Angry Chirac leaves summit as Frenchman speaks English.

[cortez]

Re: RE: Angry Chirac leaves summit as Frenchman speaks Engli

i also think learning english as a mother tongue actually impedes your ability to learn any other language -- just becuase of the shear neuronal expense required to hard wire such a messed up code---native english speakers ---tend not to learn other languages for at least 2 reasons
1-- they dont want to make the effort ie arrogance
2--- They simply CANT do it

Awhy should any one NEED two languages. It is a complete waste of time and serves no purpose but to retard communication and thinking ability. Why would a parent want to harm their child by having them learn French when it is a redundant ability they can do without.

Let you kid take music or some other more worth while talent they can enjoy their whole lives. Extra languages will be only good for archaeology in 50 years.

The only think keeping French in Canada is the Civil Service to keep newer immigrants out of the higher public jobs by creating a bearier to entry called bilingualism.

its a lot of fun to learn another language
i a have very rough understanding of french and spanish-- and even tried learning some japaneese in preparation for a trip-- not as difficult as you might think..

most educated people in the world have at least a rough understanding of a second language

learning another language does put you in touch with an entirely different culture than your own--- and one of the things you realize is that many other cultures-- certainly french, hispanic and japaneese cultures-- are VAST
they are a whole universe -- a world as large as our own ---culturally that is-- and it makes one realize that ones own language is just that-- one of many many langauges-- english is a language NOT --THE language-- these are invaluable insights----- for me anyway

 

[Machjo]

Thanks Cortez.

And IamCanadian;

If you would like to learn a second language but don't have much time to invest in it, try:

http://www.lernu.net/

Not only could you become fluent in a second language within 100 hours of self-instruction, but knowing two languages can also help you to learn a third should wish to do so. And even if you don't move on to a third, bilingualism alone (in any two languages, even if you do just choose an easy second language for lack of time) is already a great sign of respect for the rest of the world in that you've shown yourself willing to meet the rest of the world halfway in its communication with you by giving them another option besides your own. Think of it as a linguistic handshake between cultures, whereby you both make the effort to extend your hands out. If you don't learn a second language, it's as if you're not interested in reaching out to shake hands.

 

[JoeyB]

RE: Angry Chirac leaves s

what will happen to cultural diversity when all these languages are lost?

people will lose their identity, their individuality, their cultural heritage.

I'm all for communication and a common language, but not at the expense of a nation or races' loss of culture and identity.
Just like fancophiles want to keep their french dialect, so to do others wish to keep their colloquialisms and strine.
Regardless of a 'common language' in the future, it's not going to be in our lifetime that we see it, unless someone brings to market a voice recognition pocket translator for every single language and dialect thereof worldwide. Thats how a common language is going to evolve... the masses learning from instant translation.

 

[iamcanadian]

Re: RE: Angry Chirac leaves s

what will happen to cultural diversity when all these languages are lost?

people will lose their identity, their individuality, their cultural heritage.

I'm all for communication and a common language, but not at the expense of a nation or races' loss of culture and identity.
Just like fancophiles want to keep their french dialect, so to do others wish to keep their colloquialisms and strine.
Regardless of a 'common language' in the future, it's not going to be in our lifetime that we see it, unless someone brings to market a voice recognition pocket translator for every single language and dialect thereof worldwide. Thats how a common language is going to evolve... the masses learning from instant translation.

This kind of view is not so different from being phobic about blacks mixing with whites and all people becomming a uniform colour of brown that scared white supremist and KKK types to hand a burn people in the 50's and 60's

The sooner we loose all the different languages but one the better. The segragation, vanity, and arogance of feeling better than someone else because of a stupid language one learns is practically moronic.

It is a retardation of our species. Learning a different language if one does not need to is like learning to play a violin sure its nice hobby but it should not be a legislated obligation. Legislation should exist the other way to prevent people from NOT learing ONE common language everyone else around them can understand.

French as a second language is at best a hobby and this is how it should be treated in Canada.

 

[JoeyB]

Re: RE: Angry Chirac leaves s

what will happen to cultural diversity when all these languages are lost?

people will lose their identity, their individuality, their cultural heritage.

I'm all for communication and a common language, but not at the expense of a nation or races' loss of culture and identity.
Just like fancophiles want to keep their french dialect, so to do others wish to keep their colloquialisms and strine.
Regardless of a 'common language' in the future, it's not going to be in our lifetime that we see it, unless someone brings to market a voice recognition pocket translator for every single language and dialect thereof worldwide. Thats how a common language is going to evolve... the masses learning from instant translation.

