Abortion
- Thread starter Canadian Dragon
- Start date
gerryh said:
No, what Mediana wrote was an emotionally charged attack on Cosmo's character, and irrelevant to this discussion.
However, if pro-lifers need to cling to the "selfishness" line, then it is equally true that they themselves are selfish for believing that they can guide society by their moral compass. This is a free society, and whether you like it or not, it will remain so...and women will be free to have abortions if that is what they choose...and the pro-lifers will be free to suck it up and find something else to bitch about...
Re: RE: Abortion
None of them should be full, because gerry has graciously offered to adopt all children born from women forced to give birth against their will...
gerryh said:
None of them should be full, because gerry has graciously offered to adopt all children born from women forced to give birth against their will...
I was not merely referring to Canada. I am talking globally. Before I left Canada I knew of several couples seeking to adopt outside of Canada because it was easier. Down here I have found the same thing. If you wish I'll google something up.
Okay in Canada
http://canadaswaitingkids.ca
& in the US
http://naic.acf.hhs.gov/profess/admin/stats/index.cfm
Okay in Canada
http://canadaswaitingkids.ca
& in the US
http://naic.acf.hhs.gov/profess/admin/stats/index.cfm
Zen,
Firstly, we're talking about Canada and I think we can agree there aren't any overflowing orphanages here.
Secondly, the reason why there are orphanages in other countries is because of the lack of resources or wars in those other countries. If the rich countries would share(again, goes against our new Holy Trinity of Me, Myself and I) we would have more than enough food and shelter for every family on this planet. But instead we force these people to live in misery and then blame them for having children. What an attitude!!
As for the pictures, I agree that they are very hard to look at and they are designed to be exactly that. Let me guess Cosmo, Pea, Zen, ... are you in favour of the animal rights people videotaping the annual seal-hunt?? Why are you in favour of those pictures but against the pro-life pictures?? Please explain to me the difference, I'd love to know the justification for showing the killing of an animal but not the killing of a child to put the issue "in the face" of the viewers.
As for the statistics of deaths from illegal or legal abortions, both can be questioned but there are many official sites that I've already listed that have substantiated the claim that more woman die today from abortions than died from "back alley" abortions.
Oh, and Zen, who are you referring to when you talk about anti-choice. Unless you want the pro-life side to start referring to the pro-abortion side as anti-life, please refer to your opponents as pro-life.
Firstly, we're talking about Canada and I think we can agree there aren't any overflowing orphanages here.
Secondly, the reason why there are orphanages in other countries is because of the lack of resources or wars in those other countries. If the rich countries would share(again, goes against our new Holy Trinity of Me, Myself and I) we would have more than enough food and shelter for every family on this planet. But instead we force these people to live in misery and then blame them for having children. What an attitude!!
As for the pictures, I agree that they are very hard to look at and they are designed to be exactly that. Let me guess Cosmo, Pea, Zen, ... are you in favour of the animal rights people videotaping the annual seal-hunt?? Why are you in favour of those pictures but against the pro-life pictures?? Please explain to me the difference, I'd love to know the justification for showing the killing of an animal but not the killing of a child to put the issue "in the face" of the viewers.
As for the statistics of deaths from illegal or legal abortions, both can be questioned but there are many official sites that I've already listed that have substantiated the claim that more woman die today from abortions than died from "back alley" abortions.
Oh, and Zen, who are you referring to when you talk about anti-choice. Unless you want the pro-life side to start referring to the pro-abortion side as anti-life, please refer to your opponents as pro-life.
RB,
Yes, I know about those statistics. It is a shame that there are so many children that are in foster care but in the fast number of cases, these children do not want to be adopted. They still regularly see their parents and still have a bond with them.
However, it would be interesting to see the statistics regarding the foster families. I wonder what percentage of the foster families are "regular church/mosque/synogogue/etc goers". I don't have any numbers but from my experience the fact majority are religious.
I remember having foster children in our home when I was a kid. That was very difficult. These kids are pretty screwed up and from a very young age. I remember a couple of young kids(8 and 5) first thing they did was drink all of the vanilla extract and rubbing alcohol in the house. Then started to break all of the toys because "rich kids don't need toys". We weren't rich by any stretch of imagination but I guess their perception was that any foster family was "rich". We had them for a while and tried to integrate them into our family but whenever their mother or father would visit the kids would revert right back to the "old" ways.
Yes, I know about those statistics. It is a shame that there are so many children that are in foster care but in the fast number of cases, these children do not want to be adopted. They still regularly see their parents and still have a bond with them.
However, it would be interesting to see the statistics regarding the foster families. I wonder what percentage of the foster families are "regular church/mosque/synogogue/etc goers". I don't have any numbers but from my experience the fact majority are religious.
I remember having foster children in our home when I was a kid. That was very difficult. These kids are pretty screwed up and from a very young age. I remember a couple of young kids(8 and 5) first thing they did was drink all of the vanilla extract and rubbing alcohol in the house. Then started to break all of the toys because "rich kids don't need toys". We weren't rich by any stretch of imagination but I guess their perception was that any foster family was "rich". We had them for a while and tried to integrate them into our family but whenever their mother or father would visit the kids would revert right back to the "old" ways.
Mediana said:
Ah, Mediana ... wondered where you'd crawled off to.
You have no idea of my nature. You do not know me and while you have every right to your assumptions I suggest they only serve to display your ignorance when voiced without sufficient substantiation.
