Does God exist?

Northboy

Electoral Member
If it was intentional it was pretty cruel, it has cause 1000's of years of suffering, anger, hate, violence and pain. This is not the work of good, more like the work of evil.

I cant imagine any reason why. I believe the bible states God is compassionate, if he is compassionate then he would feel bad for those who suffer. How would he feel for causing this amount of pain and suffering. Seems to me it would be overwhelming.

When assessing conditions of the world, are we not told that the operation of the world is under the control of the "Prince of this World" at this time? We are told that he likes to generate sufferring.

You see, if God exists, then the enemy exists also.
 

ottawabill

Electoral Member
May 27, 2005
909
8
18
Eastern Ontario
Does god exist?

No.

Monotheists seem to think their god is omniscient yet they also claim they have free will but these two features are inconsistent and form a paradox, i.e, only one or the other is possible. You can't have perfect knowledge of the past and future (omniscience) and have free will (unpredictability), only one or the other is possible.

We know that we exist and to a certain extent have free will.

Therefore the Christian god, the Muslim god, and any other god claiming omniscience can not exist.

If, on the other hand, we say god does exist because we don't have free will (determinism) then again we hit the paradox: god can't be omniscient and still be free to act as he likes. Any actions he took he would have already known about (and consequences thereof) and therefore they would not be an act of free will. God would be more like a mountain or the sun (an object) than anything described in the bible or the koran.

If god is not omniscient then he (she/it) isn't really a god (due to limitations) and therefore not worthy of worship.

If god has no free will then he (she/it) isn't really a god (due to being an object i.e, a thing) and therefore not worthy of worship.

There simply is no god.

How unfortunate that you use earthly logic for you approach..There is no God because you can not see him. You can not see him because your not looking. It's no different in saying there is no Poland..I've never seen Poland, people tell me about it but why should I believe, what concrete proof do I have of Poland. If someone tells me I can get on a plane and see Poland I put my back up and say why would I waste time going to something I know doesn't exist. I really is no different. You are so sure there is no God that you can't see God alll around you. It is Man that forms sects It is man that causes was based on faiths, but God is convieient to blame.
 

Spocq

Electoral Member
Sep 8, 2008
122
1
18
When assessing conditions of the world, are we not told that the operation of the world is under the control of the "Prince of this World" at this time? We are told that he likes to generate sufferring.

You see, if God exists, then the enemy exists also.
I'm not talking about the suffering the "Prince of this World" has generated. I'm talking about the consequences of God's actions that are stated in the bible.
 

talloola

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 14, 2006
19,576
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You can not see him because your not looking. It's no different in saying there is no Poland..I've never seen Poland, people tell me about it but why should I believe, what concrete proof do I have of Poland. If someone tells me I can get on a plane and see Poland I put my back up and say why would I waste time going to something I know doesn't exist. quote]

Why would anyone think Poland doesn't exist, anyone can go and see Poland at any time,
it is there, and always will be there to physically see, touch and walk on.
 

ottawabill

Electoral Member
May 27, 2005
909
8
18
Eastern Ontario
You can not see him because your not looking. It's no different in saying there is no Poland..I've never seen Poland, people tell me about it but why should I believe, what concrete proof do I have of Poland. If someone tells me I can get on a plane and see Poland I put my back up and say why would I waste time going to something I know doesn't exist. quote]

Why would anyone think Poland doesn't exist, anyone can go and see Poland at any time,
it is there, and always will be there to physically see, touch and walk on.

and so is God..except the walk on part :)
 

Spocq

Electoral Member
Sep 8, 2008
122
1
18
Ah, but his actions were in reaction to conditions on the ground weren't they?

So how can you divide the two issues?
For what ever reasons he reacted in this manor doesn't change the consequences of his actions.
Violence generates violence no matter what reason the violence happens.
 

Scott Free

House Member
May 9, 2007
3,893
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BC
How unfortunate that you use earthly logic for you approach..There is no God because you can not see him. You can not see him because your not looking. It's no different in saying there is no Poland..I've never seen Poland, people tell me about it but why should I believe, what concrete proof do I have of Poland. If someone tells me I can get on a plane and see Poland I put my back up and say why would I waste time going to something I know doesn't exist. I really is no different. You are so sure there is no God that you can't see God alll around you. It is Man that forms sects It is man that causes was based on faiths, but God is convieient to blame.

I know there is a Poland because people have been there, I have met people from there and I have seen pictures. There is enough evidence to justify my belief that Poland exists but places like Atlantis or heaven are whole different stories.

You seem to have missed my point. I said there is no god as described in the bible or koran.

