Allergies in todays society

[Dexter Sinister]

Not sure if you are familiar with Kirlian photography but you might look it up. Natural, living substances give off an "aura" of light where as un-natural substances to not. A natural vitamin will display an aura while synthetic ascorbic acid does not.

I suggest you look it up yourself, that's not what Kirlian photography identifies. You can get Kirlian images from rocks, and living things and the chemicals they produce do not have auras. A chemical substance is a chemical substance, regardless of origin. If it's the same arrangement of atoms it'll behave exactly the same way in all respects, whether it's a product of natural plant or animal biochemistry or a chemistry lab. In no case will there be an aura that distinguishes a natural from a synthetic origin.

And Francis2004's naturopath was indeed wrong, in a certain sense. There are chemicals in the environment that nature by itself would never make, like most plastics. They're wholly synthetic, there are no natural processes that use them or break them down, so in that sense they're not natural. They're made from natural ingredients of course, they couldn't be otherwise because those are the only ingredients there are.

 

[Cliffy]

I kinda knew you would wade in on this. It has been thirty years since I read up on the subject, so my recollection may be a little fuzzy.

 

[Francis2004]

And Francis2004's naturopath was indeed wrong, in a certain sense. There are chemicals in the environment that nature by itself would never make, like most plastics. They're wholly synthetic, there are no natural processes that use them or break them down, so in that sense they're not natural. They're made from natural ingredients of course, they couldn't be otherwise because those are the only ingredients there are.

But a plastic is a composition of chemicals.. Based on synthetic ( petroleum ) is it not ?

I think this was more along the lines of a base chemical..

However as I said, I think the guy was way off base anyway..

 

[browderchick]

Way back when, our society as a whole spent most of the time outside working, playing etc. Most of todays society is indoors doing the same. Our bodies tend to not be able to have the natural defenses it once was able to achieve. Now most of our kids suffer from more allergies and more disorders than was known then.

 

[Dexter Sinister]

However as I said, I think the guy was way off base anyway..

Yeah, he was. Naturopaths generally are.

What I really think, on the subject of allergies, is that there are two factors involved. First, we're far too clean. A lot of kids these days spend their early years in a near-sterile environment, their immune systems do not encounter all the pathogens and allergens they did when I was a kid so they don't learn to cope with them at the age when they're best able to do so. Stroll down the detergents and cleansers aisle at any grocery store, how many of the products are advertised as "anti-bacterial?" Don't use those products, plain old soap and water and bleach are all anybody needs, those other products just create resistant strains of super bugs. And if your immune system's already compromised by what amounts to a lack of experience, when it encounters common stuff like ragweed pollen it badly over-reacts.

Second, there are now a whole lot of synthetic substances in our environment that nothing is evolved to cope with, like plastics and pesticides. There are no bacteria that break them down or use them in metabolism, they persist for decades and do harm far beyond their design parameters. DDT is the classic example, a superlatively effective insecticide, but it persists for years and concentrates up the food chain, causing metabolic disturbances in predators like birds.

We're not dirty enough, and we've crapped up our environment with toxins nothing is equipped to deal with. A large oversimplification, I grant you, but I do think that's the essence of it.

 

[countryboy]

Yeah, he was. Naturopaths generally are.

What I really think, on the subject of allergies, is that there are two factors involved. First, we're far too clean. A lot of kids these days spend their early years in a near-sterile environment, their immune systems do not encounter all the pathogens and allergens they did when I was a kid so they don't learn to cope with them at the age when they're best able to do so. Stroll down the detergents and cleansers aisle at any grocery store, how many of the products are advertised as "anti-bacterial?" Don't use those products, plain old soap and water and bleach are all anybody needs, those other products just create resistant strains of super bugs. And if your immune system's already compromised by what amounts to a lack of experience, when it encounters common stuff like ragweed pollen it badly over-reacts.

Second, there are now a whole lot of synthetic substances in our environment that nothing is evolved to cope with, like plastics and pesticides. There are no bacteria that break them down or use them in metabolism, they persist for decades and do harm far beyond their design parameters. DDT is the classic example, a superlatively effective insecticide, but it persists for years and concentrates up the food chain, causing metabolic disturbances in predators like birds.

We're not dirty enough, and we've crapped up our environment with toxins nothing is equipped to deal with. A large oversimplification, I grant you, but I do think that's the essence of it.

Dex, what about the widespread use of antibiotics these days? Any possibility that may be contributing to the problem? I'm thinking not only of prescriptions, but also in the food, water, etc. I'm no expert on the subject, but I can't help thinking there might be a connection there...?

 

[talloola]

Yeah, he was. Naturopaths
We're not dirty enough, and we've crapped up our environment with toxins nothing is equipped to deal with. A large oversimplification, I grant you, but I do think that's the essence of it.

