At least 2,250 of Canada’s veterans are homeless due to alcoholism, drugs and mental

Machjo

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 19, 2004
17,878
61
48
Ottawa, ON
I would also like to thank the likes of canuck and machjo for doing such a bang up job of moving this thread away from the problems our military vets have with homelessness and moving it to the general population. Thus, once again, regulating our veterans to the back burner once again. Excelent job.

On the matter of pensions and whatnot, that is something to look into within military ranks.

On the matter of mental health, I don't see the efficiency (especially if the veteran eventually moves to a non-military town with not a base in a hundred miles) in establishing separate mental health services for veterans than for the general population except maybe for those living or working on a military base or in a military building. The same could apply to an Inuit living in downtown Toronto.

In such cases, in order to ensure that the veteran living far from the base or the Inuit living far from Nunavut be less likely to fall through the cracks, it would then be a good idea to ensure that they both have access to high-quality general local mental health services.

A segregated mental health system would ensure that veterans living far from a military base would be left lacking the necessary services.
 

Curious Cdn

Hall of Fame Member
Feb 22, 2015
37,070
7
36
During my father's generation (WWII Vets) the problem was ignored and I can remember some pretty screwed up fathers , back then, who had gone to hell and back. "No such thing as shell shock" I distinctly remember an old Vet Captain, whom I used to work, for telling me.

The good news is that most of them got past all of that.
 

Retired_Can_Soldier

The End of the Dog is Coming!
Mar 19, 2006
11,528
721
113
59
Alberta
The good news is that most of them got past all of that.

Probably not completely accurate. I'm guessing that a lot of cases translated into other things, like spousal and child abuse, alcoholism, depression. Thing was, being branded with these things was a scarlet letter.
 

Curious Cdn

Hall of Fame Member
Feb 22, 2015
37,070
7
36
Probably not completely accurate. I'm guessing that a lot of cases translated into other things, like spousal and child abuse, alcoholism, depression. Thing was, being branded with these things was a scarlet letter.

Yes, it was a matter of shame. My dad was okay after the war and a very decent man all around, thank God.
 

Cannuck

Time Out
Feb 2, 2006
30,245
99
48
Alberta
On the matter of pensions and whatnot, that is something to look into within military ranks.

On the matter of mental health, I don't see the efficiency (especially if the veteran eventually moves to a non-military town with not a base in a hundred miles) in establishing separate mental health services for veterans than for the general population except maybe for those living or working on a military base or in a military building. The same could apply to an Inuit living in downtown Toronto.

In such cases, in order to ensure that the veteran living far from the base or the Inuit living far from Nunavut be less likely to fall through the cracks, it would then be a good idea to ensure that they both have access to high-quality general local mental health services.

A segregated mental health system would ensure that veterans living far from a military base would be left lacking the necessary services.

I meant to give you a green for that. Damn iPhone
 

Machjo

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 19, 2004
17,878
61
48
Ottawa, ON
I had to move to Alberta from BC to find work in 2001. I left half my adult kids in BC. I'm none of the above.

and this has nothing to do with Homeless vets, which is what this thread is SUPPOSED to be about.


It does relate. The reasons vets end up on the streets are similar to why many indigenous Canadians end up on the streets: addictions stemming from various degrees of PTSD, OCD, and BPD probably stand among the most common.

If we can't understand why people end up on the streets, then how are we to understand how vets end up on the streets?

I meant to give you a green for that. Damn iPhone

No worries.
 

Tecumsehsbones

Hall of Fame Member
Mar 18, 2013
56,291
7,442
113
Washington DC
Yes, it was a matter of shame. My dad was okay after the war and a very decent man all around, thank God.
Seriously, CC. I am very happy for you that your dad came through it with a minimum of scars, physical and mental. I hope the fact that you had such a decent dad. But war affects different people different ways, y'know?
 

Curious Cdn

Hall of Fame Member
Feb 22, 2015
37,070
7
36
Seriously, CC. I am very happy for you that your dad came through it with a minimum of scars, physical and mental. I hope the fact that you had such a decent dad. But war affects different people different ways, y'know?

Well, all of the tropical diseases that he picked up in Asia seemed to have ruined his health....an unusual type of war wound.

By the way, near the end if his life when it all caught up with him, VA was there just as they should be now.
 

Tecumsehsbones

Hall of Fame Member
Mar 18, 2013
56,291
7,442
113
Washington DC
It's not. At the risk of beating a dead horse, Medicine Hat solved the homeless veteran problem.
And as you know, if you've been reading my posts, I consider the Housing First concept to be the best example of plain old horse sense that's come along in a couple of decades at least.