It's funny how these discussions always boil down to people claiming they would be willing call anything god. Are people really that unsure of themselves?

At which point I have to ask: why care about god at all then? Why not make your toaster a god since you have no idea what it is your "worshipping" why would it matter?

Study after study has clearly shown it doesn't matter. You would expect after enough drug tests, for example, scientists would have to make sure the religionists are in their own group so the miracles wouldn't mess with the statistics. Oddly that isn't a requirement?!?!

Ultimately your argument is sound. God could be anywhere, under the chair, in the sky, in a volcano, etc, just like dragons and pixies - they can turn up in the darnedest places.
 

MHz

Time Out
Mar 16, 2007
41,030
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Red Deer AB
I believe it states in the bible something like Gods chosen people would become the most prosperous. Who are the most prosperous of Gods people? Which faith? Which religion? .... If anyone knows this exact versus, Please post it here. Thanks
The Bible covers a set period of time, the chosen changed at various times during that period. At one time God fought for Israel (Exodus) at other times He fought against that (genetically) same group (Neb's exile into Babylon).
You question would seem to want an answer to a question about a 'movie' that is not yet over. God's people are the 'least prosperous' of all people (we are no dealing with Gentiles) so all the starving children are the ones He (hears) the most. The most affluent of the Gentiles would be the ones He is least pleased with and, should His return during the lives of those two different groups only one will see the light of the 1,000 years. Care to guess who will be there and who will not?

The prosperity of man is not complete until after sin and death are cast into the Lake, then you can count the heads.

The 'current chosen' are most likely in these groups.
M't:5:3: Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
M't:5:4: Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted.
M't:5:5: Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.
M't:5:6: Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.
M't:5:7: Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.
M't:5:8: Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.
M't:5:9: Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.
M't:5:10: Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
M't:5:11: Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.
M't:11:6: And blessed is he, whosoever shall not be offended in me.
M't:13:16: But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.
 

talloola

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 14, 2006
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I'm thankful for the athiests, for without them, no one would see the 'reality' of our world,
and appreciate what we have here on our earth, that is totally controlled by us and nature, and has nothing whatsoever to do with any god. Without my fellow athiests, I
would be worried that we will be overtaken by those who live in a world of fiction, and who are trying to push us into their way of thinking. The athiests are increasing in their
numbers as time goes on, and I feel secure in that fact.
Maybe in generations to come, the athiests will be the majority, and all of the religious
sillies, can fight with each other, over their gods, and will just be a small droan in the
background, and we will be running the world, from a realistic common sense and loving
approach.
 
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Spocq

Electoral Member
Sep 8, 2008
122
1
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MHz, its the one in exodus I'm talking about. I just wanted the verse if you know it off hand. I just wanted the exact wording of it cause I believe its relevant to what I was talking about.

I think the ones who will live for the 1,000 years are those who are able to stop making others suffer, eat properly, stay away from things that harm the body and give up all anger towards others. I believe that these are the things that puts stress on us and takes our lives. There might be other things we need to give up or stop that cause stress.
 

In Between Man

The Biblical Position
Sep 11, 2008
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49° 19' N, 123° 4' W
I, Alleywayzalwayz, would like to challenge the big question: Does God exist? I believe that I can lay down the strongest argument, philosophically and scientifically, for Intelligent Design of the Universe, or God if you will. I know there are some really kick ass debaters here, my friends Scott Free, Dexter Sinister, and others. But I'm going to try to bring everybody a rational, logical argument in favour of the existence in God. With all respect to the champion debaters, Mr. Free and Dex, I hope you are willing to believe that an intelligent person can believe in God. I whole heartily respect you guys and wanna prove my debating abilities. At the end of the day I may not win you guys over, but I would really like to stand next to you guys as a champion debater.

I've pondered over a lot of evidence and it's like trying to solve a puzzle, obviously, but even more, the puzzle box top. Remember, putting puzzles together, and you gotta look at the box top? That's why answering the big question is so hard, cuz not everyone is looking at the right box top.

I'm going to start with science. Cuz science is cool.

