A Harper majority would harm Canada and the world.

TenPenny

Hall of Fame Member
Jun 9, 2004
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That doesn't let you off the hook.

I gave you personal insight to where Free Trade/GST (Tory Policy) is not a good thing for working Canadians and you tried to deflect the ball out of their court. If you're in Ontario, do you enjoy paying crazy hydro bills due to Tory privatization then rewarding the CEOs who drove Hydro so deep in debt? In essence, we're doing our own billions dollar bail-out.

I couldn't follow how the GST and Free Trade actually hurt your business. I assume that your customers changed their supply chain to other sources. But I don't know if that's actually the case. I'm not sure how the GST regime factored into that either.
 

ottawabill

Electoral Member
May 27, 2005
909
8
18
Eastern Ontario
Hmm, yes, Free Trade was on the Tory platform.. here's a link to some of the hoopla.. http://archives.cbc.ca/economy_business/trade_agreements/topics/536/ for the history buff, for the music lover, there's even a clip of the Mulroney and Reagan, When Irish Eyes Are Smiling session.. and a debate with Mordecai Richler, where he takes the position that Free Trade won't hurt Canadian culture.. notable Richler quote...
"If I were trying to market this deal for the Tories I would run full page advertisements in newspapers throughout the other nine provinces. That ad would say "YOU CAN HELP SCREW ONTARIO. SUPPORT FREE TRADE." Of course the subject of the debate was culture, not ecomomy.. but he was right..
Whether the initial free trade agreement was good or not for Canada, isn't really the point I was trying to make though...
The point is what has happened with it since.. arguably the original intent..
Within a year, the US negotiated a similar deal with Mexico, and Canada pretty much had to follow. Goodbye Black and Decker.. Goodbye Westinghouse...
And subsequently, the doors have been opened to many countries, with a resulting influx of goods from abroad, more closures, and a reported diminishing of manufacturing across the country of 20 percent. It is in fact higher if gross sales from oil is not taken into account.
If you want to measure the long term effect of this policy, GO INTO ANY STORE YOU CHOOSE AND TRY TO FIND A SMALL APPLIANCE MADE IN CANADA.
You will find Mexico on some, but more China, Taiwan..

The fact of the matter is.. opening our doors to tariff free trade with economies around the world has resulted in a flood of products from abroad... and a damburst of bankruptcies and companies moving abroad to take advantage of cheap labour, in order to compete at all in our market.

We're pretty well in it now with the US, and were before free trade in fact.. we do run a surplus with our neighbour in gross sales [again oil.. but it's there.]

The aspect of free trade that needs to be addressed is worldwide trade, goods coming from outside the North American corridor. And frankly the US is in the same boat, and are feeling the pinch as well.

It is time our politicians put a tariff on goods from outside North America. The tariff should be equal to the tax that would be applicable to an equivalent item manufactured in Canada, and monies from the tax diverted into restarting industry within the country.

but truly this is not a conservative policy more then it is a consumer narrow mindedness. As long as everyone wants to always pay less this will occur. Free trade or not the worlds manuf. base has moved to China, no matter if your conservative Canada/U.S. or socialist Sweden you will still buy china because its cheap. You expect Black and Decker to stay here at 75% higher cost and tell the public to spend that much more because its right..ha!! Aint gonna happen..

I totally agree that this is not substainable, at some point the westwern consumer can not afford any product if they don't have good jobs to pay for them, hoqwever the problem is global and really has little to do with how is in power locally...Do you really think Westinghouse or Black and decker will be back making stuff in Ontario because the NDP are in power?
 

Avro

Time Out
Feb 12, 2007
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Oshawa
As much as I hate to admit it the GST or sales tax in general is better than a tax on income Something most economists would agree upon including Steven Harper, until he started pandering for votes.

Free trade is another one I support, this idea that Canada would hemorrhage jobs to the south was nothing more than fear mongering by the left and right wing protectionist. The fact is trade and investment in Canada has led to strong economic growth which is helped along by out trade surplus with the U.S.

There is a deal going on right now to expand this trade policy to the EU which is a good idea considering how forked up the U.S. is at the moment.
 

lone wolf

Grossly Underrated
Nov 25, 2006
32,493
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In the bush near Sudbury
I couldn't follow how the GST and Free Trade actually hurt your business. I assume that your customers changed their supply chain to other sources. But I don't know if that's actually the case. I'm not sure how the GST regime factored into that either.

