2SLGBTQQIA+

[Dexter Sinister]

As an entrepreneur is how Im asking.

I wouldn’t think that would make any difference. I’m not an entrepreneur, but if I were I wouldn’t treat a trans client any differently than anyone else, even assuming I knew a client was trans, which I doubt I would unless a flamboyant display made it obvious. Even so, a sale’s a sale, I wouldn’t much care who buys whatever I’m offering, just that *somebody* buys it.

 

[petros]

I wouldn’t think that would make any difference. I’m not an entrepreneur, but if I were I wouldn’t treat a trans client any differently than anyone else, even assuming I knew a client was trans, which I doubt I would unless a flamboyant display made it obvious. Even so, a sale’s a sale, I wouldn’t much care who buys whatever I’m offering, just that *somebody* buys it.

A younger me would take advantage of a burgeoning market and promote it.

 

[Serryah]

I wish I could make sense of all this ferment over gender identity, but so far it’s eluded me. How many genders are there? I don’t know. I think a case can be made that it’s more than two, but I doubt it extends to dozens, or hundreds, as some people claim, and a lot of the arguments about it strike me as less than convincing, to put it gently. Co-opting plural pronouns to avoid using the gender-specific singular ones is only confusing to me; I’m no language Nazi, I know meanings evolve, but arbitrarily changing them to suit some political agenda seems foolish to me, and it jars my sense of proper grammar. We need new words, not redefined old ones that already have well understood meanings. I recall when Ms. was introduced to replace Miss and Mrs. to avoid identifying a woman’s marital status all the time, and that worked eventually. For a while it was a political statement, but now it’s a routine part of the language. Maybe in another generation all this 2SLGBTQ… etc. stuff will have shaken down into something just as routine, but right now I find it confusing and often annoying. I’d agree people can call themselves whatever suits them, but I don’t think they’re entitled to compel me to use the language as they do.

Maybe I just got too old for the modern world.

It depends on what society you look at and how far back in history you look.

Gender - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

More specifically:

Cultures That Recognize More than Two Genders | Britannica

Curious about genders that defy the binary? Learn more about cultures around the world that recognize nonbinary identities.

www.britannica.com

Interactive Map: Gender-Diverse Cultures

On nearly every continent, and for all of recorded history, thriving cultures have recognized, revered, and integrated more than two genders.

www.pbs.org

It can't even be said that it's the Abrahamic religion that has pushed the current view on Gender, because in the Jewish faith - which it's all born out of - there is division of acceptance or not.

What the Torah Teaches Us About Gender Fluidity and Transgender Justice

This pos

rac.org

Understanding Transgender Issues in Jewish Ethics - Reconstructing Judaism

Drawing on the surprisingly sophisticated classical Jewish perspective on sex and gender, Rabbi David Teutch advocates for celebration and inclusion of transgender people as a fundamental issue of justice.

www.reconstructingjudaism.org

Although this surprised me.

Transgender Jews and Jewish Law: Redefining the Landscape

Television’s “Transparent” and President Donald Trump’s attempt to ban transgender individuals from the US military are two sides of a coin that reflects the visibility in contemporary culture of the complexities of gender and sexual identity. No surprise, then, that the Conservative movement...

www.wlcj.org

"Transgender, agender, or non-binary individuals who identify as Conservative, in any location, may not find a place of acceptance as easily. But, whether it is finding oneself at Jewish camp, or serving a leadership role in the clergy, a place within the Conservative Jewish world is indeed possible."

Conservatives supporting Trans people; yeah, that is surprising.

Point being, gender has been a sliding scale/varied opinion topic for centuries, even millennia. This isn't a 'new' thing.

 

[Ron in Regina]

Language changes over time, Dex. The term "gender" used to mean biological sex. Now it's more of a social construct, and people who felt constrained by the strictly binary, presumptively interested in sex paradigm have (for the moment) settled on "gender" as the term for the social phenomenon of how one responds to sexual identity.

This is pretty much what I’m thinking is going on also, more or less, and it doesn’t mean I’ve got it, but I think I’ve got it.

The Term Biological Sex meant Biological Sex, & Gender also use to mean Biological Sex….but now can mean something else depending on the agenda and conversation. The terms where once synonymous but now for some they still are & for others they aren’t. I think that’s what all the fighting is about mostly

Biological Sex still means Biological Sex and there’s only two of those for 99.99…% of the population with a few misfires thrown it…law of averages, etc…

Then Gender means whatever you want it to mean now. Sometimes it means Biological Sex, sometimes it’s a political term, sometimes it’s a weapon, but much of the time currently (I believe at this point until I change my mind) it’s whatever you “feel” like at any given time. I know, weird, but it’s the only thing that fits the narrative.