I totally agree with providing Housing First to all, which automatically includes veterans with home security problems. So that's that done and dusted. The next question is "Is there anything special about veterans, either in what they need or what Canada owes them, that can't be captured in anti-poverty or mental health programs for everyone?"

Well, all of the tropical diseases that he picked up in Asia seemed to have ruined his health....an unusual type of war wound.

By the way, near the end if his life when it all caught up with him, VA was there.
As it has been for me. VA gets a lot of criticism, much of it deserved. But they also do a pretty damn good job for most vets. I use VA for my health care, even though I have excellent health insurance, because I prefer the quality of care.

I'm sorry your dad had those problems, and yeah, tropical diseases (and other diseases) can be even harder to deal with than the usual combat-style wounds. Sounds like he was a good man. Like I said, you're lucky. Is he still with us, or is he gone?
 

Cannuck

Time Out
Feb 2, 2006
30,245
99
48
Alberta
And as you know, if you've been reading my posts, I consider the Housing First concept to be the best example of plain old horse sense that's come along in a couple of decades at least.

I totally agree with providing Housing First to all, which automatically includes veterans with home security problems. So that's that done and dusted. The next question is "Is there anything special about veterans, either in what they need or what Canada owes them, that can't be captured in anti-poverty or mental health programs for everyone?"

The short answer is no since I believe everybody deserves adequate health care and as I've said, the numbers of homeless vets don't seem above societal norms so I think the government is doing OK. I'd like the see the laws change to make it easier to step in when people are presenting in a manner that suggests mental health issues. Not being an expert, I'm not entirely sure how that would be done.
 

Tecumsehsbones

Hall of Fame Member
Mar 18, 2013
56,291
7,442
113
Washington DC
Let's break it down and see:
Your "breakdown" is, if you will pardon the expression, crap.

  • Tough? I don't consider myself tough in the physical sense. I've won some I've lost some.
  • I wasn't talking about your ability to beat up some big guy. Don't shine me on, ice road truckers damn well better be tough.
  • Accomplished? When I consider myself accomplished it will be time to retire.
  • Nonsense. When you're accomplished it's time to enjoy your expertise at doing things you like, while at the same time finding new things to tackle.
  • Intelligent? I think I have an exceptional intellect, but I am always willing to learn.
  • Which is one of the reasons your intellect is exceptional.
  • Creative? It is my joy, second to only one thing.
  • I would give a lot to have your writing talent, boss.
  • Free? Yes I feel very free. Everyone in the West should.
  • Yup.
  • Deeply loved by a wonderful woman? It is this I hold above all else.
  • As it should be. Please give Mrs. RCS my warm regards.
Burden? No way, man. I am one hell of a lucky guy.
Yeah, I was kinda kidding with that part. You've had quite a shot of luck, but you took what you got and ran with it.

Not a bad few decades work, all in all.
 

Curious Cdn

Hall of Fame Member
Feb 22, 2015
37,070
7
36
And as you know, if you've been reading my posts, I consider the Housing First concept to be the best example of plain old horse sense that's come along in a couple of decades at least.

I totally agree with providing Housing First to all, which automatically includes veterans with home security problems. So that's that done and dusted. The next question is "Is there anything special about veterans, either in what they need or what Canada owes them, that can't be captured in anti-poverty or mental health programs for everyone?"


As it has been for me. VA gets a lot of criticism, much of it deserved. But they also do a pretty damn good job for most vets. I use VA for my health care, even though I have excellent health insurance, because I prefer the quality of care.

I'm sorry your dad had those problems, and yeah, tropical diseases (and other diseases) can be even harder to deal with than the usual combat-style wounds. Sounds like he was a good man. Like I said, you're lucky. Is he still with us, or is he gone?
He would be 99 this year if he were still alive. I can't shake the feeling that we may never see the quality of the men of that generation, again but I digress.
 

Kreskin

Doctor of Thinkology
Feb 23, 2006
21,155
149
63
I know a guy who was a paramedic and a first responder to a horrendous murder scene back in the 90's - a guy had killed his wife and young kids with an ax. He hasn't worked a day since. He says there was a police officer involved as well who never worked again. Some people have been dealt a hell of a bad hand as they try to care for us. We should make sure they are looked after when they need us.
 
Last edited:

Machjo

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 19, 2004
17,878
61
48
Ottawa, ON
Those that have seen combat in Afghanistan or been involved in a gun battle would definitely parallel what a veteran would experience, but the RCMP has programs that are better equipped for this sort of thing and they have been around a very long time. The Armed Forces, in particular Canada's Veteran's have been virtually ignored.

So what precisely do you propose?

I'll take some guesses here, but feel free to correct me where I go wrong.

I take it you would support replacing the lump sum payment with a yearly income to start I presume?

At least that would take care of the lump sum being wasted on any possible addiction stemming from PTSD or other mental health problems? Or at least help the vet to control the flow somewhat.

