A guide for guidance: how to choose your doctrine

[eanassir]

So what you are saying is Islam promotes abuse of females. What a filthy religion not even worthy of dogs.

No abuse of females; all respect, honor and protection to females. The filthy is the atheism, and the disbeliever is worse than the cattle according to the Quran.

((We have spread out, for Hell, a large number of the genie-kind [: demons] and of the man-kind;
they have hearts but understand not with them; they have eyes but see not with them; they have ears but hear not with them;

they are like cattle; indeed, they rather go more astray! Such are the heedless [of Our signs of revelation.]))

The above ((between brackets)) is the explanation of the Quranic aya 7: 179

وَلَقَدْ ذَرَأْنَا لِجَهَنَّمَ كَثِيرًا مِّنَ الْجِنِّ وَالإِنسِ لَهُمْ قُلُوبٌ لاَّ يَفْقَهُونَ بِهَا وَلَهُمْ أَعْيُنٌ لاَّ يُبْصِرُونَ بِهَا وَلَهُمْ آذَانٌ لاَّ يَسْمَعُونَ بِهَا أُوْلَئِكَ كَالأَنْعَامِ بَلْ هُمْ أَضَلُّ أُوْلَئِكَ هُمُ الْغَافِلُونَ​

​

http://www.quran-ayat.com/

 

[eanassir]

Well, at least you don't condone rape or punishing women for being victimized.

What if she wants sex and her husband doesn't?

The rights of the woman is preserved, but man has a grade of authority above the woman in being the leader of the family by the special criteria of each of them, and the man is responsible to expend on his family out of his wealth.

And the woman has to obey her husband and be loyal to him and protect his honor, as has he in the same manner.

((And [wives] have rights similar to those [of husbands] over them accordingly; but the men have an authority over them. God is All-Mighty [and] Wise.))

The above ((between brackets)) is the explanation of the Quranic aya 2: 228​

وَلَهُنَّ مِثْلُ الَّذِي عَلَيْهِنَّ بِالْمَعْرُوفِ وَلِلرِّجَالِ عَلَيْهِنَّ دَرَجَةٌ وَاللّهُ عَزِيزٌ حَكُيمٌ​

http://www.quran-ayat.com/

 

[talloola]

You are very aware that both gilbert and I are atheists,
yet you would tell us on this forum that we are filthy
and worse than cattle.

I, as an atheist have more manners and thoughtfullness
in my little finger than you have in all of your body.

I would never call you such a name, it is disgusting.
It just proves to me once again, that religion and god
have nothing to do with the 'value' of the human being,
and you have just proven it.

Your words are hurtful, and even though you would hide
behind the fact that is comes from your quran, you seemed
proud to throw them out there for us to read.

Even after your name calling, I still respect your right
to believe whatever you choose, and you should do the
same for me, and I would never stoop to the level you have.

 

[Cliffy]

The rights of the woman is preserved, but man has a grade of authority above the woman in being the leader of the family by the special criteria of each of them, and the man is responsible to expend on his family out of his wealth.

And the woman has to obey her husband and be loyal to him and protect his honor, as has he in the same manner.

((And [wives] have rights similar to those [of husbands] over them accordingly; but the men have an authority over them. God is All-Mighty [and] Wise.))

The above ((between brackets)) is the explanation of the Quranic aya 2: 228​

وَلَهُنَّ مِثْلُ الَّذِي عَلَيْهِنَّ بِالْمَعْرُوفِ وَلِلرِّجَالِ عَلَيْهِنَّ دَرَجَةٌ وَاللّهُ عَزِيزٌ حَكُيمٌ​

http://www.quran-ayat.com/

You continue to dig yourself deeper into the hole of your ignorance. You are pedaling outdated nonsense from an outdated religion that has no place in this day and age. This is the age of enlightenment and you would take us back into the dark ages with your perverse beliefs about the Creator as a violent psychopath. Not going to fly over here where people tend to be a little more enlightened than where ever you hang out.

 

[china]

eanassir

Many doctrines are now available, but the truth is only one doctrine.

......and one doctrine is a set of many believes .


When you speak of a path to truth, it implies that truth, this living reality, is not in the present, but somewhere in the distance, somewhere in the future.
Now to me, truth is fulfillment, and to fulfillment there can be no path.
So it seems, to me at least, that the first illusion in which you are caught
is this desire for assurance,
this desire for certainty, this inquiry after a path, a way,
a mode of living whereby you can attain the desired goal, which is truth.