This kind of view is not so different from being phobic about blacks mixing with whites and all people becomming a uniform colour of brown that scared white supremist and KKK types to hand a burn people in the 50's and 60's

The sooner we loose all the different languages but one the better. The segragation, vanity, and arogance of feeling better than someone else because of a stupid language one learns is practically moronic.

It is a retardation of our species. Learning a different language if one does not need to is like learning to play a violin sure its nice hobby but it should not be a legislated obligation. Legislation should exist the other way to prevent people from NOT learing ONE common language everyone else around them can understand.

French as a second language is at best a hobby and this is how it should be treated in Canada.

Now thats some serious statement to make.
Firstly you are propelling the myth that because someone is speaking a different language, somehow they are 'better'.
I've never heard so much Bullshit in my life. To believe that you must be a socially challenged person. I would say it's not a very educated statement to make. Chirac is not the centre of the universe, and doesn't speak for at least 25 million people in this nation.
Not once did I mention the need to legislate in my statement.
Just where do you think you are going with your misguided view?

People and nations have the right to be different, and thats what makes our society wonderful. Keep your idealistic communist propaganda in the gulag where it belongs. We're all individuals, we don't need to be conforming to a one-view-only worldwide policy.

As I stated, a single language won't be achievable in our lifetime, and most likely never will, but for all you idealists out there who would like everyone to conform to your way of thinking, how about you learn more than one language and try and become acceptable to others, instead of preaching your recalcitrant views and imposing them on others. If I make that effort, so can others.

Honestly, what do YOU hope to achieve with a single-minded conformist human race? communication in a single language is fine, but not at the expense of a person's origin and identity. You do not have the right, to take away the identity of your fellow man.

Insofar as it being aligned with Extremist cults and religious fundamentalism, There could not be a more clearly defined differential than that of my opinion versus that of yourself. I never mentioned extremism, and made no place for it in my statement. The fact that you accept the 'need to integrate' these views in yours, betrays the thoughts behind your opinion, and your own statement.

I shall give you time to consider your opinion in the light of my clarification, and before you go off half-cocked a second time, maybe you would like to clarify your statement and define how racism and fundamentalist extremism somehow relate to the desire of a nation to preserve it's language and cultural identity in a progressive world environment. I can't make it any easier for you than that.

 

[hunnyb84]

Reply with quote
keep talking guys, that will just convince me that i should be a separatist.


You know what? No one cares if you want to seperate. In fact, most anglo's would love it. I know I would! Geez, you quebequers are just like over-emotional adolecesants threatening to run away from home because you cant always have your way.

Well you know what you need mon amis? A serious relality check.
Quebequers feel alienated because thier own government is alienating them. Not the rest of Canada. The bloc quebecois is isolating you in an attempt to "preserve the culture", which, would not need to be preserved if the french-canadians actually liked the culture. It would sustain itself, would it not? If english cultue is so bad, than why do the quebecois mimic almost every aspect of it? They watch english movies, watch english tv, eat at english restaurants, listen to english music, buy english trends, and even adopt english slang like "cool" and "awesome". C'mon now. You're jealous because you've been made to feel like you dont belong in Canada. Well here's your reality check. No one outside of quebec cares. We dont see you as different until you prove that you are. Open your eyes and see its your own government, not the rest of Canada, that is cutting you off.

<SNIP ... fixed typos as I'm sure they were not meant as any kind of slam against us gay folk. Cosmo>

 

[Machjo]

Re: RE: Angry Chirac leaves s

what will happen to cultural diversity when all these languages are lost?

people will lose their identity, their individuality, their cultural heritage.

I'm all for communication and a common language, but not at the expense of a nation or races' loss of culture and identity.
Just like fancophiles want to keep their french dialect, so to do others wish to keep their colloquialisms and strine.
Regardless of a 'common language' in the future, it's not going to be in our lifetime that we see it, unless someone brings to market a voice recognition pocket translator for every single language and dialect thereof worldwide. Thats how a common language is going to evolve... the masses learning from instant translation.

Well, it's obvious that people are looking for a common language. In China, Englsih is the rage as of kindergarrten. If it weren't for bill 101, French would be dead in Montreal already. And governments, while they might be able to redirect this desire to another language, will never be able to quench it any more. Not since the telegraph appeared in 1844. However, if the real or perceived universal language is a difficult one such as Englsih, it means people must devote so much time to that that it's only a matter of time in the end before the local language disappears. If, on the other hand, the universal language should be an easy one to learn, then once people should have mastered it afte no more than five years (two for most people), then they could go back to developping their own languages, satisfied of theri ability to communicate with the world.