Oh I love it when you talk 'dirty'. lol seriously though,
if that's possible now,
that is very true, we are creatures of this earth, and
we can interact with the natural products it has on it,
and our bodies will adjust and resist and blend in.
I avoid the anti-bacterial labels like the plague, just
keep things clean, and get your hands dirty once in awhile,
it feels good, and stop sterlizing yourselves to death.

 

[Dexter Sinister]

Dex, what about the widespread use of antibiotics these days? Any possibility that may be contributing to the problem? I'm thinking not only of prescriptions, but also in the food, water, etc. I'm no expert on the subject, but I can't help thinking there might be a connection there...?

Absolutely there's a connection. I'm no expert either, I'm just a retired telecommunications engineer, but I do understand how evolution works. Over-use of antibiotics creates resistant bacterial strains, there's no doubt about that at all and evolutionary theory clearly predicts it. We've inadvertently created bacterial strains that nature by itself would never have produced, by trying to poison them with things nature by itself would never have produced. We tried for a 100% kill, which evolutionary theory indicates isn't possible. Nature's a satisfier, not a maximizer, all it requires is that enough creatures survive to perpetuate a species, and that clearly doesn't mean all of them. We try for all of them, but it can't be done, some people are going to die prematurely, which in nature's terms means without reproducing. Nature doesn't care about that, evolution is brutal and utterly unsentimental: you can't cut it, you die.

 

[Dexter Sinister]

Oh I love it when you talk 'dirty .

Ooh baby... :lol:

 

[countryboy]

Absolutely there's a connection. I'm no expert either, I'm just a retired telecommunications engineer, but I do understand how evolution works. Over-use of antibiotics creates resistant bacterial strains, there's no doubt about that at all and evolutionary theory clearly predicts it. We've inadvertently created bacterial strains that nature by itself would never have produced, by trying to poison them with things nature by itself would never have produced. We tried for a 100% kill, which evolutionary theory indicates isn't possible. Nature's a satisfier, not a maximizer, all it requires is that enough creatures survive to perpetuate a species, and that clearly doesn't mean all of them. We try for all of them, but it can't be done, some people are going to die prematurely, which in nature's terms means without reproducing. Nature doesn't care about that, evolution is brutal and utterly unsentimental: you can't cut it, you die.

Well, a highly sensible answer! I have read it twice and I think I understand it. Bottom line...are we trying to fight nature? And losing? (to a degree)...

 

[VanIsle]

Yeah, he was. Naturopaths generally are.

What I really think, on the subject of allergies, is that there are two factors involved. First, we're far too clean. A lot of kids these days spend their early years in a near-sterile environment, their immune systems do not encounter all the pathogens and allergens they did when I was a kid so they don't learn to cope with them at the age when they're best able to do so. Stroll down the detergents and cleansers aisle at any grocery store, how many of the products are advertised as "anti-bacterial?" Don't use those products, plain old soap and water and bleach are all anybody needs, those other products just create resistant strains of super bugs. And if your immune system's already compromised by what amounts to a lack of experience, when it encounters common stuff like ragweed pollen it badly over-reacts.

Second, there are now a whole lot of synthetic substances in our environment that nothing is evolved to cope with, like plastics and pesticides. There are no bacteria that break them down or use them in metabolism, they persist for decades and do harm far beyond their design parameters. DDT is the classic example, a superlatively effective insecticide, but it persists for years and concentrates up the food chain, causing metabolic disturbances in predators like birds.

We're not dirty enough, and we've crapped up our environment with toxins nothing is equipped to deal with. A large oversimplification, I grant you, but I do think that's the essence of it.

I actually don't know of a soap that is not anti-bacterial. My dish soap is anti - bac. My bath soap may not be - it's goat's milk soap. I'd have to read the label. All the bottles of "soft soap" containers we all use on our bathroom counters are anti-bacterial. People buy special cleansers for washing their vegetables with! My own son washes the outside of a cantaloupe with soapy water before he cuts it. On the other hand, my daughter-in-law grew up on a farm and yet now she is allergic to dust!
What about food allergies? Francis has a son allergic to nuts. We don't grow up around nuts here (well - not the kind you eat anyway). I'm allergic to prawns and from what I've heard, fish itself which is supposed to be so good for us, is the food most people are allergic to. My cantaloupe washing son grew up playing baseball and indoor and outdoor volleyball yet he is allergic to every grass there is. I'm not sure that exposure is the answer either. I do agree that we are too clean but I don't know how to make myself stop being that way. I'm not sure I want to.

 

[talloola]

Ooh baby... :lol:

Oh dear, I can't think, what is this topic? !!!!!lol

 

[VanIsle]

Oh dear, I can't think, what is this topic? !!!!!lol

Getting too excited there Talloola! lol You should be able to identify your topic in the browser line at the top of the screen.

 

[talloola]

Getting too excited there Talloola! lol You should be able to identify your topic in the browser line at the top of the screen.

thanks, just needed a cold shower lol

 

[VanIsle]

You just gave me a good chuckle. Good to have a laugh before turning in for the night.