Your conviction that truth exists only in the distant future implies imitation.
When you inquire what truth is, you are really asking to be told the path which leads to truth.
Then you want to know which system to follow, which mode, which discipline,
to help you on the way to truth.
But to me there is no path to truth;
truth is not to be understood through any system, through any path.
A path implies a goal, a static end, and therefore a conditioning of the mind and the heart
by that end, which necessarily demands discipline, control, acquisitiveness.

This discipline, this control, becomes a burden; it robs you of freedom and conditions your action in daily life.
Inquiry after truth implies a goal, a static end, which you are seeking.
And that you are seeking a goal shows that your mind is searching for assurance, certainty.
To attain this certainty, mind desires a path, a system, a method which it can follow, and this assurance you think to find by conditioning mind and heart through self-discipline, self-control, suppression.
But truth is a reality that cannot be understood by following any path.
Truth is not a conditioning, a shaping of the mind and heart, but a constant fulfillment,
a fulfillment in action.
That you inquire after truth implies that you believe in a path to truth,
and this is the first illusion in which you are caught.
J. Krishnamurti , 2nd January, 1934

 

[SirJosephPorter]

No abuse of females; all respect, honor and protection to females. The filthy is the atheism, and the disbeliever is worse than the cattle according to the Quran.

No abuse of females? Well, let me enlighten you, eanassir. In this country, when a man beats a woman, when a husband beats his wife (whatever the reason, whatever the provocation), we call it abuse.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

And the woman has to obey her husband and be loyal to him and protect his honor, as has he in the same manner.

Quite so. And if the woman does not obey her husband, does not keep that honour, there is always the honour killing, a time honored tradition of Islam.

But I am really astounded. Do you really expect to generate sympathy for Islam, generate converts for Islam by badmouthing women like this?

 

[Jamirez]

There are 3 types of Muslims:

1. They think their Religion and Quran is the best, but they respect and learn the truth from other Religions as well.

2. They think their Religion and Quran is the best and they don't respect other religions.

3. They think their Religion and Quran is the best, and they Force other people to become muslim. How many wars and invasions had happened in the name of Islam? (Google yourself)

Which type are you ennasir?

 

[YukonJack]

Responding to post #48:

Sorry, Jamirez, you give WAYYYY too much credit, where it is absolutely NOT due.

You described the ONLY true Muslim in 3. in your post

 

[countryboy]

No abuse of females; all respect, honor and protection to females. The filthy is the atheism, and the disbeliever is worse than the cattle according to the Quran.

The cattle rights movement folks will get you for that. (There must be such a movement out there somewhere, right?) :lol:

 

[eanassir]

The wonders of the heavens and the earth

The idolaters of Mecca asked of Prophet Mohammed to produce an objective miracle like the staff of Moses that became a serpent, so that they might then believe; therefore this aya 10: 101 was revealed:​

قُلِ انظُرُواْ مَاذَا فِي السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالأَرْضِ وَمَا تُغْنِي الآيَاتُ وَالنُّذُرُ عَن قَوْمٍ لاَّ يُؤْمِنُونَ​

The explanation:
(Say [O Mohammed to those who have demanded a miracle from you]:

"Look at [the wonders] that are in the heavens and the earth!

But neither miracles nor warners avail a people who do not believe [in God and in His messenger.]")


>> (Look at [the wonders] that are in the heavens and the earth!) means: See instead of demanding any miracle, the marvels and wonders in the heavens and the earth: or the planets including the earth. Then ask yourselves: is it your idols that created all this or is it God Almighty?

Such wonders will be the best proof and evidence of God's might and that He is One without associate.

>> (But neither miracles nor warners avail a people who do not believe [in God and in His messenger.]")

It means: If God gives to His apostle a miracle, and his people does not believe, then they will be punished and exterminated; and in such instance neither the apostle who warned them, nor the miracle itself will avail them against God's punishment.

​

http://www.quran-ayat.com/

 

[L Gilbert]

No abuse of females; all respect, honor and protection to females. The filthy is the atheism, and the disbeliever is worse than the cattle according to the Quran.

((We have spread out, for Hell, a large number of the genie-kind [: demons] and of the man-kind;
they have hearts but understand not with them; they have eyes but see not with them; they have ears but hear not with them;

they are like cattle; indeed, they rather go more astray! Such are the heedless [of Our signs of revelation.]))

