An Angle Straight to Hell.

Reverend Blair

Council Member
Apr 3, 2004
1,238
1
38
Winnipeg
Yes, I hate free societies with boundless democracy and personal liberty too. Rah Rah dictatorships.

Actually, I'm a strong believer in democracy. The US is no where close to what you are describing though. It does worse than most western countries, including Canada, when it comes to freedom of the press and human rights abuses. The last two presidential elections have been questionable at best. The current leadership have committed war crimes.

Rah rah George Bush.
 

mattyaloo

Electoral Member
Jun 6, 2005
211
0
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Gordon J Torture said:
So basically members of the world's second biggest religion largely sympathizes with the Terrorists who killed 3500 innocent people working to provide for their families at the world trade centre?

It is not the "Terrorists" that placed those people inside such a massive and obvious Millitary target.

Want to know what placed them there? GREED.

Other than fire fighters, cops etc, how many low income blistered handed, hard working, broken backed innocent people were really in there? .. not a high percentage I assure you that.

Actually I work in the world capital markets and knew a number of people in that building you J*CK*SS. Just like any office tower in Canada, it was chock full of normal, middle income earning people, secretaries, receptionists, electricians, traders, etc who went to work that day to feed their childeren. And for some reason Bin Laden decides he's going to blow them all up to make a point. Greed and Fear eh? You missed one...the biggest cause of war: RELIGION. We need to flatten that whole region and start fresh with real court systems, real human rights, real legislative bodies. If those people can have true ownership of their lives instead of being trampled upon by theocratic regimes of fear, maybe they'll stop blowing up our moms and dads at work.
 

mrmom2

Senate Member
Mar 8, 2005
5,380
6
38
Kamloops BC
You should go read my post in Political War there Matt you might find some facts about Saddam that you did not Know because our media neglected to to tell us .Who knows you might learn something about Bush and his bullshit war :roll:
 

Gordon J Torture

Electoral Member
May 17, 2005
330
0
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people, secretaries, receptionists, electricians, traders, etc who went to work that day to feed their childeren. And for some reason Bin Laden decides he's going to blow them all up to make a point

Then, It's a very sad shame, the USA's capitalist approach to greed caused them to export so many decent paying labor jobs, all the way to the point where civillians with families feel obligated to work in obvious millitary targets.
 

mattyaloo

Electoral Member
Jun 6, 2005
211
0
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Reverend Blair said:
Yes, I hate free societies with boundless democracy and personal liberty too. Rah Rah dictatorships.

Actually, I'm a strong believer in democracy. The US is no where close to what you are describing though. It does worse than most western countries, including Canada, when it comes to freedom of the press and human rights abuses. The last two presidential elections have been questionable at best. The current leadership have committed war crimes.

Rah rah George Bush.

Canada a better democracy than the US? WHat colour is the sky in your world. We have been living in an entreched one party state for ten years. Our PM gets 38% of the vote and wins absolute power for the entire term-- NO checks and balances. Regardless of what you may think of Bush's foreign policy, the office of president DOMESTICALLY hold very LITTLE power compared to it's counterpart in Canada. Plus, the US actually ASKS its own citizens about initiatives such as gay marriage or other contentious issues, whereas our government simply shoves it all down our throats and we continue to take it. Ever heard of "Stockholm Syndrome" that is Canada's electorate in a nutshell. Democracy? Look south my friend, look south.
 

mattyaloo

Electoral Member
Jun 6, 2005
211
0
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mrmom2 said:
You should go read my post in Political War there Matt you might find some facts about Saddam that you did not Know because our media neglected to to tell us .Who knows you might learn something about Bush and his bullshit war :roll:

I know all about Saddam and where he came from, it doesn't make any difference. Foreign politics has ALWAYS made strange bedfellows. Look at the USSR and USA before nazi germany's collapse. They completely disagreed on ideology but had a common enemy, very similar to Saddam versus IRAN in the 80's. The world is more complex than you thought; perhaps you are the one who should do some learnin'
 

mattyaloo

Electoral Member
Jun 6, 2005
211
0
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Gordon J Torture said:
people, secretaries, receptionists, electricians, traders, etc who went to work that day to feed their childeren. And for some reason Bin Laden decides he's going to blow them all up to make a point

Then, It's a very sad shame, the USA's capitalist approach to greed caused them to export so many decent paying labor jobs, all the way to the point where civillians with families feel obligated to work in obvious millitary targets.


Actually it wasn't their capitalist approach, it was their altruistic need to provide decent paying labour jobs in poorer countries. :wink:
You are so out there what colour is the sky there? The USA doesn't have an "approach", it is a free country. The government of the USA didn't "put" anybody in the world trade centre. It might be more accurate to say your daddy's mutual funds did, since they own shares in companies that surely do business in the WTC. WOW! An alien listening to you guys would think the USA is like the wizard of oz, pulling levers behind the curtain to make EVERYBODY do EVERYTHING...yes the Terrorists had NO other course of action, they HAD to kill 3500 innocent people.
 