1. The cosmological argument

1916: Albert Einstein didn't like where his calculations were leading him. If his theory of relativity was true, it meant that the universe was not eternal but had a beginning. Einstein's calculations indeed were revealing a definite beginning to all time, all matter, and all space. This flew in the face of his belief that the universe was static and eternal. He called this discovery "irritating". He wanted the universe to be self-existent -- not reliant on any outside cause -- but the universe appeared to be one giant effect. Eistein so disliked the implications of general relativity -- a theory that's now proven accurate to five decimal places -- that he introduced a cosmological constant (called the fudge factor) into his equations in order to show that the universe is static and to avoid an absolute beginning.
1919: Comosologist Arthur Eddington disproves the fudge factor during an experiement during a solar eclipse. He confirmed that the theory of relativity was indeed true -- the universe was not static but had a beginning. Like Enstein, Eddington wasn't happy with the implications -- " Philosophically, the notion of a beginning of the present order of nature is repugnant to me.....I should like to find a genuine loophole."
1922: Russian mathematician Alexander Friedmann had officially exposed Enstein's fudge factor as an algebraic error. Incredibly, in his quest to avoid a beginning, Eistein had divided by zero -- something even school children know not to do! Meanwhile, same year, Dutch astronomer William de Sitter had found that general relativity required the universe to be expanding.
1927: The expanding of the universe is actually observed by astronomer Edwin Hubble. Hubble had discovered a "red shift" in the light from every observable galaxy, which meant that those galaxies were moving away from us. General relativiy was again confirmed -- the universe appears to be expanding from a single point in the distant past.

Now, this is the cosmological argument: If the universe had beginning, then the universe had a cause. In logical form, the argument goes like this --
1. Everthing that had a beginning had a cause.
2. The universe had a beginning.
3. Therefore the universe had a cause.

For an argument to be true it has to be logically valid, and its premise true. This a valid argument, but are the premise true? Let's look. Premise 1) -- Everything that had a beginning had a cause -- is the Law of Causality, which is the fundemental principle of science. Science is the search for causes. What causes what. If there's one thing we've observed about the universe, it's that things don't happen without a cause.

In fact, to deny the Law of Causality is to deny rationality. The very process for rational thinking requires us to put together thoughts (the causes) that result in conclusions (the effects). To deny this law is absurd.

Since the law of causality is well established and undeniable, premise 1 is true. Premise 2) -- Did the universe have a beginning? If not, then no cause was needed. If so, then the universe must have had a cause. Until the time of Einstein, atheists could comfort themselves with the belief that the universe is eternal, and thus did not need a cause. But since then, five lines of scientific evidence have been discovered that prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the universe did indeed have a beginning. And that beginning was what scientists now call "The Big Bang"

Okay, the next point to my case will be my next thread. I'm going to attempt to show, with evidence, how the this one giant effect, is under other laws that show order and design. Gotta go, cheers. ;)
 
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Dexter Sinister

Unspecified Specialist
Oct 1, 2004
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I, Alleywayzalwayz, would like to challenge the big question: Does God exist? I believe that I can lay down the strongest argument, philosophically and scientifically, for Intelligent Design of the Universe,
Well, okay my friend, give it your best shot, but if you're going where I think you're going with this, you've lost before you start. The Intelligent Design argument in all the forms I've seen it simply doesn't work, it's bankrupt, basically for two reasons. Most importantly, if you look closely enough what you'll see is an absence of design, the appearance of design is very superficial and fails close inspection. Second, the argument requires that you postulate a designer at some point, which demands another answer: who designed the designer? That logically leads to an infinite regress of ever more complex designers designing other designers, and where you stop it is entirely arbitrary. Before embarking on this quest I'd suggest you visit your local library or book store and get Richard Dawkin's book The Blind Watchmaker and Victor Stenger's God: The Failed Hypothesis.

If you still want to proceed, well, as I said, give it your best shot, and we'll see what shakes out. But if you come up with anything I haven't seen before, I'll be very surprised.
 

Vanni Fucci

Senate Member
Dec 26, 2004
5,239
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38
8th Circle, 7th Bolgia
the-brights.net
Hey Dex,

While this has little to do with or without the existence of god, I find this article interesting nonetheless...

http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/080923-dark-flows.html
Patches of matter in the universe seem to be moving at very high speeds and in a uniform direction that can't be explained by any of the known gravitational forces in the observable universe. Astronomers are calling the phenomenon "dark flow."

Dark flow + observable Higgs Boson = further understanding of a pre-Big Bang Universe...er multiverse or whatever.

Interesting times are ahead for quantum cosmologists I'm thinking...:cool:
 

MHz

Time Out
Mar 16, 2007
41,030
43
48
Red Deer AB
MHz, its the one in exodus I'm talking about. I just wanted the verse if you know it off hand. I just wanted the exact wording of it cause I believe its relevant to what I was talking about.
For using one single verse this would be fairly close.
Eze:37:25:
And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant,
wherein your fathers have dwelt;
and they shall dwell therein,
even they,
and their children,
and their children's children for ever:
and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.