The above ((between brackets)) is the explanation of the Quranic aya 7: 179

وَلَقَدْ ذَرَأْنَا لِجَهَنَّمَ كَثِيرًا مِّنَ الْجِنِّ وَالإِنسِ لَهُمْ قُلُوبٌ لاَّ يَفْقَهُونَ بِهَا وَلَهُمْ أَعْيُنٌ لاَّ يُبْصِرُونَ بِهَا وَلَهُمْ آذَانٌ لاَّ يَسْمَعُونَ بِهَا أُوْلَئِكَ كَالأَنْعَامِ بَلْ هُمْ أَضَلُّ أُوْلَئِكَ هُمُ الْغَافِلُونَ​

http://www.quran-ayat.com/

Baloney. The religion promotes abuse of women, the faith of Islam doesn't. Unfortunately, most Muslims can't tell the difference between their religion and their faith, so the abuse is perfectly fine in their view. It's a filthy, despicable religion that considers females to be less human than males. Not only that, I'd venture a bet that most atheists are a lot more respecting towards women than most Muslims.

 

[L Gilbert]

The rights of the woman is preserved, but man has a grade of authority above the woman in being the leader of the family by the special criteria of each of them, and the man is responsible to expend on his family out of his wealth.

And the woman has to obey her husband and be loyal to him and protect his honor, as has he in the same manner.

((And [wives] have rights similar to those [of husbands] over them accordingly; but the men have an authority over them. God is All-Mighty [and] Wise.))

The above ((between brackets)) is the explanation of the Quranic aya 2: 228​

وَلَهُنَّ مِثْلُ الَّذِي عَلَيْهِنَّ بِالْمَعْرُوفِ وَلِلرِّجَالِ عَلَيْهِنَّ دَرَجَةٌ وَاللّهُ عَزِيزٌ حَكُيمٌ​

http://www.quran-ayat.com/

Exactly. So it is perfectly fine for a man to beat his wife into having sex and not okay for the woman to expect the husband to have sex let alone beat him into having sex. That's the epitome of hypocracy.
Women are possessions and not "worthy" to be as human as men, according to this ludicrous religion.

 

[L Gilbert]

The wonders of the heavens and the earth

The idolaters of Mecca asked of Prophet Mohammed to produce an objective miracle like the staff of Moses that became a serpent, so that they might then believe; therefore this aya 10: 101 was revealed:​

قُلِ انظُرُواْ مَاذَا فِي السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالأَرْضِ وَمَا تُغْنِي الآيَاتُ وَالنُّذُرُ عَن قَوْمٍ لاَّ يُؤْمِنُونَ​

The explanation:
(Say [O Mohammed to those who have demanded a miracle from you]:

"Look at [the wonders] that are in the heavens and the earth!

.........​

Your prophet wouldn't produce a "miracle" simply because he couldn't. There is nothing mystical or supernatural about "miracles". Things happen in the universe and most of the time we can explain it. If we can't explain it, it is because we haven't studied it enough. There is no sensible reason to take it for granted that we should think some spook made it happen. That's just pure superstition.​

 

[eanassir]

eanassir

......and one doctrine is a set of many believes .


When you speak of a path to truth, it implies that truth, this living reality, is not in the present, but somewhere in the distance, somewhere in the future.
Now to me, truth is fulfillment, and to fulfillment there can be no path.
So it seems, to me at least, that the first illusion in which you are caught
is this desire for assurance,
this desire for certainty, this inquiry after a path, a way,
a mode of living whereby you can attain the desired goal, which is truth.

Your conviction that truth exists only in the distant future implies imitation.
When you inquire what truth is, you are really asking to be told the path which leads to truth.
Then you want to know which system to follow, which mode, which discipline,
to help you on the way to truth.
But to me there is no path to truth;
truth is not to be understood through any system, through any path.
A path implies a goal, a static end, and therefore a conditioning of the mind and the heart
by that end, which necessarily demands discipline, control, acquisitiveness.

