his life and not causing harm to himself or others.