Anyone who claims self-sacrifice is deluding themselves. There is ALWAYS a payoff in absolutely everything we do, even if it is the luxury of simply claiming higher moral ground. I'm a pragmatist, Mediana. While I do not dispute the benefit of acts of charity and kindness, I also see the underlying self-serving motivation of even the most giving soul. It does not in any way diminish the goodness of the acts, though.
If your comments were intended to insult me, you have failed. I simply considered the source. While I enjoy a good debate, the truth is your opinion of me is insignficant. If you have anything intelligent to say on the topic, I welcome your views. If character assassination is your goal, I'm afraid you are ill equipped to accomplish your agenda.
tibear do you also believe in capital punishment. Do you believe that capital pushishment is justified.
RB,
There is a difference between having the parental rights terminated (meaning they have no say in how the child is raised) and having no contact with the children. As I stated in my earlier posts, in alot of cases, the parents of the children put into foster care in our home had their parental rights terminated. HOWEVER, they still had the right to have visitation with their children. Perhaps is because the children were native and they wanted to ensure that the children not lose control with their heritage.(Maybe, but not sure.)
Pea,
I don't believe in capital punishment. I'm glad we have a law in place which would prevent me from killing anyone who would rape, molest or harm anyone in my family. I would certainly want to kill them but morally glad that I would be prevented from doing so.
There is a difference between having the parental rights terminated (meaning they have no say in how the child is raised) and having no contact with the children. As I stated in my earlier posts, in alot of cases, the parents of the children put into foster care in our home had their parental rights terminated. HOWEVER, they still had the right to have visitation with their children. Perhaps is because the children were native and they wanted to ensure that the children not lose control with their heritage.(Maybe, but not sure.)
Pea,
I don't believe in capital punishment. I'm glad we have a law in place which would prevent me from killing anyone who would rape, molest or harm anyone in my family. I would certainly want to kill them but morally glad that I would be prevented from doing so.
I assumed that you'd read the link that was supplied.
Those 20,000 who have had their parental rights terminated are up for adoption. The vast majority of them will not be adopted though. They will bounce from foster home to foster home and institution to institution.
Those 20,000 who have had their parental rights terminated are up for adoption. The vast majority of them will not be adopted though. They will bounce from foster home to foster home and institution to institution.
RB,
So how many are you taking in??? What about the others in this forum who don't have children, "because the world is already overpopulated and there is enough starving children." How many children are you guys going to sign up for???
If you want I can post a whole whack of websites of families that adopt all kinds of "special" children. BTW, the vast majority of these families are religious and see every child as a gift. However some gifts are noisier and harder to handle than others.
So how many are you taking in??? What about the others in this forum who don't have children, "because the world is already overpopulated and there is enough starving children." How many children are you guys going to sign up for???
If you want I can post a whole whack of websites of families that adopt all kinds of "special" children. BTW, the vast majority of these families are religious and see every child as a gift. However some gifts are noisier and harder to handle than others.
Re: RE: Abortion
Do you have any links for these stats?
Also, I'm curious, do you know why there are so many children in foster care and orphanages? My guess it would be because their parents didn't want them /couldn't care for them. (Of course, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong). So EVEN IF a woman would be willing to give the child up for adoption, what kind of security does she have that the child will 1) be adopted at all and 2) if adopted go to a good family?
You had another point earlier on (I think it was you, I can't find the post now) that the orphans in other countries (African countries etc) are due to the have countries not giving to the have not countries. I grant you that. But the fact remains there are MILLIONS of babies out there that could be adopted, and yet prolifers think that adding even more unwanted children to this is a good idea.
Someone also had another post about the kids in the current system (foster kids) being difficult children with problems. This is only a guess, but they probably have problems because they weren't wanted. I'm sure you see where I"m going with that.
Finally, tibear, I have been following your posts both in this thread and the gay marriage thread, and I'm impressed with your ability to continue the fight even though you have a great deal of opposition, and that you can keep it up without resorting to nastiness. Even though I highly disagree with your conservative views, I can respect your ability to voice them.
tibear said:
Do you have any links for these stats?
Also, I'm curious, do you know why there are so many children in foster care and orphanages? My guess it would be because their parents didn't want them /couldn't care for them. (Of course, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong). So EVEN IF a woman would be willing to give the child up for adoption, what kind of security does she have that the child will 1) be adopted at all and 2) if adopted go to a good family?
You had another point earlier on (I think it was you, I can't find the post now) that the orphans in other countries (African countries etc) are due to the have countries not giving to the have not countries. I grant you that. But the fact remains there are MILLIONS of babies out there that could be adopted, and yet prolifers think that adding even more unwanted children to this is a good idea.
Someone also had another post about the kids in the current system (foster kids) being difficult children with problems. This is only a guess, but they probably have problems because they weren't wanted. I'm sure you see where I"m going with that.
Finally, tibear, I have been following your posts both in this thread and the gay marriage thread, and I'm impressed with your ability to continue the fight even though you have a great deal of opposition, and that you can keep it up without resorting to nastiness. Even though I highly disagree with your conservative views, I can respect your ability to voice them.
I would call this more of a threat than the one posted earlier.
I guess the only choice the "pro-choicers" believe in is the one the want to shove down everyones throat. Note that "planned parenthood" doesn't offer anything if the woman decides to keep the baby. You only get support if you want to kill your baby.
http://www.wprc.org/17.86.0.0.1.0.phtml
I guess the only choice the "pro-choicers" believe in is the one the want to shove down everyones throat. Note that "planned parenthood" doesn't offer anything if the woman decides to keep the baby. You only get support if you want to kill your baby.
http://www.wprc.org/17.86.0.0.1.0.phtml