You do participate in 'the matrix' Cliffy... I assume that you use the services, infrastructure and whatnot that is offered by society.
B.C. School teachers - What would be fair?
- Thread starter JLM
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You do participate in 'the matrix' Cliffy... I assume that you use the services, infrastructure and whatnot that is offered by society.
As long as what they do doesn't interfere with anyone else I have no problem, but I do have a problem when I have to pay for someone else's agenda! :smile:
When they are on the payroll yes. Same as when what they do on their own time affects job performance. No one has a right to a paycheque. It has to be earned. For government employees it makes no difference but we are contractors and their lack of performance directly impacts our profit.
As one of my coworkers said,
These are kids,they only want to play.
Supporting the teachers gets them out of class and lets them play.
That is all they care about.
And despite ordering his kids not to walk out in support of the teachers he knows they will
because of peer pressure.
But Cliffy talks about the sheeple.
While I agree that a paycheque must be earnt, what we are debating is what is a fair wage. Simply because an employee opts in to a career of service to others does not mean he gives up on a fair wage. And, collective action is one means to that end. Also, that collective action helps us to focus on what our society should value.
Fire 100% of the strikers! Re[place them with people willing to work for the inflated wages, and very generous benefits that teachers get. And then, ban ANY Unions from involvement in education.
Interesting the assumptiveness of those steeped in the lore of the intelligentsia. The question is: what have the teachers done to earn a raise? but the question posed assumes a raise, we just don't know how much of one.
Such arrogance. Given that about 55% of Prov. Gov't revenues go to wages, those somewhat extravagant salaries (certainly in the health sector) and gold plated pension plans are paid for by debt.
Such arrogance. Given that about 55% of Prov. Gov't revenues go to wages, those somewhat extravagant salaries (certainly in the health sector) and gold plated pension plans are paid for by debt.
The teachers aren't entirely at fault in this. Every one these days THINKS they are worth $30-$40 an hour and more and the Unions by and large are just a fourth level of bureaucracy and even more useless than the other 3 levels. I was brought up in a world where we COULDN'T spend money we didn't have- much less than expect a raise in pay when the employer is $60 billion in debt. It makes no kind of economic sense and it makes even less moral sense. One of these days very soon the whole sh*tteree is going to collapse. Then perhaps some sanity will return. :smile:
Then twenty years from now start asking yourself why nobody wants to be a teacher anymore, and why BC students score so poorly on international standardized exams. I'm sure the government of that day will just blame the government from the previous term, instead of the actual culprits from decades before.
You don't get quality education by offering peanuts to the teachers. You don't do a service to the next generation by being miserly on their education. You want people of merit to teach children, then you have to pay what those people are worth, otherwise the people of merit will not go into education but into industry, where they will make much more money than what they do now. Education used to be a respectable career, now they are so maligned for political points, people with real sense need to think twice before entering the career. For the level of education, they are not payed competitively, and the public widely despises them.
Think about your suggestion. Think carefully if what you actually want in a teacher is a person willing to work for minimum wage or a person of merit.
Maybe we work to change the system and 20 years from now, we'll have a population of teachers that are highly effective. Fact is, BC students are scoring poorly on the standardized tests despite the endless strikes and demands for better pay and benefits which always is touted as the end-all-be-all solution.
Hasn't worked yet.
Take the pay scale and pro rate it over 9 or 10 months, it ain't peanuts in any form.
Unionized equations do not reward the best and weed-out the worst... It's a milquetoast solution that rarely is capable of competing with the private sector.
Want the best teachers? Pay them what they are worth - superior/above average compensation, but it must be earned through achieving superior results.
Perhaps if the teachers read the posts at the end of the many news articles on C.B.C. news (literally thousands) they might understand that support for them is only luke warm at best, and has cooled off since they voted to go on strike.
How are superior resulys defined? Are superior results the same for children struggling with English as Another Language, or in poverty, the same as for those children in high socio-economic neighbourhoods?
Most teacxhers have five or six years of post-secondary training. What is that education worth elsewhere in the market?
Of course it is peanuts. You have to compare it to what a person with the equivalent education could earn. You need a 4 years bachelor's degree to qualify for a BEd, then you need 1-2 years to finish that. For the same training you could get a Master's in chemistry or computer science and get a nice job making $150k or more, depending where you go. Many people choose education because it is something that they look up to, yet more and more teaching is a no longer a career people feel proud of.
And that is the real source of problems. Education programs have been eviscerated by governments since I was in elementary school. Constantly making cuts and changes has led to the current situation. Making further cuts and changes to entice improvements is just ignorant policy. Spinning propaganda so that teachers are viewed with disdain just makes people steer clear of it.
And that is the real source of problems. Education programs have been eviscerated by governments since I was in elementary school. Constantly making cuts and changes has led to the current situation. Making further cuts and changes to entice improvements is just ignorant policy. Spinning propaganda so that teachers are viewed with disdain just makes people steer clear of it.
Add to the "peanuts" a pension plan, sick leave days, healthcare plan, dental plan, 10 weeks summer vacation, two week Xmas vacation 2 weeks spring break. Amount of education is not the only criteria for evaluating a job, job security (high) for good teachers is a reality, tempertature regulated working environment is another, opportunties for further education is another.......................can you name me a single amenity they don't get? Time for them to quit whining! :smile:
Can you tell me a single one of those that the government doesn't try to sack every time the contract negotiations open up? That is why they go on strike.
Minus the summer vacation, those are all things that every other career of note that a person of the same education would expect to have. Failing that, they would expect to make more money to make up for it. Here's a few things I have in industry that teachers don't have: automatic raise for inflation every year, automatic raise if performance review is positive, automatic bonus pay if I bring in more profit than 2.5x my salary, choice of when to take my vacations, mileage sharing, subsidies for biking, flexible hours.
You have to ask yourself, are we giving teachers enough so that the people that become teachers are not the worst people in their class? Teaching needs to be a legitimate career choice, otherwise the good people will go somewhere else and we will have the rubbish teaching the next generation. If you want the best, then you have to compete with other industries to get those people. If you are willing to have less than the best teachers, than I guess you just value education less than me.
Many also choose education because they have no other job skills. Many should not really be teachers either.
That would be fine if we could dump the bad teachers but their union protects the worst ones. In BC for the most part we already have the rubish teaching our kids. That is why their union is dead set against testing.