And the hatchet jobs begin. CBC: Convoy donors gave more than $460K to CPC leadership race — and many were first-time federal donors

Taxslave2

Electoral Member
Aug 13, 2022
371
190
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He may be "pro choice" personally but he has stated unequivocally that he would not change the abortion laws in Canada. A true leader will only tackle issues that are important to Canadians. Abortion isn't on the table!
It is on the table, according to the left wing extremists. They want it on the table. Just don't want to put it on the table themselves.
AS you must have noticed by now, when ever a lefty claims something that is obviously false, they are looking in the mirror while typing.
 

The_Foxer

Council Member
Aug 9, 2022
1,298
790
113
Not really, it just doesn't get much air time in conservative circles, where environmental and social issues tend to get scoffed at rather than seriously considered.
Ok - well, go ahead then. I'm always open to learning. But - we're talking fiscal policy. Friedman wasn't an enviroinmentalist. :)
Middle and lower class wages have been largely stagnant since neoliberal economics gained popularity in the eighties, Reagan in the US, Thatcher in the UK, and Mulroney in Canada, and they have not kept pace with the cost of living which has result in a net decline in quality of life.
Sure they have. Last i looked until you get to trudeau's recent foibles with inflation wages have been above inflation by about 1 percent and change for the last 20 years. And not just overall, but if you break it down by industry.
That only works if you cherry pick the years. The mid to late 70's was a period of very unusually high wages which would go on to fuel the massive inflation and interest rates of the early 80.'s

But when you look at the statcan :

And you look at the average inflation:

You can see that in fact wages have been gaining.

And the tax burden is actually lower as well. So people keep more of their wages.

So sure you could cherry pick ONE year to compare but that's not real. An examination over time shows that indeed wages have been doing just fine specifically in the 90's/2000'

In any case, i'm not seeing where the changes are or are not a result of friedman's economics.
Distribution of wealth is sorely out of whack, and our middle class is shrinking as manufacturing jobs continue to be outsourced to foreign countries, and wealth becomes concentrated at the very top of the earnings curve.
Sorry but the idea of 'wealth distribution' isn't a real thing. It's what socialists use to explain things but it suggests that there's a finite amount of wealth that must be distributed. Which is not true in the slightest.

We do have some serious issues dragging on the middle class at the moment but it's not a 'wealth distribution' issue. Inflation is killing it, and there are a number of tax and claw back issues which really prevent people from getting ahead into the middlle class. But that's not because they can't EARN wealth.

But regradless - your claim was this all was a result of following Milton's works. I'm not seeing any evidence of that.

Um - from your own source:

But isn’t the average Canadian better off today?​


Yes, the average Canadian is better off than she or he was a generation ago. In 1976, average income was $51,100; by 2009, it was $59,700—an increase of 17 per cent over 33 years. These figures are in real dollars—which means converting the 1976 income figure into 2009 dollars by adjusting for inflation.

It then goes on to try to explain how that doesn't REALLY matter because ... er.... reasons. However as i said if you dig into the industrial averages and down to some pretty granular levels everybody's been doing better. Either a little better, or a lot better, but better.

So when you say people are worse off that's not accurate. BUT - for fun, lets say for a moment it was. Where are you showing that's a 'friedman' issue?

Deregulation of environmental standards favouring corporate profits has been progressing for decades, marked by a large scale dismantling of environmental research and regulatory enforcement agencies by the Harper Conservatives. Environmental concerns are cast aside as unwarranted or too expensive while ignoring the fact that continued neglect in this area will cost us much, much more in the long term.

Canada’s Top Climate Change Risks

Aside from being a little untrue - it's utterly irrelevant to freidmans' work in the slightest.
Neoliberal thinking is traditionally short sighted, placing short term profits ahead of long term consequences. In terms of cost to the individual and the economy in general, the "pay later" approach will be considerably higher than taking prudent steps to dealing with these issues now, and the "pay now" cost is already much higher than it would have been had we paid attention to these matters forty or fifty years ago when the smarter ones among us already saw it coming.

Well that's not 'neo-liberal' -that's just liberal. They always spend now and worry about consequences later. THat's how we got into trouble in the early 80's and we're getting into the same trouble now. Liberals don't give a crap about what happens after the next election cycle.

But again.... that would have zero to do with anything Friedman would have said.

I'm afraid you failed even once to support your claim. First off you're in error that wages and wealth haven't increased for the middle class in 40 years. They did. Cherry picking a high just before a massive crash (which was caused by the high) is not a valid statistical tool.

But far more importantly NONE of ANYTHING you posted even began to TRY To explain how it tied into Freidman's works specifically. LIke - at all.

No offense but your examples are the kind that we occasionally see kicking around more 'socially' oriented left wing sites (usually just before demanding GBI) and they sound good but they don't stand up to deep scruitiny.

IN the last few years the challenges facing the middle class have gone up, there's no doubt. But it's got nothing to do with outsourcing jobs in the slightest, and it's got nothing to do with freidman.
 

petros

The Central Scrutinizer
Nov 21, 2008
102,018
7,300
113
Moccasin Flats
Yup. His bio speaks of his devotion to Milton Freidman, a driving force behind neoliberal economics, and PP calls him a "seminal influence" in his life and politics.
Would you drive an Olds 88 in a modern Formula One race?