This isn't meant to establish that 'back then' was the beginning, Christ is the last to occupy David's throne and that is a yet to be and this would include all people who would need a resurrection to be a living member of that group.
Even when that does happen Gentiles are still part of a separate group (for awhile) that enjoy being a part of the Kingdom of Heaven, so Israel is still not 'better'.
 

Spocq

Electoral Member
Sep 8, 2008
122
1
18
For using one single verse this would be fairly close.
Eze:37:25:
And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant,
wherein your fathers have dwelt;
and they shall dwell therein,
even they,
and their children,
and their children's children for ever:
and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.

This isn't meant to establish that 'back then' was the beginning, Christ is the last to occupy David's throne and that is a yet to be and this would include all people who would need a resurrection to be a living member of that group.
Even when that does happen Gentiles are still part of a separate group (for awhile) that enjoy being a part of the Kingdom of Heaven, so Israel is still not 'better'.
That is not the one I'm looking for. It speaks about God promising his chosen people much prosperity, that they will be the most prosperous if I'm not mistaken.
 

ahmadabdalrhman

Electoral Member
Sep 14, 2008
379
4
18
www.watchislam.com
Hey Dex,

While this has little to do with or without the existence of god, I find this article interesting nonetheless...

SPACE.com -- Mysterious New 'Dark Flow' Discovered in Space


Dark flow + observable Higgs Boson = further understanding of a pre-Big Bang Universe...er multiverse or whatever.

Interesting times are ahead for quantum cosmologists I'm thinking...:cool:



[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The Expansion of the Universe[/FONT]​





[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]In the Qur’an, which was revealed 14 centuries ago at a time when the science of astronomy was still primitive, the expansion of the universe was described like this:
( And it is We who have constructed the heaven with might, and verily, it is We who are steadily expanding it.)(Surat adh-Dhariyat: 47)
The word “heaven”, as stated in this verse, is used in various places in the Qur’an with the meaning of space and universe. Here again, the word is used with this meaning. In other words, in the Qur’an, it is communicated that the universe “expands”.
And this is the very conclusion that science has reached today.
Until the dawn of the 20th century, the only view prevailing in the world of science was that “the universe has a constant nature and it has existed since infinite time”. The research, observations, and calculations carried out by means of modern technology, however, revealed that the universe in fact had a beginning and that it constantly expands.
At the beginning of the 20th century, the Russian physicist Alexander Friedmann and the Belgian cosmologist Georges Lemaitre theoretically calculated that the universe is in constant motion and that it is expanding.
This fact was proved also by observational data in 1929. While observing the sky with a telescope, Edwin Hubble, the American astronomer, discovered that the stars and galaxies were constantly moving away from each other. A universe where everything constantly moves away from each other implied a constantly expanding universe. The observations carried out in the following years verified that the universe constantly expands. This fact was explained in the Qur’an when it was yet unknown by anyone. This is because the Qur’an is the word of God, the Creator, and the Ruler of the entire universe.



From the moment of the big bang, the universe has been constantly expanding at a great speed. Scientists compare the expanding universe to the surface of a balloon that is inflated.




[/FONT]


:p:p:p:p:p


Moderator's Edit: Link removed.
 
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MHz

Time Out
Mar 16, 2007
41,030
43
48
Red Deer AB
That is not the one I'm looking for. It speaks about God promising his chosen people much prosperity, that they will be the most prosperous if I'm not mistaken.
Any verse from the OT would have had to be in a section that dealt with future prophecy, as they are said to go into exile at least several times. It wouldn't make much sense to declare that as being in effect right then and there and then have some of them suffer the sword.
Eze:39:23:
And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity:
because they trespassed against me,
therefore hid I my face from them,
and gave them into the hand of their enemies:
so fell they all by the sword.

Even in that passage there is a promise of salvation in the last few verses of that chapter.

This little side-trip has nothing to do with proving if God exists.

Dexter made an argument for who created the creator (or something along that line). "That logically leads to an infinite regress of ever more complex designers designing other designers, and where you stop it is entirely arbitrary." to be exact.
God only claimed to make Heaven (the observable universe, using whatever instruments we can conjure up) would be that and the Earth would be a sub-section of the Heavens (any point above the place we walk on). God could not be in our Heavens before it was created, so there should be 'something' beyond what we can observe. The Bible says there is such a place,
2Co:12:2:
I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago,
(whether in the body,
I cannot tell;
or whether out of the body,
I cannot tell:
God knoweth;)
such an one caught up to the third heaven.

Does science have any opinion of the existence (pro or con) of such a place? Here is another bit of information.
Heb:12:22: But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

Since this if from Judgment Day, men and angels are without their original homes. Earth for men and Heaven for the Angels.