GST caused a huge slump in housing sales, which in turn slowed down construction, which in turn slowed down concrete production. LaFarge Limited (an American company) cut costs by merging their Canadian companies into one company and eliminating contractors. My company was one of many contractors who hauled aggregates from pit to plant. No contract = no income. No income = no business.
 

ottawabill

Electoral Member
May 27, 2005
909
8
18
Eastern Ontario
As much as I hate to admit it the GST or sales tax in general is better than a tax on income Something most economists would agree upon including Steven Harper, until he started pandering for votes.

Free trade is another one I support, this idea that Canada would hemorrhage jobs to the south was nothing more than fear mongering by the left and right wing protectionist. The fact is trade and investment in Canada has led to strong economic growth which is helped along by out trade surplus with the U.S.

There is a deal going on right now to expand this trade policy to the EU which is a good idea considering how forked up the U.S. is at the moment.


Amen to all that!!
 

Avro

Time Out
Feb 12, 2007
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Oshawa
GST caused a huge slump in housing sales, which in turn slowed down construction, which in turn slowed down concrete production. LaFarge Limited (an American company) cut costs by merging their Canadian companies into one company and eliminating contractors. My company was one of many contractors who hauled aggregates from pit to plant. No contract = no imcome. No income = no business.

BS

The recession caused it.
 

ottawabill

Electoral Member
May 27, 2005
909
8
18
Eastern Ontario
housing market fell apart in the 90's for the same reason it's falling apart in the U.S. right now...overinflated market, fully financed properties with no assets to back them up. GST in 1991 had little to do with any of it...If so why the same results in the U.S.?

Do remember as well that the GST was a replacement tax not a new tax. the old manuf. tax was hidden but applied to most of the same items for construction as the gst. As well it was 10% (higher than the GST) The principal different is that you see the GST added ever time you pay for something.
 

TenPenny

Hall of Fame Member
Jun 9, 2004
17,467
139
63
Location, Location
GST caused a huge slump in housing sales, which in turn slowed down construction, which in turn slowed down concrete production. LaFarge Limited (an American company) cut costs by merging their Canadian companies into one company and eliminating contractors. My company was one of many contractors who hauled aggregates from pit to plant. No contract = no income. No income = no business.
Lafarge is actually a French company, with hq in Paris.
 

GreenFish66

House Member
Apr 16, 2008
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Harper promises more jobs through oil!....Is this a good future for Canada?.Or a dead end?...What r the alternatives?...There are always options..Don't give into Poison apples masquerading as healthy fruit trees!(lol).(Kinda used the ING direct commercial..for insight)...How about B.P, is that a good direction to go in? ...The Gst was reduced and the returns to gamblers at the casino's went down to make up for it!...lol...A percentage of the casino returns was to go to infrastructure and other such communitee programs...Haven't see a newly paved road for awhile...

Where does all the money go?
 

lone wolf

Grossly Underrated
Nov 25, 2006
32,493
210
63
In the bush near Sudbury
Nice ad hominem, care to respond to what I said this time or do you admit defeat?

You lefties are no different than the cons.:roll:

Any response to anything you say has to agree with what you want to hear or it can't be true. You're no different than any other wannabe, head-gaming troll.
 

ottawabill

Electoral Member
May 27, 2005
909
8
18
Eastern Ontario
Harper promises more jobs through oil!....Is this a good future for Canada?.Or a dead end?...What r the alternatives?...There are always options..Don't give into Poison apples masquerading as healthy fruit trees!(lol).(Kinda used the ING direct commercial..for insight)...How about B.P, is that a good direction to go in? ...The Gst was reduced and the returns to gamblers at the casino's went down to make up for it!...lol...A percentage of the casino returns was to go to infrastructure and other such communitee programs...Haven't see a newly paved road for awhile...

Where does all the money go?

GST is federal

Lotteries are provincial

not the same governments we are talking about
 

Avro

Time Out
Feb 12, 2007
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48
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Oshawa
Any response to anything you say has to agree with what you want to hear or it can't be true. You're no different than any other wannabe, head-gaming troll.

I see, so unless I agree with you I'm wrong.:roll:

You made a statement and I countered it, is that not what debate is?

Or, is it you can't think of a response and out of anger insulted me instead?

I think we both know the answer to that.
 

lone wolf

Grossly Underrated
Nov 25, 2006
32,493
210
63
In the bush near Sudbury
I see, so unless I agree with you I'm wrong.:roll:

You made a statement and I countered it, is that not what debate is?

Or, is it you can't think of a response and out of anger insulted me instead?

I think we both know the answer to that.

Avro, it is impossibe to debate with you because you are famous for your childish taunts and immature insults. I consider you to be a troll and give as good as I'll get. We've locked horns in the past, don't forget.

You won. Here's your trophy ..!.