If you’re not using “Biological Sex” and “Gender” as synonymous terms, then you can’t argue that they are when it’s convenient to do so, when you don’t in other circumstances. I think that’s part of what the fight is about also. It’s a pick a lane & definition for each term, so everybody knows what they’re arguing about…or that there’s nothing to argue about?

 

[Ron in Regina]

"Transgender, agender, or non-binary individuals who identify as Conservative, in any location, may not find a place of acceptance as easily. But, whether it is finding oneself at Jewish camp, or serving a leadership role in the clergy, a place within the Conservative Jewish world is indeed possible."

I don’t have the knowledge base to comment on that either way.

Conservatives supporting Trans people; yeah, that is surprising.

Maybe only for people who don’t identify at Conservative, as that’s also probably a sliding scale instead of one unified group mind single-think entity.

Point being, gender has been a sliding scale/varied opinion topic for centuries, even millennia. This isn't a 'new' thing.

Gender has, Biological Sex though…has it? Are they two separate things or interchangeable terms?

If they’re two different things, the whole Bathroom thing or Sports categories thing can be resolved in an afternoon instead of what we’re seeing currently.

 

[Tecumsehsbones]

I don’t have the knowledge base to comment on that either way.

Maybe only for people who don’t identify at Conservative, as that’s also probably a sliding scale instead of one unified group mind single-think entity.

Gender has, Biological Sex though…has it? Are they two separate things or interchangeable terms?

If they’re two different things, the whole Bathroom thing or Sports categories thing can be resolved in an afternoon instead of what we’re seeing currently.

Not entirely. In addition to hermaphrodites, there are anatomical women who have testosterone levels more consistent with bio-men, and bio-men with estrogen levels more consistent with bio-women. And plenty of people with neither hormone at significant levels.

There's actually more to biological sex than whether you're an innie or an outie.

 

[Ron in Regina]

Not entirely. In addition to hermaphrodites, there are anatomical women who have testosterone levels more consistent with bio-men, and bio-men with estrogen levels more consistent with bio-women. And plenty of people with neither hormone at significant levels.

There's actually more to biological sex than whether you're an innie or an outie.

Or XX or XY, or other defining characteristics. Got it. Still wrapping my head around things. I’m assuming the truly off the charts of XX or XY (for lack of better terms at this point) are minute portions of the population. Not irrelevant, but tiny.

 

[Tecumsehsbones]

Or XX or XY, or other defining characteristics. Got it. Still wrapping my head around things. I’m assuming the truly off the charts of XX or XY (for lack of better terms at this point) are minute portions of the population. Not irrelevant, but tiny.

As are trans people. Don't change the fact that they were historically picked upon, incarcerated, tortured, mutilated (oh, pardon me, "subjected to court-ordered surgical treatment), and so on. For centuries. Maybe let them have a couple of decades feeling safe being who they are, and they won't feel the need to flaunt it any more that plain vanilla men and women flaunt their characteristics and desires. Or any less.

 

[Ron in Regina]

It may not seem like it because I post news stories from opposing viewpoints on the same topic, etc….& I do have my own opinions, but I am trying to wrap my head around the whole thing. Like seriously trying to wrap my head around it.

That’s why I stated above, Tiny, but not irrelevant, etc….& actually try to think through the debate and discussion and argument to figure out why & what people are actually arguing & debating over.

I still think it comes down to the definitions be used for Gender vs Biological Sex, and their interchangeability sometimes but not all the time, etc…& if they just came up with two definitions (one for each term), so everybody could be on the same page as the what they’re arguing about…. Much of the differences might just go away.

 

[Tecumsehsbones]

It may not seem like it because I post news stories from opposing viewpoints on the same topic, etc….& I do have my own opinions, but I am trying to wrap my head around the whole thing. Like seriously trying to wrap my head around it.

That’s why I stated above, Tiny, but not irrelevant, etc….& actually try to think through the debate and discussion and argument to figure out why & what people are actually arguing & debating over.

I still think it comes down to the definitions be used for Gender vs Biological Sex, and their interchangeability sometimes but not all the time, etc…& if they just came up with two definitions (one for each term), so everybody could be on the same page as the what they’re arguing about…. Much of the differences might just go away.