Thus the only way to preserve local language in this day is to promote an easy-to-learn auxiliary language.

 

[Machjo]

Re: RE: Angry Chirac leaves s

quote="iamcanadian"

what will happen to cultural diversity when all these languages are lost?

people will lose their identity, their individuality, their cultural heritage.

I'm all for communication and a common language, but not at the expense of a nation or races' loss of culture and identity.
Just like fancophiles want to keep their french dialect, so to do others wish to keep their colloquialisms and strine.
Regardless of a 'common language' in the future, it's not going to be in our lifetime that we see it, unless someone brings to market a voice recognition pocket translator for every single language and dialect thereof worldwide. Thats how a common language is going to evolve... the masses learning from instant translation.

Reality check. I don't care too much about repeserving local languages either beyond having access to certain literature myself (one reaon for my plurilingualism; much literature still isn't availabe in English!). But I also care about justice and peace. This means that I must care about what otehrs care about. Most do care, and potentially violently so, worldwise. Thus sensitivity to language issues is a fundamental part of maintaining peace in the world wether you like it or not.

This kind of view is not so different from being phobic about blacks mixing with whites and all people becomming a uniform colour of brown that scared white supremist and KKK types to hand a burn people in the 50's and 60's

Actually, it's radically different. If I'm the only white man in town (hey wait a minute, I'm probably the only white man in my block right now!), its doesn't necessarily impact on my life. But if I don't know the local language, that limits my job opprotunities (the only work I can do in China relates to language, teaching, translation, and other language-related services for the government and various local companies). Even if we ignore visa regulations, I wouldn't even be qualified as a waiter in town due to my inability to communicate a menue efficiently. So when you immagine it that way, you can then understand why minority language groups can react so violently, regardless of culture worldwide. If their language area shrinks, this has a direct and significant impact on their life and potentially survival within society. Skin colour is nothing compared to this kind of threat.

The sooner we loose all the different languages but one the better. The segragation, vanity, and arogance of feeling better than someone else because of a stupid language one learns is practically moronic.

Excellent! So have you decided yet what language that ought to be? 'Cause until we have that settled,how are we supposed to carry out this plan of yours. Nice theory on paper, but now the devil's in the details. So, which language will be the winner?

It is a retardation of our species. Learning a different language if one does not need to is like learning to play a violin sure its nice hobby but it should not be a legislated obligation. Legislation should exist the other way to prevent people from NOT learing ONE common language everyone else around them can understand.

Can't you see the flawed logic here? If you want a world language, which we don't have at the moment, how's that to be achieved without anyone learning a second language? Someone will have to do it. So please explain this one to me.

French as a second language is at best a hobby and this is how it should be treated in Canada.

I've needed French for work on occasion. I agree not for everyone, but you have no idea how limited your world is with English only.

 

[JoeyB]

RE: Angry Chirac leaves s

I never said there was anythign wrong with the pursuit of a single language either... and most people will use a single common language to communicate with people from other cultures in the future, but as I said, it's not going to happen overnight, and people will also wish to preserve their natural heritage and culture, including their language also.

You only have to look at the Indigenous people to see how much culture and language is lost through their mass extermination, and now it has become such a part of 'national culture' that the people themselves only have a miniscule knowledge of their forebears and it's language and traditions. So NO, not at the expense of a culture and tradition should one be forced to accept a single language as the only means of communication. Sure, in parallel, no problems. But if you want to promote the loss of cultural diversity and force those trying to preserve it, out of the picture, you're only promoting an ignorance to individuality.

people can make up their own minds about their personal need for a single communicative language. until then, get a translator. No person has the right to enforce their language on another, so when something becomes generally accepted by the populus, then, and only then will it be accepted by all as a convenient means of communication.

As for my own opinion on the issue, I feel that if a person is so blatantly ignorant of anothers language culture and heritage and wishes to force them to communicate in a language that isn't mutually convenient, then they should go and learn to appreciate other cultures before forcing their own upon others.. and that just about sums up quebec also.

since when did it hurt people to learn another language? monolinguists should be ashamed of themselves and have no right to debate this point.

 

[Machjo]

Re: RE: Angry Chirac leaves s

I never said there was anythign wrong with the pursuit of a single language either... and most people will use a single common language to communicate with people from other cultures in the future, but as I said, it's not going to happen overnight, and people will also wish to preserve their natural heritage and culture, including their language also.