In cases of extreme emotional or other debilitating leading to the streets, should the Government have a right to temporarily take care of his finances for him (i.e. pay his rent, etc. and curtail it from his savings) so as to provide him with shelter? Or maybe you'd propose abother solution in such a case?

Moving away from the matter of housing, what about mental health services?

Given that military personnel know a different culture from the general population, would it make sense to provide separate services on bases and in military buildings off-base that would specialize in combat-related PTSD?

How should we deal with vets who live off base and for whom on-base services would be inconvenient? Should we just ensure quality civilian care for addictions stemming from PTSD, whether from combat, police, fire, paramedics, indigenous peoples, etc.?

You also hinted at transgenerational trauma when you mentioned spousal and child abuse. What kind of services, whether civilian or military, should be provided to the spouses, ex-spouses, children, and adult children of military personnel who may suffer transgenerational trauma?

Now going on to education and advertizing.

I don't know how soldiers are taught about addiction or other mental health services. Do they receive formal courses o the subject? Posters in mess halls? Booklets and pamphlets in high-traffic public areas? Predominant ads on the military's main webpages?

I don't, but it would be interesting to read your perspective on how it's done, how effective you think it is, and how you would propose improvement on the mental-health education front among vets.

What kind of outreach are you aware of, whether civilian, military, or coordinated, to educate the spouses, ex-spouses, children and adult children of military personnel who may suffer transgenerational trauma? How effective is it in your opinion? How could it be improved? How might it also fit in with the treatment of the veterans themselves given that spouses, ex-spouses, and children suffering PTSD and the vet's PTSD will likely feed off of one another so as to undermine each one's treatment in their interactions with one another?

I would imagine that estrangement within the family (spouse, children) likely exacerbate the addiction or other mental health problems if they might all be suffering vatying degreen of PTSD wI thin the family. How should that be dealt with?

Again on the outreach front, given that the spouse and children of military personnel might not necessarily keep in the loop on military services available to them, would it make more sense for them to be served through local civilian mental health services except in the context of family counseling where civilian or military would both be acceptable?

Given that targeting such groups in outreach through the usual channels of posters, pamphlets on base or at the local libraey, etc. might be very hit and miss, what kind of legislation might you support to ensure advertizing of such services precisely where they might be looking (on beer bottles, lottery tickets, at casinos, etc.)?

Though I have ideas, I could be wrong on them, and I'm sure you have some insight on the matter yourself.
 

Tecumsehsbones

Hall of Fame Member
Mar 18, 2013
56,291
7,442
113
Washington DC
He would be 99 this year if he were still alive. I can't shake the feeling that we may never see the quality of the men of that generation, again but I digress.
They were the greatest soldiers since Thermopylae. But there's plenty of good men (and women!) around these days, too. I urge you to make a point of looking for them. It'll make your life and theirs better.
 

Retired_Can_Soldier

The End of the Dog is Coming!
Mar 19, 2006
11,528
721
113
59
Alberta
So what precisely do you propose?

I'll take some guesses here, but feel free to correct me where I go wrong.

I take it you would support replacing the lump sum payment with a yearly income to start I presume?

That would be a start.

At least that would take care of the lump sum being wasted on any possible addiction stemming from PTSD or other mental health problems? Or at least help the vet to control the flow somewhat.
A Vet who loses the use of her or his legs gets a lump sum payout, depending on the severity rating. In one case a wheelchair bound vet was rewarded $100,000. A hundred G's isn't a lot of money, especially if you are disabled. The new Veterans Charter pays out sums like this and kicks them to the curb. Think about this for a moment. An individual living in suburbia can't buy a house for a hundred G's, let alone a house that is wheel chair ready. Not everything is PTSD. Some of the guys my son helped off the Hercules in KAF were coming off minus hands, missing legs, others were blind. These were the ones you didn't see in the ramp ceremonies, for a myriad of reasons. Bad optics, family considerations, privacy issues. Nobody follows those vets to the hospital in Germany and eventually Ottawa.


In cases of extreme emotional or other debilitating leading to the streets, should the Government have a right to temporarily take care of his finances for him (i.e. pay his rent, etc. and curtail it from his savings) so as to provide him with shelter? Or maybe you'd propose another solution in such a case?

Moving away from the matter of housing, what about mental health services?

Given that military personnel know a different culture from the general population, would it make sense to provide separate services on bases and in military buildings off-base that would specialize in combat-related PTSD?

How should we deal with vets who live off base and for whom on-base services would be inconvenient? Should we just ensure quality civilian care for addictions stemming from PTSD, whether from combat, police, fire, paramedics, indigenous peoples, etc.?No, this is specialized because it has to cover so many different types of injuries and I'm sorry, it has to be for the rest of the Veterans life, unless they return to society in full recovery.