This discipline, this control, becomes a burden; it robs you of freedom and conditions your action in daily life.
Inquiry after truth implies a goal, a static end, which you are seeking.
And that you are seeking a goal shows that your mind is searching for assurance, certainty.
To attain this certainty, mind desires a path, a system, a method which it can follow, and this assurance you think to find by conditioning mind and heart through self-discipline, self-control, suppression.
But truth is a reality that cannot be understood by following any path.
Truth is not a conditioning, a shaping of the mind and heart, but a constant fulfillment,
a fulfillment in action.
That you inquire after truth implies that you believe in a path to truth,
and this is the first illusion in which you are caught.
J. Krishnamurti , 2nd January, 1934

I respect your words.
But the fulfillment of the truth is other than the truth itself: i.e. the truth is other than its fulfillment.
And I see your words mixed with the words of Krishnamurti!
It is better to give examples to explain your words.
Do you mean practicing the truth or fulfillment of the truth? What fulfillment? And what truth in the past and the future; because the truth is the truth whether in the past, or in the future?

Once Prophet Mohammed gave an example: he drew one straight line on the earth, and said: "This is the "standard and straight path" [: the religion of the Islam, the devotion to God alone which will lead to the path to Paradise in the afterlife.]

Then he drew several other lines, and said: "These are the different other religions and divisions."

Afterwards, he recited the aya 6: 153
وَأَنَّ هَذَا صِرَاطِي مُسْتَقِيمًا فَاتَّبِعُوهُ وَلاَ تَتَّبِعُواْ السُّبُلَ فَتَفَرَّقَ بِكُمْ عَن سَبِيلِهِ ذَلِكُمْ وَصَّاكُم بِهِ لَعَلَّكُمْ تَتَّقُونَ
The explanation:
(Surely, this [religion of the Islam] is My 'standard' way; therefore do you [men] follow it,

but follow not other ways [in the future], lest you be parted from His way [because of the plighting and designing of the associaters of the other ways.]

This [warning] He has commanded you with; haply you will ward off [their plights and wickedness.])

 

[eanassir]

Your prophet wouldn't produce a "miracle" simply because he couldn't. There is nothing mystical or supernatural about "miracles". Things happen in the universe and most of the time we can explain it. If we can't explain it, it is because we haven't studied it enough. There is no sensible reason to take it for granted that we should think some spook made it happen. That's just pure superstition.[/left]

What haughty you are; and you insist on falsehood.

God gave to many prophets before Mohammed, many miracles; but they denied them and said all this is only some sort of magic and illusion; and that caused their destruction according to their denial.

This is in the Quran 17: 59

وَمَا مَنَعَنَا أَن نُّرْسِلَ بِالآيَاتِ إِلاَّ أَن كَذَّبَ بِهَا الأَوَّلُونَ وَآتَيْنَا ثَمُودَ النَّاقَةَ مُبْصِرَةً فَظَلَمُواْ بِهَا وَمَا نُرْسِلُ بِالآيَاتِ إِلاَّ تَخْوِيفًا​

The explanation:
(Nothing prevents Us from sending [the messengers] with miracles but that the ancients denied the [miracles], ​

and We even gave [to the tribe of] Thamood the she-camel: an obvious [miracle], but they wronged [themselves] by [killing] it. ​

And We do not send [messengers] with miracles, except to frighten [that nation: as did We send Moses with the staff to Pharaoh and his people.])​

-------------------------------------------------

>> (Nothing prevents Us from sending [the messengers] with miracles but that the ancients denied the [miracles]) ​

It means: nothing prevents Us from giving to Mohammed any objective miracle, other than the Quran; but only because the ancient denied such miracles and said this is only a sort of magic; ​

so if We give you, Mohammed, an objective miracle then your people will also deny, which will require their destruction according to their denial; ​

but better than all this is to wrangle with them and explain to them, and God will guide whoever of them deserving the guidance without any miracle.
​

See more about the miracles of the prophets, here:

http://quran-ayat.com/an_hour_with_ghosts.htm#Miracles_of_the_Prophets
​

 

[L Gilbert]

What haughty you are; and you insist on falsehood.

Sorry, it is you that is the arrogant one; you that considers yourself above anyone that doesn't believe as you do.
As far as falsehood goes, you have no proof whatsoever about the basis of your religion. It is opinion and you cannot prove otherwise.

 

[Spade]

Don't listen to them E A Nasser, the devil made them say it!

 

[Cliffy]

Don't listen to them E A Nasser, the devil made them say it!

And who made you say that?

 

[Spade]

And who made you say that?

I have acute angles on my side! Cute angels, too!