You only have to look at the Indigenous people to see how much culture and language is lost through their mass extermination, and now it has become such a part of 'national culture' that the people themselves only have a miniscule knowledge of their forebears and it's language and traditions. So NO, not at the expense of a culture and tradition should one be forced to accept a single language as the only means of communication. Sure, in parallel, no problems. But if you want to promote the loss of cultural diversity and force those trying to preserve it, out of the picture, you're only promoting an ignorance to individuality.

people can make up their own minds about their personal need for a single communicative language. until then, get a translator. No person has the right to enforce their language on another, so when something becomes generally accepted by the populus, then, and only then will it be accepted by all as a convenient means of communication.

As for my own opinion on the issue, I feel that if a person is so blatantly ignorant of anothers language culture and heritage and wishes to force them to communicate in a language that isn't mutually convenient, then they should go and learn to appreciate other cultures before forcing their own upon others.. and that just about sums up quebec also.

since when did it hurt people to learn another language? monolinguists should be ashamed of themselves and have no right to debate this point.

All good points. Certainly a universal auxiliary language could advance human civilization significantly, but only if such a language is decided upon through consultation with representatives from all nations worldwide; not by just being crammed onto the world without any consultation whatsoever, as is occurring with English. And this explains the resistance of course.

 

[iamcanadian]

What difference does which language make?

Who cares as long as people can communicate. What you people are worring about us which colour the language is. Again that is a racist and bigited view of believing French is better or whatever than English.

The world will simply take the language it choses. What French want is to have a language dictated by state. I say MERDE to that idea let the people be free to decide which language they personal want.

STOP protecting and advancing the French language because you think you are superior. This is what is that makes you arogant and racists. You are not. In fact the French Culture is INFERIOR to other cultures because it tries to protect something that should not need protecting if it was desirable.

French is not a desirable language and therefore will die and the sooner it dies the better for everyone including the French Culture.

 

[aeon]

Re: RE: Angry Chirac leaves summit as Frenchman speaks Engli

What difference does which language make?

Who cares as long as people can communicate. What you people are worring about us which colour the language is. Again that is a racist and bigited view of believing French is better or whatever than English.

The world will simply take the language it choses. What French want is to have a language dictated by state. I say MERDE to that idea let the people be free to decide which language they personal want.

STOP protecting and advancing the French language because you think you are superior. This is what is that makes you arogant and racists. You are not. In fact the French Culture is INFERIOR to other cultures because it tries to protect something that should not need protecting if it was desirable.

French is not a desirable language and therefore will die and the sooner it dies the better for everyone including the French Culture.

Ok then, let s look all the same, lets have one culture, lets speak one language,damn that is hitler wet dream , actually hitler had the same view of the french like you do.

 

[iamcanadian]

My views about French Canadians comes mainly from dealing with French Canadian Breuraucrats and the French Canadian Politicians running Le Conseil Scolare du District Du Centre Sud Ouest.

A most arrogant group of thieving cowardly stuck up bullies I have ever met. I believe they are a good representative sample of the typical French Canadian Class that screw the Non-French Canadian public taxpayers.

 

[jimmoyer]

We rented a fishing cottage by a frenchman named
Lucien for two summers on one of the Rideau lakes.

The second summer when we came back, we asked
where the boats were and he pointed to an empty
dock.

We looked at him quizzically.

He said, "Go down there, you will see them."

One of the few burly frenchman who was born
200 years too late, but who spoke Anglais and so
we went down to the docks.

There they were. Just as he said, we'd see them.

Underwater.

 

[Machjo]

Re: RE: Angry Chirac leaves summit as Frenchman speaks Engli

quote="iamcanadian"What difference does which language make?

It's the difference between communication and non-communication on a world-wide scale. To put it simply, whatever language serves as the internaional one immediately gives it's native speakers an unjust advantage over the resto of the world. This injustice leads to resentment, which in turn leads to conflict. So much for your being an advocate of world peace. Oh well, as long as your group the the biggest world piece!

Who cares as long as people can communicate.

I agree with you here, which is exacly why I care.

What you people are worring about us which colour the language is.

FYI, language has no colour!

Again that is a racist and bigited view of believing French is better or whatever than English.

Are you illiterate or decidedly stupid? Who said French is better than English? As for racism, that relates to race, not language. Also, how can yo tell a French-speaker apart from an English-speaker based on race; I can't.

The world will simply take the language it choses.

Not at all true. Most people I meet in China hate English, but they learn it solely in acknowledgement of US economic, policital and military power. They believe that they have no choice in the matter. So if they believe they have no choice, then it's no longer a choice. Same applies with the Quebecois; many if not most of them don't believe they have a choice in the matter of learning English. So now the onus is for you to prove to me that people will necessarily study a language of choice as opposed to a language of real or perceived imposition. When one believes, rightly or not, that a language is being imposed upon them, it naturally leads to resentment yet again.