Well, the single, ironclad definitions of the sexes held for centuries, and led to the horrors I mentioned above inflicted on people who didn't meet the hard-and-fast definitions.

Y'know, being a pizza guy and all, I have some experience with laws and contracts and suchlike. Critical for pizza delivery. And almost every piece of legislation, rulebook, and contract starts out with a section that reads "For the purposes herein. . ." followed by a list of terms and definitions for the scope of that document and what it governs. Seems like a pretty smart idea to me.

 

[Ron in Regina]

Y'know, being a pizza guy and all, I have some experience with laws and contracts and suchlike. Critical for pizza delivery….

I love pizza, but that’s a different story.

I still think it comes down to the definitions be used for Gender vs Biological Sex, and their interchangeability sometimes but not all the time, etc…& if they just came up with two definitions (one for each term), so everybody could be on the same page as the what they’re arguing about…. Much of the differences might just go away.

I would’ve come back at the above with, “Who are the ‘THEY’ that should come up with the definitions?” Etc…

 

[Tecumsehsbones]

I love pizza, but that’s a different story.

I would’ve come back at the above with, “Who are the ‘THEY’ that should come up with the definitions?” Etc…

Nope. Insofar as there are valid reasons for sex differentiation in sports and some other areas of life, "they" are the governing bodies of the sports. For private clubs and organizations, if they wanna have a "NO GURLZ ALOWD" rule, I'm cool with it.

You're all hot and vaporish about a trans woman competing in a women's swimming competition? Easy. Have the governing authority of the league write a rule defining "women," "for the purposes herein. . ."

If you want to discriminate in employment, education, housing, or places of public accommodation, yeah, I got a problem with that.

 

[Ron in Regina]

Nope. Insofar as there are valid reasons for sex differentiation in sports and some other areas of life, "they" are the governing bodies of the sports. For private clubs and organizations, if they wanna have a "NO GURLZ ALOWD" rule, I'm cool with it.

Like the Little Rascals. I’m not sports fan orientated. That’s not how I self identify.

Certain sports favour a man’s physique and certain sports favour a woman’s physique, some of them it becomes inconsequential like equestrian riding…. Where it is more about control and the physical attributes of the mount.

I’m not a woman, but I live with one. I hear what her opinion is on the subject and I see it as very valid. I hear that she would be very uncomfortable in the shower room in mixed gender setting that isn’t a “family change room” or what have you. I get it as in that setting, she has a choice whether or not she participates.

I have lived on the road and in camps for a significant enough portion of my life that I couldn’t give two shits who’s in the locker room with me as long as they are comfortable also. If you want to stare at my junk, then you can fill your boots because I don’t care…. But I’m not a woman. Not today anyway in the “feels” department.

You're all hot and vaporish about a trans woman competing in a women's swimming competition? Easy. Have the governing authority of the league write a rule defining "women," "for the purposes herein. . ."

I just want to debate, but in a way that I can walk away if I’m tired. Sometimes you got to take the opposing position. Sometimes you’ve got to switch positions just to keep things rolling….as there’s not a whole lot of new blood here.

If you want to discriminate in employment, education, housing, or places of public accommodation, yeah, I got a problem with that.

That’s a different animal all together. I hear you and I get it.

 

[petros]

This is pretty much what I’m thinking is going on also, more or less, and it doesn’t mean I’ve got it, but I think I’ve got it.

The Term Biological Sex meant Biological Sex, & Gender also use to mean Biological Sex….but now can mean something else depending on the agenda and conversation. The terms where once synonymous but now for some they still are & for others they aren’t. I think that’s what all the fighting is about mostly

Biological Sex still means Biological Sex and there’s only two of those for 99.99…% of the population with a few misfires thrown it…law of averages, etc…

Then Gender means whatever you want it to mean now. Sometimes it means Biological Sex, sometimes it’s a political term, sometimes it’s a weapon, but much of the time currently (I believe at this point until I change my mind) it’s whatever you “feel” like at any given time. I know, weird, but it’s the only thing that fits the narrative.

If you’re not using “Biological Sex” and “Gender” as synonymous terms, then you can’t argue that they are when it’s convenient to do so, when you don’t in other circumstances. I think that’s part of what the fight is about also. It’s a pick a lane & definition for each term, so everybody knows what they’re arguing about…or that there’s nothing to argue about?

If gender were a construct there is zero need to be castrated, mascetomismed or pumped with opposing hormones to affirm something that doesnt exist. Its SEX change surgery not gender change surgery.

Its an industry....

1000 trans = $160M USD in direct profits.