Reverend Blair

Council Member
Apr 3, 2004
1,238
1
38
Winnipeg
RE: An Angle Straight to

I didn't say it was good, I said it was better. I gave the terms that brought me to that judgement. All you've offered is uniformed foot stomping and yacking about something that hasn't existed in the US since at least the Kennedy administration, likely much further back than that.

Yell and sream all you want, Matty. The truth is that the US is failing as a democracy.
 

mattyaloo

Electoral Member
Jun 6, 2005
211
0
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The US is in no mood for this nonsense
To recap: The government of Canada has refused to participate in the American missile defence system. It refused, after setting several conditions on its participation -- no missiles on Canadian soil, no financial contribution of any kind, etc etc -- all of which were met. Had we participated, we would have been protected by the Americans, in return for nothing but our moral support. Having refused to participate, we still expect them to protect us, in return for nothing at all.
In short: The government that rejects participation in principle has already consented to it in practice, having earlier agreed to let NORAD, the binational air defence command, provide information on incoming missiles to the Americans. Of course, that’s what NORAD does now. The government’s position is that Canadians should participate in a system that tracks enemy missiles all the way until they land in a Canadian city, but not in one that has any chance of shooting them down before they get there.
In sum: We weren’t asked to do anything, the system doesn’t depend on us doing anything, and we’ve already done whatever it was the Americans needed us to do. They weren’t asking us to participate, they were offering to let us: for with participation comes consultation, and a role in our own defence. Yet having rejected the offer of consultation, in the name of our sovereignty, we now demand to be consulted, on grounds of sovereignty. And the result of these affirmations of our independence is to make us utterly dependent on another country for our defence.
It would be funny, if it were not so serious. All the Americans were really asking us to do was to say we supported them in a project that, if it works, would protect both themselves and us, and if it doesn’t would be paid for entirely by them. It was a layup, a cost-free gesture of goodwill that might repair some of the damage from our refusal to participate in Iraq. And since we are, in fact, supporting them, albeit minimally, it amounted only to acknowledging in public what we are doing in private.
But there is a rule in Ottawa: You can say you are doing something without doing it, or you can do something without saying it, but under no circumstances can you say and do the same thing at the same time. So we couldn’t even manage the insincere gesture; empty symbolism was beyond us. When our newly appointed ambassador to the United States made the mistake of conceding the reality of our participation, the Prime Minister instantly contradicted him. If there were any symbolic gestures to be made, he wanted them to be in the opposite direction.
The consequence of this foolishness may be to finally goad the Americans into questioning our clinically dependent relationship, and their own role as our enablers. The Wall Street Journal editorial reprinted nearby is an ominous sign. I had thought the Americans would simply shrug and move on, confirmed in their impression of us as a terminally feckless and unreliable ally. But it turns out there are limits to American forbearance. The President who had publicly pleaded with Canada to sign on does not like to be publicly embarrassed. Imagine that.
Already there is talk of NORAD being in jeopardy. The Secretary of State, Condoleeza Rice, has “postponed” her visit, a sure sign of displeasure. American officials are expressing bafflement and amazement at Canada’s behaviour. Previous fits of footdragging, from Bomarc to cruise missiles, had never excited this attention. Even the Iraq fiasco was not so damaging as it might have been, since it did not directly involve the defence of the continent -- the common defence to which we have been committed by treaty for more than 60 years.
But now we have achieved every Canadian’s dream -- they noticed us! -- and the results may not be quite what we would have wished. It was one thing for the Americans to protect us when there was some strategic value to the relationship. The Lester Pearson invoked today as the avatar of “internationalism” was the Lester Pearson who put nuclear warheads on Canadian missiles, whose government spent nearly 4% of GDP -- a quarter of its budget -- on defence. But today? What’s in it for them?
A good many Canadians, well represented in the Liberal party, have persisted in the delusion that we were some kind of neutral power: the first in world history to depend on somebody else to defend it. Like the Europeans, we have been infantilized by America’s protective embrace, lulled into thinking that defence itself was unnecessary. But now the Cold War is over, and a new war has begun, and the Americans are reassessing a lot of things. The days when we could count on the Americans being our allies, without us being theirs, are coming to an end.
I’ve said this is not like Iraq. But in some ways the comparison is apt. Then, as now, the Prime Minister had no real objection to Canadian participation. Then, as now, Canada did not take a principled stand, but waffled and fudged until the last possible minute. Then, as now, we were not being asked for much more than moral support, and then, as now, the matter was finally decided on the basis of internal Liberal politics and the latest poll out of Quebec.
So the damage will be redoubled, the more so for the hopes that had been invested in Mr. Martin. We could have taken our place beside the United States, Great Britain and Australia, the great alliance that fought and won two world wars and to whom literally dozens of countries owe their freedom. Instead, who are our new best friends? The Chinese, the Russians, the Germans and the French, who between them have never liberated a single country, including their own. How very sad. How unspeakably silly.
 