 

[Dexter Sinister]

Oh dear, I can't think, what is this topic? !!!!!lol

Ah, you're such a delight. Smart, sensible, horny... what more could anyone want? :smile: Wish I knew you in real life, I'm sure we'd be great friends. Or something.

 

[talloola]

Ah, you're such a delight. Smart, sensible, horny... what more could anyone want? :smile: Wish I knew you in real life, I'm sure we'd be great friends. Or something.

yeah

 

[Francis2004]

Yeah, he was. Naturopaths generally are.

What I really think, on the subject of allergies, is that there are two factors involved. First, we're far too clean. A lot of kids these days spend their early years in a near-sterile environment, their immune systems do not encounter all the pathogens and allergens they did when I was a kid so they don't learn to cope with them at the age when they're best able to do so. Stroll down the detergents and cleansers aisle at any grocery store, how many of the products are advertised as "anti-bacterial?" Don't use those products, plain old soap and water and bleach are all anybody needs, those other products just create resistant strains of super bugs. And if your immune system's already compromised by what amounts to a lack of experience, when it encounters common stuff like ragweed pollen it badly over-reacts.

Second, there are now a whole lot of synthetic substances in our environment that nothing is evolved to cope with, like plastics and pesticides. There are no bacteria that break them down or use them in metabolism, they persist for decades and do harm far beyond their design parameters. DDT is the classic example, a superlatively effective insecticide, but it persists for years and concentrates up the food chain, causing metabolic disturbances in predators like birds.

We're not dirty enough, and we've crapped up our environment with toxins nothing is equipped to deal with. A large oversimplification, I grant you, but I do think that's the essence of it.

I always believed my mother smoking heavily had a lot more to do with many of my allergies as well as many of my siblings then anything else.. Mom didn't drink but man could she smoke..

If I look back at many of my friends ( I am 48 ) who had similar allergies, many of their parents were as bad smokers as mine.. You could cut the air with a knife in any of those houses.. While this did not mean any house with clouds would have kids with allergies, it would certainly not help..

 

[VanIsle]

I always believed my mother smoking heavily had a lot more to do with many of my allergies as well as many of my siblings then anything else.. Mom didn't drink but man could she smoke..

If I look back at many of my friends ( I am 48 ) who had similar allergies, many of their parents were as bad smokers as mine.. You could cut the air with a knife in any of those houses.. While this did not mean any house with clouds would have kids with allergies, it would certainly not help..

How do you think that would contribute to allergies Francis? I could look back on my own life with that. My Mom was also a heavy smoker and I was a smoker. I have some allergies and my kids have some allergies. My brother and his wife have never been smokers yet their son has asthma and allergies. He came for a visit on Boxing Day and in the door less than 2 min. he asked if I had any antihistamines (he's a doctor). I don't smoke and no one smokes in my house and we don't have any pets. He said it wasn't from here - his parents have 3 cats. My Mom thought that allergies were a bit of a fad thing. They were a rather new thing (she died in 1975 so the knowledge of them was new to her) - meaning people didn't talk about them much then. I believe I probably had real allergy problems that led up to the panic anxiety because I had so much trouble breathing as a kid. We did always have a house full of pets and as I said - my Mom too was a heavy smoker (as were her sisters and brothers who were often at our house).
My point though was that I know your son has asthma along with nut allergies and I am comparing that to my brother who has a son with asthma and no smoking in the house.

 

[Francis2004]

How do you think that would contribute to allergies Francis? I could look back on my own life with that. My Mom was also a heavy smoker and I was a smoker. I have some allergies and my kids have some allergies. My brother and his wife have never been smokers yet their son has asthma and allergies. He came for a visit on Boxing Day and in the door less than 2 min. he asked if I had any antihistamines (he's a doctor). I don't smoke and no one smokes in my house and we don't have any pets. He said it wasn't from here - his parents have 3 cats. My Mom thought that allergies were a bit of a fad thing. They were a rather new thing (she died in 1975 so the knowledge of them was new to her) - meaning people didn't talk about them much then. I believe I probably had real allergy problems that led up to the panic anxiety because I had so much trouble breathing as a kid. We did always have a house full of pets and as I said - my Mom too was a heavy smoker (as were her sisters and brothers who were often at our house).
My point though was that I know your son has asthma along with nut allergies and I am comparing that to my brother who has a son with asthma and no smoking in the house.

Not quite sure VanIsle, but perhaps the Tobacco or smoking impedes our immune system.

First allergies are not a fad.. I only wish they were..

Yes my son has nut allergies, but from what I have read there are many theories on that.. From the mother eating nuts during pregnancy to any possibility.. He also has all the same standard allergies I do ( cat, grass, ragweeds ), making it a hereditary trait.

What is strange however, is the fact both my parents, as kids, grew up on farms.. Neither had as kids, Hay, Ragweed or animal allergies.. My mother did show some light signs of hay fever late in life but was never allergic to animals.. My Dad was never allergic to anything..

Also as reference Tobacco is a ragweed and by far my worse allergy..