Wanna set up an Affirmation Clinic under the brand name Stuart Smalley's?

Do you think you're a plant? Okay plant affirming fertilizer it is. $1999 for 50mg doses B.I.D of Miracle Grow per month.

Do you think you are a man? We'll set you up with sewer snaking and septic tank pumping courses.

Think you're a woman? 3 days of kicks to the crotch and punches to the tits wit killer anemic headaches to experience menstruation.

Or just plain ol sterilization if non barney.

20% of pre age of majority children cant be wrong......can they?

You're good enough, smart enough and doggone it, people like you.

 

[Dexter Sinister]

20% of pre age of majority children cant be wrong......can they?

Yeah, that one seriously vexes me too. CBC had a story online recently about a woman who has a non-binary child, and another she described as gender diverse. The first child is 10 years old, age of the other wasn’t given. Thinking of myself at 10, I was completely unaware of my sexuality, I was just a kid, hormones hadn’t kicked in yet and it wasn’t anything I thought about. Beats me how you could know at 10 that you’re non-binary. I also had a female relative who was convinced for a few of her adolescent years that she was a lesbian, which caused much angst and agonizing self assessments. Turned out she wasn’t, but she was an extreme drama queen, lived a life like something out of Wuthering Heights, if there was no turgid emotional crisis in her life she’d fabricate one, and didn’t really settle down into some semblance of stability until she was approaching 40. Can’t imagine how even more messed up she might have become in today’s climate of promoting gender diversity, she’d have had even more occasions for inventing emotional crises.

 

[petros]

Yeah, that one seriously vexes me too. CBC had a story online recently about a woman who has a non-binary child, and another she described as gender diverse. The first child is 10 years old, age of the other wasn’t given. Thinking of myself at 10, I was completely unaware of my sexuality, I was just a kid, hormones hadn’t kicked in yet and it wasn’t anything I thought about. Beats me how you could know at 10 that you’re non-binary. I also had a female relative who was convinced for a few of her adolescent years that she was a lesbian, which caused much angst and agonizing self assessments. Turned out she wasn’t, but she was an extreme drama queen, lived a life like something out of Wuthering Heights, if there was no turgid emotional crisis in her life she’d fabricate one, and didn’t really settle down into some semblance of stability until she was approaching 40. Can’t imagine how even more messed up she might have become in today’s climate of promoting gender diversity, she’d have had even more occasions for inventing emotional crises.

She should let them drive, sign up for the army or put them to work as astronauts. Obviously they are exceptionally mature and savants.

 

[Serryah]

Yeah, that one seriously vexes me too. CBC had a story online recently about a woman who has a non-binary child, and another she described as gender diverse. The first child is 10 years old, age of the other wasn’t given. Thinking of myself at 10, I was completely unaware of my sexuality, I was just a kid, hormones hadn’t kicked in yet and it wasn’t anything I thought about. Beats me how you could know at 10 that you’re non-binary.

IMO, this is where a lot of confusion about the issue is, and where I - as much as I hate it - agree with some who are strictly gay or lesbian, because being gay or lesbian or Bi/Pan is a matter of sexual attraction, while Trans, Queer, Non-Binary, Gender Fluid and others are based on gender.

But because GLB usually get grouped up with TQIA+, it's all under one blanket group, even if there is differences.

As for a kid of 10 knowing they're non-binary - the question could be asked of you how did you know your gender at 10? Because non-binary is a gender term.

If you ask trans people, or others on the gender side of things, how they "knew" and how young they were, you'd get mostly young ages (sometimes real young, sometimes six or so) and that they just knew. Kind'a like how you 'just know' you're a boy/girl for non-trans/straight people.

Some don't realize it until later, some need time to figure out just what it is they are gender wise, and some still mix gender and sexuality so you can be trans and lesbian at the same time, for example.

For me personally, I can look back at my life as a kid now and realize that I was 'not straight' for a long time, but I didn't give myself a 'name' to it until I was much older.

I also had a female relative who was convinced for a few of her adolescent years that she was a lesbian, which caused much angst and agonizing self assessments. Turned out she wasn’t, but she was an extreme drama queen, lived a life like something out of Wuthering Heights, if there was no turgid emotional crisis in her life she’d fabricate one, and didn’t really settle down into some semblance of stability until she was approaching 40. Can’t imagine how even more messed up she might have become in today’s climate of promoting gender diversity, she’d have had even more occasions for inventing emotional crises.

When it comes to sexuality stuff - like being gay, lesbian, etc - experimentation is gonna happen.

Whenever I hear stories of "Oh I thought I was X but turns out I wasn't" I usually think of the person of either being Bi, or they were just not sure themselves.

When it comes to Gender, that's why the blockers are a big push/request. It allows for kids to pause puberty to find out if they are trans, or maybe just gender-fluid, or non-binary or whatever, for certain. And then they don't need to worry about puberty hitting and their bodies changing due to the hormones. It allows them to have a better chance of looking more like the gender they are, not what they were assigned at birth just because of a body part. It'll make transition easier. And they'll PASS, which is one of the biggest issues older Trans people have in their lives. Older Trans people didn't get blockers, so they have the effects of T or E on their bodies and while for trans men it's easier for them to pass as male, well we all know what it's like for Trans women. But kids with blockers don't get that hormone hit right away, until they know, and THEN they can be put on the proper hormones, which means their bodies will better look like the gender they are.

And in the end, the mental health of those kids is a hell of a lot better. When you look like the gender you are, it's a huge weight off of you, vs. when you don't pass.

 

[Tecumsehsbones]

Yeah, that one seriously vexes me too. CBC had a story online recently about a woman who has a non-binary child, and another she described as gender diverse. The first child is 10 years old, age of the other wasn’t given. Thinking of myself at 10, I was completely unaware of my sexuality, I was just a kid, hormones hadn’t kicked in yet and it wasn’t anything I thought about. Beats me how you could know at 10 that you’re non-binary. I also had a female relative who was convinced for a few of her adolescent years that she was a lesbian, which caused much angst and agonizing self assessments. Turned out she wasn’t, but she was an extreme drama queen, lived a life like something out of Wuthering Heights, if there was no turgid emotional crisis in her life she’d fabricate one, and didn’t really settle down into some semblance of stability until she was approaching 40. Can’t imagine how even more messed up she might have become in today’s climate of promoting gender diversity, she’d have had even more occasions for inventing emotional crises.

Everybody lives in a fantasy. Hers was just a mite louder.

 

[Ron in Regina]

IMO, this is where a lot of confusion about the issue is, and where I - as much as I hate it - agree with some who are strictly gay or lesbian, because being gay or lesbian or Bi/Pan is a matter of sexual attraction, while Trans, Queer, Non-Binary, Gender Fluid and others are based on gender.

But because GLB usually get grouped up with TQIA+, it's all under one blanket group, even if there is differences.

As for a kid of 10 knowing they're non-binary - the question could be asked of you how did you know your gender at 10? Because non-binary is a gender term.

If you ask trans people, or others on the gender side of things, how they "knew" and how young they were, you'd get mostly young ages (sometimes real young, sometimes six or so) and that they just knew. Kind'a like how you 'just know' you're a boy/girl for non-trans/straight people.

Some don't realize it until later, some need time to figure out just what it is they are gender wise, and some still mix gender and sexuality so you can be trans and lesbian at the same time, for example.

For me personally, I can look back at my life as a kid now and realize that I was 'not straight' for a long time, but I didn't give myself a 'name' to it until I was much older.



When it comes to sexuality stuff - like being gay, lesbian, etc - experimentation is gonna happen.

Whenever I hear stories of "Oh I thought I was X but turns out I wasn't" I usually think of the person of either being Bi, or they were just not sure themselves.

When it comes to Gender, that's why the blockers are a big push/request. It allows for kids to pause puberty to find out if they are trans, or maybe just gender-fluid, or non-binary or whatever, for certain. And then they don't need to worry about puberty hitting and their bodies changing due to the hormones. It allows them to have a better chance of looking more like the gender they are, not what they were assigned at birth just because of a body part. It'll make transition easier. And they'll PASS, which is one of the biggest issues older Trans people have in their lives. Older Trans people didn't get blockers, so they have the effects of T or E on their bodies and while for trans men it's easier for them to pass as male, well we all know what it's like for Trans women. But kids with blockers don't get that hormone hit right away, until they know, and THEN they can be put on the proper hormones, which means their bodies will better look like the gender they are.

And in the end, the mental health of those kids is a hell of a lot better. When you look like the gender you are, it's a huge weight off of you, vs. when you don't pass.

Are there studies about the effects of “pausing puberty” with blockers (long term) and if a child changes their mind at a later day, can they kickstart puberty back in at a later date without issue?

 

[Ron in Regina]

This is interesting. I know a guy who is grandfather was hit by lightning three times….So weird stuff can happen.

Three Kids With Different Orientations???

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