peapod

Hall of Fame Member
Jun 26, 2004
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pumpkin pie bungalow
That an interesting habit you got there mattyloo, making the capitals, its not really a common thing, there was another who did and does that at the board...oh dear...hang on...I gotta talk to fox mulder. 8O
 

Gordon J Torture

Electoral Member
May 17, 2005
330
0
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To recap: The government of Canada has refused to participate in the American missile defence system

Nor should we, we have no reason to beleive we will be attacked, and it would be absolutely insane to completely hand over to the U.S.A. what is left of our sovereignty.
 

mattyaloo

Electoral Member
Jun 6, 2005
211
0
16
Re: RE: An Angle Straight to

Reverend Blair said:
I didn't say it was good, I said it was better. I gave the terms that brought me to that judgement. All you've offered is uniformed foot stomping and yacking about something that hasn't existed in the US since at least the Kennedy administration, likely much further back than that.

Yell and sream all you want, Matty. The truth is that the US is failing as a democracy.

I am not screaming. And my response is that you are measuring democracy with an odd yardstick. WHat was questionable about the last presidential election...that it was close?
Speaking of freedom of the press, isn't it true that the head of the CBC is actually appointed by the PrimeMinister? How free is that?
Please give me an example of how the press in the US is not free?
In the last US election same sex marriage was on the ballot in 13 states, letting the people decide DEMOCRACTICALLY. Here in this country our resident dictator is trying to hammer it through parlaiment before the upcoming election. These are not "uninformed stomping" they are facts. Please feel free to provide the same as evidence for your position, should you be able to find any.
 

Gordon J Torture

Electoral Member
May 17, 2005
330
0
16
The government of the USA didn't "put" anybody in the world trade centre. It might be more accurate to say your daddy's mutual funds did, since they own shares in companies that surely do business in the WTC

My Daddy does not have mutual funds. My Daddy works back breaking labor in a Steel Factory that has taken about 20 years off his life, while his hard work does nothing but contribute to the excessive wealth of those at the top.
 

mattyaloo

Electoral Member
Jun 6, 2005
211
0
16
Gordon J Torture said:
To recap: The government of Canada has refused to participate in the American missile defence system

Nor should we, we have no reason to beleive we will be attacked, and it would be absolutely insane to completely hand over to the U.S.A. what is left of our sovereignty.

You're missing the point. Our little self important government is pissing off our best protector and trading partner for no good reason, then we all scream and wonder why we don't get a fair shake on softwood lumber or cattle across the border...
 

peapod

Hall of Fame Member
Jun 26, 2004
10,745
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pumpkin pie bungalow
Bottom line, around here you are going to sell anything to most of us. America has been taken over by religious zealots! HA! you have become your enemy. The joke is on you :twisted:
 

mattyaloo

Electoral Member
Jun 6, 2005
211
0
16
Gordon J Torture said:
The government of the USA didn't "put" anybody in the world trade centre. It might be more accurate to say your daddy's mutual funds did, since they own shares in companies that surely do business in the WTC

My Daddy does not have mutual funds. My Daddy works back breaking labor in a Steel Factory that has taken about 20 years off his life, while his hard work does nothing but contribute to the excessive wealth of those at the top.

Well, certainly you daddy has a pension plan with his company? You are aware pension plans invest into stocks and bonds, which trade on international markets and certainly cross the desk of the WTC? So maybe it was your daddy's pension plan that put those people into the world trade centre that got blown up by some angry religious zealouts who are nowpaying the price at the hands of GW BUSH?
 

mrmom2

Senate Member
Mar 8, 2005
5,380
6
38
Kamloops BC
Oh you know lots hey Matt what a joke if you went and read the thread you would see what I'm talking about :roll: You've bought mainstream media's sales job hook line and sinker .The jokes on you neocon :wink:
 

Gordon J Torture

Electoral Member
May 17, 2005
330
0
16
Our little self important government is pissing off our best protector

You see, that comment is so ridiculously American, I actually hear the the American national Anthem (which doesn't derserve it's name mentioned) as I type this.

That is the American way. Scare the shit out of everyone untill you get your way. Encourage complete obedience and conformity, or inflict excessive punishment.

And you wonder why the Arab world has so much fear? HA