What French want is to have a language dictated by state.

Actually, many do. And here's why. They know that if given the "choice", they'd be forced into a race to English, the winner being the first there, the losers being the last past the goal line. Major economic concequences.

I say MERDE to that idea let the people be free to decide which language they personal want.

What freedom is there when they believe there is no choice beyond government control? If that's the only choice they perceive, then that's the choice they make. So if you don't like the government controls, it's up to you to educate them about their other choices. But of course you'll need to be able to communicate with them in order to do this.

STOP protecting and advancing the French language because you think you are superior.

Again, are you illiterate or decidedly stupid? Who's even defending the French language here?

This is what is that makes you arogant and racists.

What is "that"?

You are not. In fact the French Culture is INFERIOR to other cultures because it tries to protect something that should not need protecting if it was desirable.

Then you're grossly ignorant of the issue if you believe that. Laws similar to Bill 101 exist in Italy, Poland, and a few other nations, not to mention other weaker types of language laws found in China, Japan, the Eu and, again, other nations. You only hear about Bill 101 because it pertains to Canada and much information about it is available in English for you monolinguals to be aware of it. And the you react with shock and awe due to the fact that you're not even aware that its provisions are to be found in similar lagislation in a host of countries, thus putting France and Quebec in the norm.

French is not a desirable language and therefore will die and the sooner it dies the better for everyone including the French Culture.

Desirable in what sense? As an auxiliary language? In that case, neither is English (in fact as an auxiliary French has certain intrinsic grammatical advantages over English). As a national language? In that case you're obviously ignorant of the fact that the French language is a fundamental part of its culture just as Englsih is a fundamental part of yours. Would you like Englsih to die and then just read Shakespear in translation?

How about this. Learr a second language, and get back to me when you're done.

 

[Machjo]

Re: RE: Angry Chirac leaves summit as Frenchman speaks Engli

My views about French Canadians comes mainly from dealing with French Canadian Breuraucrats and the French Canadian Politicians running Le Conseil Scolare du District Du Centre Sud Ouest.

A most arrogant group of thieving cowardly stuck up bullies I have ever met. I believe they are a good representative sample of the typical French Canadian Class that screw the Non-French Canadian public taxpayers.

Oh, I see. I met an Iraqi family recently, and their skin is black. So I suppose this means all Iraqis are black. I met an Australian recently and she's about to retire; Oh man, what's Australia going to do when their whole population retires in the next two years? All my Philipino friends in town are teachers; man, what do they do to fill all the other positions in their country, bring in foreign staff? I have a black American friend in town; so I suppose that means all Americans are black?

So you've met, what, 9 French-speakers inyour life, and so now pretend to know the entire French culture world-wide? I think you deed to read more.

 

[Finder]

Re: RE: Angry Chirac leaves summit as Frenchman speaks Engli

My views about French Canadians comes mainly from dealing with French Canadian Breuraucrats and the French Canadian Politicians running Le Conseil Scolare du District Du Centre Sud Ouest.

A most arrogant group of thieving cowardly stuck up bullies I have ever met. I believe they are a good representative sample of the typical French Canadian Class that screw the Non-French Canadian public taxpayers.

I'm starting to feel sorry for you. You must have some real problems mentally, because you seem like a nice guy but you just don't seem to have a firm grasp of reality and you are blaming your problems on a ethnic group.

 

[Curiosity]

Machjo

Don't sweat the "small stuff". You have done a great job here with all the information you have shared.

Amazing at what people pick up out of a topic isn't it? It never was about a dominant/superior language but about communication availability for the people on the planet....a handy tool which
could save much misunderstanding among groups.....ease of exchange in information, technology, science and humanities.

(Still reading.......lol)......WC

 

[JoeyB]

RE: Angry Chirac leaves s

Yes it is amazing how people deviate from the norm.

we perhaps should start gathering data for a bell-curve to show just how much the deviation from the norm actually is

Now THAT would be some interesting data

 

[aeon]

Re: RE: Angry Chirac leaves summit as Frenchman speaks Engli

My views about French Canadians comes mainly from dealing with French Canadian Breuraucrats and the French Canadian Politicians running Le Conseil Scolare du District Du Centre Sud Ouest.

A most arrogant group of thieving cowardly stuck up bullies I have ever met. I believe they are a good representative sample of the typical French Canadian Class that screw the Non-French Canadian public taxpayers.

Hey you moron, i am a french canadians and proud of it, go spew your hatred somewhere else, we didnt screw anyone in canada,more money goes out of the province, than in, so stick to the fact.