You also hinted at transgenerational trauma when you mentioned spousal and child abuse. What kind of services, whether civilian or military, should be provided to the
spouses, ex-spouses, children, and adult children of military personnel who may suffer transgenerational trauma?
I didn't hint anything. I was talking about Vets who came back from WWI and WWII, Korea and addressing what Curious Canadian was saying how veterans from those wars faired out better. I doubt they did, I have a good friend who is a war historian and the fact of the mmatter is that a lot of Veterans just suffered in silence and those issue were undoubtly a byproduct of that suffering.

Now going on to education and advertizing.

I don't know how soldiers are taught about addiction or other mental health services. Do they receive formal courses o the subject? Posters in mess halls? Booklets and pamphlets in high-traffic public areas? Predominant ads on the military's main webpages?

I don't, but it would be interesting to read your perspective on how it's done, how effective you think it is, and how you would propose improvement on the mental-health education front among vets.

What kind of outreach are you aware of, whether civilian, military, or coordinated, to educate the spouses, ex-spouses, children and adult children of military personnel who may suffer transgenerational trauma? How effective is it in your opinion? How could it be improved? How might it also fit in with the treatment of the veterans themselves given that spouses, ex-spouses, and children suffering PTSD and the vet's PTSD will likely feed off of one another so as to undermine each one's treatment in their interactions with one another?

I would imagine that estrangement within the family (spouse, children) likely exacerbate the addiction or other mental health problems if they might all be suffering vatying degreen of PTSD wI thin the family. How should that be dealt with?

Again on the outreach front, given that the spouse and children of military personnel might not necessarily keep in the loop on military services available to them, would it make more sense for them to be served through local civilian mental health services except in the context of family counseling where civilian or military would both be acceptable?

Given that targeting such groups in outreach through the usual channels of posters, pamphlets on base or at the local libraey, etc. might be very hit and miss, what kind of legislation might you support to ensure advertizing of such services precisely where they might be looking (on beer bottles, lottery tickets, at casinos, etc.)?

Though I have ideas, I could be wrong on them, and I'm sure you have some insight on the matter yourself.
I am going to sum it up this way. When Troops went to Afghanistan they would do a decompression after the tour in Cyprus. You want to know what the decompression involves. Getting sh!tfaced drunk because it's over. Then they go home. The Canadian Military, up until General Romeo Dallaire was found drunk on a park bench in Ottawa, did not even acknowledge PTSD and this was before soldiers were deployed to Afghanistan.

There was, and still is a culture within the military that looks down on injured soldiers. I went through this when I was medically released after being at the top of my game both as a soldier and an NCO. Once I blew out my legs, I became a liability and they couldn't get rid of me fast enough. Veterans Affairs shut me out and denied me any benefits for the three leg operations and subsequent things I would need to re-enter the work force. I wasn't even looking for a pension, I just wanted proper footwear and physical therapy that would help with the day to day pain I suffered (and still suffer by the way) in both my legs.

I had muscle hernias in both legs as a result of an injury called compartment syndrome which affects both Athletes and Soldiers.

They insisted I did not have compartment syndromes, because that would back up my claim that 12 years of humping a rucksack caused the injury, so they said it was it was hereditary and ignored that over 12 years of medical files and three operations the surgeons kept saying this looks like compartment syndromes.

I was denied my claims on appeals.

I didn't think I was going to lose, but I did and as a result I made a few mistakes when filing my claim. Mistakes VAC was sure to take advantage of. So, I became a veterans advocate. I got the help of a retired VAC employee and between the two of us we got as many injured soldiers help as we could. And we did, I started a blog that exposed the BS (Before there was such a thing) and we helped as many as we could.

In my case, I never saw anything, my file was and is red flagged by Veterans Review and Appeal Board after I brought so much heat down on them between 1998 and 2002. Not only did we expose a scandal where medical records were being shredded, but I appeared on the CBC with Ann Petre on National television to talk about it.

In regard to my own claim, I was told by insiders that the only way I would ever get a pension was if I hired a very expensive lawyer and took the government to court. This fight consumed me until the latter part of 2003 and after almost destroying my marriage and pushing me to the very edge, I finally abandon that fight to get on with my life. I had kids to raise and life to rebuild.

And that's what I did.

Since then a lot a things have changed, including the new veterans charter that basically stripped Wounded Vets of benefits.

What can we do? We can bring back an Ombudsman (which the conservatives pushed out) we can take care of people long term and we put proper training and SOP's in place for dealing with wounded soldiers. In the CF there have been some positive changes, but it does not go nearly far enough.

The investment far outweighs the cost.
 
Last edited: