A challenge to our dear Christian friends.

#juan

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Aug 30, 2005
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Without malice I say that we are all allowed to believe, or not believe, in whatever religious doctrine or dogma we see fit. I have a number of friends who are devout Christians and are wonderful people in spite of this. I also have friends who are determined atheists or agnostics, and I respect their rights as well. If a person does believe in God, it is not our place to tell him/her that he/she can't.
I've seen George Carlin's bit about religion and at one time I might have found it amusing if I hadn't seen the guy stand up and spew absolute filth for forty five minutes in an night club act..
 

MikeyDB

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Jun 9, 2006
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Juan

What anyone wants to believe or whichever "belief" they embrace is used as rationale for everything from limosines and airconditioned dog houses to "noble Jihad"....

We've had enough of people "believing" the tripe scooped out by organized religions since the dawn of mankind....

It's a lie and a fraud and "grounds" for everything that's hateful and divissive and primitive in every human culture.
 

s_lone

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Feb 16, 2005
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Don't religion haters have anything better to do than spit on those who take pleasure in gathering together on Sundays to reflect and pray for the well-being of others and themselves? To be inspired to be better people by texts and stories that have a deep cultural relevance to them? Or to those who find comfort and peace by lighting candles, kneeling to the sun, or meditating?

Some of you people put all religious experience in the same basket but religion varies greatly in style and form. It goes from highly dogmatized and hierarchical religion to deeply personal mystical experience, which can take as many forms as there are people in this world.

To accuse religion of being harmful to humanity is equivalent to saying capitalism, communism or socialism is harmful for society. In themselves, these systems are neither good nor bad. It is in the way they are applied by people that make them good or bad. Only individuals are capable of abuse, manipulation and lack of humanism... Don't blame the present day Catholic Church for the inquisition. They are not the one who caused it. Don't blame Islam for 9/11. That event was orchestrated by individuals filled with hate, not by their religion.

Yes, a lot of religion comes in a dogmatic form, which leaves little freedom of thought to the adherents. But don't forget most great minds of history adhered to some religion. St-Augustine, Thomas of Aquinas, Descartes, Kant, Hegel were all pioneers of rational intellectual progress and managed to think creatively and outside of the box despite there adherence to religious dogma. Dogmas can be debated and questioned and most healthy minds do it. The problem is when power-hungry individuals take hold of them and impose their wills on others by using fear tactics.

The rules and laws of our society are ''dogmas'' to which we choose to adhere because we feel they are for the common good. Yet, they are debated and often transgressed for the sake of improving them.

Religious doctrine in itself shouldn't be viewed as good or bad. The ultimate judging factor should be whether or not it promotes justice and humanism and not the selfish interests of a few and whether or not the doctrine itself is freely accepted by the adherent by a leap of faith, or if it has been forcefully imposed on him.
 

MHz

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God the child killer.
Alrighty then, good as place as any to start. It would seem the majority of posts pretty much condemn God for these kinds of acts in the OT. Then there are those who just flat-out don't believe in God at all.
Hopefully the next few posts will explain how I have come to reconcile how God in the OT is the same God associated with mercy. At first glance that would seem to be a contradiction, but it takes a bit a searching His words to find some sort of explanation for some things He did that resolve those same contradictions.

God didn't just show up one day and then start to commit these acts. How much better was the world (in general) in terms of non-violence before the great flood? The answer is it wasn't any more peaceful, nor is anymore peaceful today. Can we put the same standard to ourselves that we place on God? Over 30,000 children die each and every day just from hunger, who gets the credit/blame for those deaths?

Now concerning the ones that God caused to die. True He did cut their life short, you would have to agree that any of those would now be dead anyway. The real question is are they destined to stay dead and eventually sent to the fiery lake. God can undo death as easily as we can open a unlocked door. So why would God specifically do those things in the OT? There is more than one aspect to a full answer (based on individual cases). When He destroyed some of Israel it was because of disbelief or disobedience. When it was Gentiles that died there are a few possible answers. They were on the promised land and they died because they were used as an example to His people that when God fought on your side you won the battle, plain and simple. When you read about those battles, many times those were considered to be the 'most terrible in the land' rather than some benign population that was more inclined to peace and honest trade with their 'neighbors'. Again you have to read what their final fate is going to be, for example, would all those who died in the OT because "God said it should happen" qualify as being 'beheaded for the word of God'? If so, they are covered by the words in this verse.

Re:20:4:
And I saw thrones,
and they sat upon them,
and judgment was given unto them:
and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus,
and for the word of God,
and which had not worshipped the beast,
neither his image,
neither had received his mark upon their foreheads,
or in their hands;
and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

If not in that verse then they are considered to be part of 'the rest' and they are covered by the words in Hebrews:12 and/or Isaiah:65.
They certainly weren't sent to anyplace of eternal punishment, nobody has ever been sent there....yet. This next verse explains what happens to 'all people' when they die, there is no separation of the 'good and the wicked' at the time of death, that happens at Christ's return, that is when some will spent 1,000 years in torment.
Ec:3:20:
All go unto one place;
all are of the dust,
and all turn to dust again.

Ec:12:7:
Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was:
and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

I don't believe Scripture points to those who He caused to die have lost any hope of eventually being brought back to life and then being offered a drink of living water by God himself.

Re:21:3:
And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying,
Behold,
the tabernacle of God is with men,
and he will dwell with them,
and they shall be his people,
and God himself shall be with them,
and be their God.
Re:21:4:
And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes;
and there shall be no more death,
neither sorrow,
nor crying,
neither shall there be any more pain:
for the former things are passed away.
Re:21:5:
And he that sat upon the throne said,
Behold,
I make all things new.
And he said unto me,
Write:
for these words are true and faithful.
Re:21:6:
And he said unto me,
It is done.
I am Alpha and Omega,
the beginning and the end.
I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

Nobody seems very concerned with the number of deaths Satan has caused.

Another reason God did what He did in the OT may have another reason that is more important than the ones already given. Hopefully everybody already knows that the first day of Christ's return is called the Day of the Lord. If you aren't impressed by what God did (with Godly power) in the OT then you certainly won't be impressed by what Christ accomplishes in the first hours of His return. The way Scripture explains the relationship between God and Christ is that Christ can only do what God has shown Him.

Joh:5:19:
Then answered Jesus and said unto them,
Verily,
verily,
I say unto you,
The Son can do nothing of himself,
but what he seeth the Father do:
for what things soever he doeth,
these also doeth the Son likewise.

This would include cleansing the whole world of the 'wicked' in very quick fashion.

Zep:1:18:
Neither their silver nor their gold shall be able to deliver them in the day of the LORD's wrath;
but the whole land shall be devoured by the fire of his jealousy:
for he shall make even a speedy riddance of all them that dwell in the land.

Zec:3:9:
For behold the stone that I have laid before Joshua;
upon one stone shall be seven eyes:
behold,
I will engrave the graving thereof,
saith the LORD of hosts,
and I will remove the iniquity of that land in one day.

Isa:66:16:
For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh:
and the slain of the LORD shall be many.

Am:8:3:
And the songs of the temple shall be howlings in that day,
saith the Lord GOD:
there shall be many dead bodies in every place;
they shall cast them forth with silence.

On that day Babylon (Satan's city) will suffer the same fate as Sodom and Gomorrah,

Ge:19:27:
And Abraham gat up early in the morning to the place where he stood before the LORD:
Ge:19:28:
And he looked toward Sodom and Gomorrah,
and toward all the land of the plain,
and beheld,
and,
lo,
the smoke of the country went up as the smoke of a furnace.


So will I send thee upon you famine and evil hands and they shall bereave thee and pestilence and blood shall pass through thee: and I will bring the sword upon thee. I the LORD have spoken it. Ezekiel 5
This is a 'yet to be' verse, it is part of prophecy that is about Israel (the remnant that is not part of the 144,000) during Satan's 42 months before the start of the Day of the Lord. Having God have His back turned on then during this time is not going to be a good thing for them. That is why Ezekiel:37 has 12 verses that cover them being brought back to life, this is why they need to be resurrected (rather than having their lives protected. Again it is a sign to the Gentiles about God's power (what He won't do when angry and what He will do when that anger is passed).

Eze:39:21:
And I will set my glory among the heathen,
and all the heathen shall see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid upon them.
Eze:39:22:
So the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day and forward.
Eze:39:23:
And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity:
because they trespassed against me,
therefore hid I my face from them,
and gave them into the hand of their enemies:
so fell they all by the sword.
Eze:39:24:
According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions have I done unto them,
and hid my face from them.
Eze:39:25:
Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD;
Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob,
and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel,
and will be jealous for my holy name;

God proclaimed this would happen because 'they' were going to kill Jeremiah (about Ch:25) so it isn't based on anything that has been going on since Jesus walked the land.

And he went up from thence unto Bethel; and as he was going up by the way there came forth little children out of the city, and mock him and said to him , go forth they bald head, go forth they bald head.
And he turned back, and looked at them, and cursed them in the name of the LORD. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them.2 Kings 2.
The children were wanting a 'bigger sign' (than healing the water he healed)that Elisha was sent from God, they wanted to see him taken away the same as his father, Elijah, was taken.

Nor is this something that will not also happen on the Day of the Lord.

Am:5:18:
Woe unto you that desire the day of the LORD!
to what end is it for you?
the day of the LORD is darkness, and not light.
Am:5:19:
As if a man did flee from a lion,
and a bear met him;
or went into the house,
and leaned his hand on the wall,
and a serpent bit him.


At midnite the LORD smote all the first born in the land of Egypt, from the first born of the Pharoah who sits on his throne, to the first born of the captive and all the first born of the cattle. Exodus 29,30

Did you also know that God hardened Pharaoh's heart so that all those things would be accomplished? No doubt this had something to do with God also giving up His only begotten Son to death, does that cover any of God's 'sins'?
 

Unforgiven

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May 28, 2007
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Don't religion haters have anything better to do than spit on those who take pleasure in gathering together on Sundays to reflect and pray for the well-being of others and themselves? To be inspired to be better people by texts and stories that have a deep cultural relevance to them? Or to those who find comfort and peace by lighting candles, kneeling to the sun, or meditating?

Some of you people put all religious experience in the same basket but religion varies greatly in style and form. It goes from highly dogmatized and hierarchical religion to deeply personal mystical experience, which can take as many forms as there are people in this world.

To accuse religion of being harmful to humanity is equivalent to saying capitalism, communism or socialism is harmful for society. In themselves, these systems are neither good nor bad. It is in the way they are applied by people that make them good or bad. Only individuals are capable of abuse, manipulation and lack of humanism... Don't blame the present day Catholic Church for the inquisition. They are not the one who caused it. Don't blame Islam for 9/11. That event was orchestrated by individuals filled with hate, not by their religion.

Yes, a lot of religion comes in a dogmatic form, which leaves little freedom of thought to the adherents. But don't forget most great minds of history adhered to some religion. St-Augustine, Thomas of Aquinas, Descartes, Kant, Hegel were all pioneers of rational intellectual progress and managed to think creatively and outside of the box despite there adherence to religious dogma. Dogmas can be debated and questioned and most healthy minds do it. The problem is when power-hungry individuals take hold of them and impose their wills on others by using fear tactics.

The rules and laws of our society are ''dogmas'' to which we choose to adhere because we feel they are for the common good. Yet, they are debated and often transgressed for the sake of improving them.

Religious doctrine in itself shouldn't be viewed as good or bad. The ultimate judging factor should be whether or not it promotes justice and humanism and not the selfish interests of a few and whether or not the doctrine itself is freely accepted by the adherent by a leap of faith, or if it has been forcefully imposed on him.

You forgot to mention the child molesting, assaulting, murdering, and hate mongering of homosexuals, and non- believers through the years all gathered under the banner of gods chosen one.
 

#juan

Hall of Fame Member
Aug 30, 2005
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Juan

What anyone wants to believe or whichever "belief" they embrace is used as rationale for everything from limosines and airconditioned dog houses to "noble Jihad"....

We've had enough of people "believing" the tripe scooped out by organized religions since the dawn of mankind....

It's a lie and a fraud and "grounds" for everything that's hateful and divissive and primitive in every human culture.

What do you mean "we" paleface. .....;-)

I will believe or not believe in whatever without anyone's permission. I am not particularly religious, but all religious people are not Tammy Faye Baker and the like.
After harnessing fire and making pointed sticks, religion was one of the first signs that man could think further than his next meal.
 

s_lone

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Feb 16, 2005
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You forgot to mention the child molesting, assaulting, murdering, and hate mongering of homosexuals, and non- believers through the years all gathered under the banner of gods chosen one.

Wrong! I didn't forget anything. My point is that only individuals can be blamed for horrible actions.

You choose to point out the people who did these horrible things and insinuate it was religion who caused them to do it. Yet, you don't point out people like Martin Luther King, Gandhi and Mother Teresa who gave their lives to good causes with religious faith as a primary fuel for inspiration and motivation.

If a serial killer happens to be an atheist, should I blame atheism for his crimes?
George Bush happens to be Christian... Am I to blame christianity for the state he is leaving the US in?
 
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karrie

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"Believe in me and obey me or else I will destroy you" No choice eh. Pure and simple Nazi ideology.


"Agree with me, conform your behavior to my expectation, or I will advocate your death."
Yeah, it's clearly the religious people on here who talk like that, right? Surely no one else on here advocates genocides because they disagree with a viewpoint. Yep, only religion is evil.
 

karrie

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You forgot to mention the child molesting, assaulting, murdering, and hate mongering of homosexuals, and non- believers through the years all gathered under the banner of gods chosen one.

And you make it clear that the religious aren't the only ones capable of intolerant stereotyping.
 

Praxius

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Dec 18, 2007
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I was once a practising,maybe even devout Catholic......

Former Catholic, no longer? Welcome to the club.

I have no real reason to debate with you whether the God in the Bible exists or not, because I'm pretty much on the same level as you are when it comes to the focus on the Christian God. All the questions I had as a child were never answered, esspecially by those in authority of the religion.... by the end of each discussion, it all boiled down to "Having Faith."

I outa shove some faith up their arse with my faithful boot.

But besides the argument that the Christian God as it is discribed in the Bible does not exist..... I propose a more in depth discussion your way, which is:

#1 - Is there a life after this one?

#2 - If there is, What is the Afterlife?

#3 - If there is no God in the context of the Bible's discription out there, then how was the Christian God concept created and how were the rules and regulations set in the Bible created and based on what?

#4 - Of those details of how they arrived to the Christian fundamentals in the Bible, Jesus and God, etc.... how would one determine the acuracy of those stories and scriptures and that there was very little human influence in what was written in the Bible for all to follow?

#5 - If no God or other Super Being exists to set rule and judgement on us through time, then what would be the most logical explination as to why someone would form the Christian religion or God?

And I hope you're not devoting yourself entirely to Science now that you no longer believe in Religion, because Science is just a different form of Religion which holds the same principles as a Relgion. Yeah I know a few here disagree with me, esspecially the Science nuts, but when you look at both concepts side by side, how they came about, where they are going, the set rules in each, and their own self-set limitations which in turn will end each concepts ability to grow and leave room for new concepts in the future..... you will see that the true answer is always within and is determined by your own level of understanding and desire to know..... not by what someone else tells you.

You will notice that I would rather ask more questions then to give out answers, because no answer is absolute for every situation, yet a question is always constant, because it's the desire to want to know. The questions above are constant, yet the answers for each will always be different based on the person thinking of the answer.

This division of each person's final answers are what have helped create the devisions and schisims in religions and sciences. Each group is continually trying to potray their answers and explinations as being the right ones over everyone else, and then they build imaginary consequences that you will have to suffer if you do not believe in their explinations. This is a force-method of attempting to make your answer the right one, regardless if it is or not. This causes the wars and genocides in the world today and will continue to do so, like many other continual ideologies.

I'll stop there for now.
 
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s_lone

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#1 - Is there a life after this one?

We don't know. People with a dominantly scientific mind frame will probably tell you there's no reason for us to think there is one, that absolutely no evidence points to the possibility of an afterlife, so we should therefore take for granted there is none.

Yet, science hasn't discovered how to explain consciousness and especially free will. Either free will is authentic, or an illusion. The conclusions science has reached so far on human existence gives us nothing more than a status of elaborate flesh machines which respond to the complex chemistry of our brains. In that case, the free will we imagine having is nothing more than an illusion. But the notion that we have no freedom whatsoever is so counter-intuitive that it is more than understandable for us to wonder if there is something more to our existence than chemical reactions. Something that has in its essence and nature the capacity to rise above the deterministic mechanics of pure physics. From the very little advanced science I know, quantum physics COULD open the door to such a concept...

If free will is authentically possible, then this opens the door to a whole world of metaphysical possibilities where science certainly has its place but must accept to ''back up"" into the realm of pure philosophy, if science is to be considered a branch of philosophy.

#2 - If there is, What is the Afterlife?

We could speculate forever...

#3 - If there is no God in the context of the Bible's discription out there, then how was the Christian God concept created and how were the rules and regulations set in the Bible created and based on what?

You could study this subject for a whole life time. You'd need a rock solid understanding of history but also of human psychology. Carl Jung had some fascinating insights on Christian mythology...

#4 - Of those details of how they arrived to the Christian fundamentals in the Bible, Jesus and God, etc.... how would one determine the acuracy of those stories and scriptures and that there was very little human influence in what was written in the Bible for all to follow?

I don't know of any kind of evidence that someone could come up with to show that the Bible is the Word of God. Someone who thinks that way does so out of pure faith... in my opinion...

#5 - If no God or other Super Being exists to set rule and judgement on us through time, then what would be the most logical explination as to why someone would form the Christian religion, or any religion for that matter?
Tough question... Power hungry people wanted to have power over others by using fear as a tool... ??? But then, religion is not just about fear. The basic teachings of Christ are pretty optimistic, progressive and constructive... I suspect the real answer to this question would be elaborate, complex, and multi-faceted.
 
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Unforgiven

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May 28, 2007
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Wrong! I didn't forget anything. My point is that only individuals can be blamed for horrible actions.

You choose to point out the people who did these horrible things and insinuate it was religion who caused them to do it. Yet, you don't point out people like Martin Luther King, Gandhi and Mother Teresa who gave their lives to good causes with religious faith as a primary fuel for inspiration and motivation.

If a serial killer happens to be an atheist, should I blame atheism for his crimes?
George Bush happens to be Christian... Am I to blame christianity for the state he is leaving the US in?

The Church's views have long presented themselves through the acts of people. The Crusades weren't just some guys idea nor was the Inquisition. All the kids who were molested and having the Diocese move the priests around and sweep the problem under the carpet isn't one bad apple spoiling the bunch.

If an Atheist provides a book that tells Atheists to kill for some reason in the name of that book then yeah I suppose you could say that Atheism had a hand in it. I don't have to bring up any person who does wonderful things for humanity do to their religion as most already know of it as well it's not my place to do so in this thread.

That you say it's got nothing at all to do with religion draws my interjection of the few things I know about that do stem from religion, specifically Christianity.
 

Unforgiven

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And you make it clear that the religious aren't the only ones capable of intolerant stereotyping.

I think everyone is easily capable of that. I do have a point though and it's typical of you to over look that to get a swipe in.
 

s_lone

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Feb 16, 2005
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The Church's views have long presented themselves through the acts of people. The Crusades weren't just some guys idea nor was the Inquisition. All the kids who were molested and having the Diocese move the priests around and sweep the problem under the carpet isn't one bad apple spoiling the bunch.

If an Atheist provides a book that tells Atheists to kill for some reason in the name of that book then yeah I suppose you could say that Atheism had a hand in it. I don't have to bring up any person who does wonderful things for humanity do to their religion as most already know of it as well it's not my place to do so in this thread.

That you say it's got nothing at all to do with religion draws my interjection of the few things I know about that do stem from religion, specifically Christianity.

Don't get me wrong... I definitely get your point that religion IS a central issue in a lot of horrible stuff that happened and that still happen today. But you can't condemn an entire faith for the actions of individuals. At least, each faith should be judged with lucidity for their own flaws and merits.

Surely you are not saying that all those in the world who consider themselves practising catholics should feel guilty for the Church cover-ups of child molestation by priests? They certainly should feel ashamed of their own institution... but Catholic faith goes AGAINST child molestation anyways! This simple fact proves you can't blame the faith in question for the bad actions that were commited, because those who did these actions were NOT following their so-called faith.
 

karrie

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I think everyone is easily capable of that. I do have a point though and it's typical of you to over look that to get a swipe in.

a swipe? since when is a counter point a swipe?

You have to understand that, as a Christian, I've never called to have someone killed or imprisoned or 'reprogrammed' for their religious views. But I have had people on here say such ignorant things about religion, based on the abuses of the few, people call for the deaths of Christians/Muslims/Jews based on our religion, people call for the removal of our children from our homes, the eradication of 'thinking like ours'. So I get a bit annoyed, when hearing someone of an agnostic or atheist belief system, make blanket statements based on generalization, while ignoring the hate and calls for genocide, coming from their own camp.
 

Unforgiven

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Don't get me wrong... I definitely get your point that religion IS a central issue in a lot of horrible stuff that happened and that still happen today. But you can't condemn an entire faith for the actions of individuals. At least, each faith should be judged with lucidity for their own flaws and merits.

Surely you are not saying that all those in the world who consider themselves practising catholics should feel guilty for the Church cover-ups of child molestation by priests? They certainly should feel ashamed of their own institution... but Catholic faith goes AGAINST child molestation anyways! This simple fact proves you can't blame the faith in question for the bad actions that were commited, because those who did these actions were NOT following their so-called faith.

Until it is prevented from happening by diligent and effective policy, then the responsibility for it falls to each and every member of the faith to make that so. Until that is a reality, blame fall upon all members. Like the police who stand behind the blue line and the politicians who take care of their own, it's a blemish that tarnishes each and everyone.
 

mrgrumpy

Electoral Member
God's direction to women; obey and shut up.

Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor usurp authority over man but be in silence. For Adam was the first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived but the woman being deceived was in trangression. Timothy 2 11-14

Wives submit yourselves unto your husband as unto the LORD. For the husband is head of the wife, even as Christ is head of the church. Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ so the wives are be to their own husbands in every thing. Ephesians 5 22-24
 

s_lone

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Until it is prevented from happening by diligent and effective policy, then the responsibility for it falls to each and every member of the faith to make that so. Until that is a reality, blame fall upon all members. Like the police who stand behind the blue line and the politicians who take care of their own, it's a blemish that tarnishes each and everyone.

I absolutely disagree. Are you blaming all Canadian politicians for the sponsership scandal? There is such a thing as an honest politician and I don't believe at all they are to blame for the faults of their peers.
 

mrgrumpy

Electoral Member
Praxius - you ask really good questions!...and certainly I can't pretend to answer them but in terms of understanding man's psychological need to believe in supreme beings and explain a mysterious natural world I would refer you to a wonderful book called The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind. I've lent my copy and don't recall the author's name but it was published about 20 years ago and gives great insights into the evolution of the human mind and how it helped explain nature in terms of beings controlling forces that were then mysterios and which we now understand in terms of geology, weather, chemistry, biology and other sciences.

Is there life after death? My personal opinion is that there is not; we are biological entities subject to natural laws and while it is attractive to wish for immortality, there really is no evidence whatsoever that our memories, personality or character survive the death of the brain. Christian wishful thinking notwithstanding.
 

china

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MickeyDB

Surely socialism and Chinese communism are artifacts of thought as well aren't they?
So is a religion , isn't it ?

Any how ,there is more capitalism and private enterprises in the smallest city in China then there in the "democratic", socialistic
Canada , the second biggest country in the world .
 
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