Those antiquated methods don't fit in the Global schemes. Conservatives are aware that the youth is shifting gears and leaning right across all spectrums. They don't want to throw the poor under the bus and they aren't happy seeing their future being controlled and dictated. It's their future at stake, not mine. They don't wanted to be scraping by like their Gen X parents.
 
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Taxslave2

Electoral Member
Aug 13, 2022
371
190
43
Ok - well, go ahead then. I'm always open to learning. But - we're talking fiscal policy. Friedman wasn't an enviroinmentalist. :)

Sure they have. Last i looked until you get to trudeau's recent foibles with inflation wages have been above inflation by about 1 percent and change for the last 20 years. And not just overall, but if you break it down by industry.

That only works if you cherry pick the years. The mid to late 70's was a period of very unusually high wages which would go on to fuel the massive inflation and interest rates of the early 80.'s

But when you look at the statcan :

And you look at the average inflation:

You can see that in fact wages have been gaining.

And the tax burden is actually lower as well. So people keep more of their wages.

So sure you could cherry pick ONE year to compare but that's not real. An examination over time shows that indeed wages have been doing just fine specifically in the 90's/2000'

In any case, i'm not seeing where the changes are or are not a result of friedman's economics.

Sorry but the idea of 'wealth distribution' isn't a real thing. It's what socialists use to explain things but it suggests that there's a finite amount of wealth that must be distributed. Which is not true in the slightest.

We do have some serious issues dragging on the middle class at the moment but it's not a 'wealth distribution' issue. Inflation is killing it, and there are a number of tax and claw back issues which really prevent people from getting ahead into the middlle class. But that's not because they can't EARN wealth.

But regradless - your claim was this all was a result of following Milton's works. I'm not seeing any evidence of that.


Um - from your own source:

But isn’t the average Canadian better off today?​


Yes, the average Canadian is better off than she or he was a generation ago. In 1976, average income was $51,100; by 2009, it was $59,700—an increase of 17 per cent over 33 years. These figures are in real dollars—which means converting the 1976 income figure into 2009 dollars by adjusting for inflation.

It then goes on to try to explain how that doesn't REALLY matter because ... er.... reasons. However as i said if you dig into the industrial averages and down to some pretty granular levels everybody's been doing better. Either a little better, or a lot better, but better.

So when you say people are worse off that's not accurate. BUT - for fun, lets say for a moment it was. Where are you showing that's a 'friedman' issue?



Aside from being a little untrue - it's utterly irrelevant to freidmans' work in the slightest.


Well that's not 'neo-liberal' -that's just liberal. They always spend now and worry about consequences later. THat's how we got into trouble in the early 80's and we're getting into the same trouble now. Liberals don't give a crap about what happens after the next election cycle.

But again.... that would have zero to do with anything Friedman would have said.

I'm afraid you failed even once to support your claim. First off you're in error that wages and wealth haven't increased for the middle class in 40 years. They did. Cherry picking a high just before a massive crash (which was caused by the high) is not a valid statistical tool.

But far more importantly NONE of ANYTHING you posted even began to TRY To explain how it tied into Freidman's works specifically. LIke - at all.

No offense but your examples are the kind that we occasionally see kicking around more 'socially' oriented left wing sites (usually just before demanding GBI) and they sound good but they don't stand up to deep scruitiny.

IN the last few years the challenges facing the middle class have gone up, there's no doubt. But it's got nothing to do with outsourcing jobs in the slightest, and it's got nothing to do with freidman.
I’m seeing a lot of comparing apples with bananas in all of these links. Wage growth is largely irrelevant to how much better off we are if taxes have increased more. And that has to include taxes by all levels of government , plus hidden taxes that have been upped or new ones included. BC tax increases alone have increased more than my pension has gone up, so from that perspective, extreme left governments are lowering our standard of living.
 

The_Foxer

Council Member
Aug 9, 2022
1,298
790
113
I’m seeing a lot of comparing apples with bananas in all of these links. Wage growth is largely irrelevant to how much better off we are if taxes have increased more. And that has to include taxes by all levels of government , plus hidden taxes that have been upped or new ones included. BC tax increases alone have increased more than my pension has gone up, so from that perspective, extreme left governments are lowering our standard of living.
Well obviously true, there's no arguing with that. They attempt to address that with inflation to a degree but as you say that doesn't account for taxes, which may very well be unique to any given province (or even municipality to a degree). I pay about 15 -20 cents less in fuel than people who live just 40 mins away just based on regional taxes.

And these days it gets even weirder because of other variables - i just mentioned gas but really i burn very little as i work from home, whereas someone else may be finding the higher gas prices and taxes are taking a severe bite out of their income. So industries where people are now working from home part or all of the time are facing a different situation than those who must drive every day.

It can be almost impossible to calculate - consider the GST for example, people might say 'well that wasn't around in teh 70's", but forget that it replaced higher taxes that WERE around but you never saw because they were charged to the manufacturer.

But if we're looking at the "generally speaking over all" for the working people on the whole things have been generally getting better i think.