Our Glorious Afghan Mission

quandary121

Time Out
Apr 20, 2008
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How a ‘Good War’ in Afghanistan Went Bad
Tyler Hicks/The New York Times
American soldiers during an operation in Zabul Province in 2006. More Photos >


Published: August 12, 2007
Correction Appended
Two years after the Taliban fell to an American-led coalition, a group of NATO ambassadors landed in Kabul, Afghanistan, to survey what appeared to be a triumph — a fresh start for a country ripped apart by years of war with the Soviets and brutal repression by religious extremists.
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With a senior American diplomat, R. Nicholas Burns, leading the way, they thundered around the country in Black Hawk helicopters, with little fear for their safety. They strolled quiet streets in Kandahar and sipped tea with tribal leaders. At a briefing from the United States Central Command, they were told that the Taliban were now a “spent force.”
“Some of us were saying, ‘Not so fast,’ ” Mr. Burns, now the under secretary of state for political affairs, recalled. “While not a strategic threat, a number of us assumed that the Taliban was too enmeshed in Afghan society to just disappear.”
But that skepticism had never taken hold in Washington. Since the 2001 war, American intelligence agencies had reported that the Taliban were so decimated they no longer posed a threat, according to two senior intelligence officials who reviewed the reports.
The American sense of victory had been so robust that the top C.I.A. specialists and elite Special Forces units who had helped liberate Afghanistan had long since moved on to the next war, in Iraq.
Those sweeping miscalculations were part of a pattern of assessments and decisions that helped send what many in the American military call “the good war” off course.
Like Osama bin Laden and his deputies, the Taliban had found refuge in Pakistan and regrouped as the American focus wavered. Taliban fighters seeped back over the border, driving up the suicide attacks and roadside bombings by as much as 25 percent this spring, and forcing NATO and American troops into battles to retake previously liberated villages in southern Afghanistan.
They have scored some successes recently, and since the 2001 invasion, there have been improvements in health care, education and the economy, as well as the quality of life in the cities. But Afghanistan’s embattled president, Hamid Karzai, said in Washington last week that security in his country had “definitely deteriorated.” One former national security official called that “a very diplomatic understatement.”
President Bush’s critics have long contended that the Iraq war has diminished America’s effort in Afghanistan, which the administration has denied, but an examination of how the policy unfolded within the administration reveals a deep divide over how to proceed in Afghanistan and a series of decisions that at times seemed to relegate it to an afterthought as Iraq unraveled.
Statements from the White House, including from the president, in support of Afghanistan were resolute, but behind them was a halting, sometimes reluctant commitment to solving Afghanistan’s myriad problems, according to dozens of interviews in the United States, at NATO headquarters in Brussels and in Kabul, the Afghan capital.
At critical moments in the fight for Afghanistan, the Bush administration diverted scarce intelligence and reconstruction resources to Iraq, including elite C.I.A. teams and Special Forces units involved in the search for terrorists. As sophisticated Predator spy planes rolled off assembly lines in the United States, they were shipped to Iraq, undercutting the search for Taliban and terrorist leaders, according to senior military and intelligence officials.
As defense secretary, Donald H. Rumsfeld claimed credit for toppling the Taliban with light, fast forces. But in a move that foreshadowed America’s trouble in Iraq, he failed to anticipate the need for more forces after the old government was gone, and blocked an early proposal from Colin L. Powell, then the secretary of state, and Mr. Karzai, the administration’s handpicked president, for a large international force. As the situation deteriorated, Mr. Rumsfeld and other administration officials reversed course and cajoled European allies into sending troops.
When it came to reconstruction, big goals were announced, big projects identified. Yet in the year Mr. Bush promised a “Marshall Plan” for Afghanistan, the country received less assistance per capita than did postconflict Bosnia and Kosovo, or even desperately poor Haiti, according to a RAND Corporation study. Washington has spent an average of $3.4 billion a year reconstructing Afghanistan, less than half of what it has spent in Iraq, according to the Congressional Research Service.
The White House contends that the troop level in Afghanistan was increased when needed and that it now stands at 23,500. But a senior American commander said that even as the military force grew last year, he was surprised to discover that “I could count on the fingers of one or two hands the number of U.S. government agricultural experts” in Afghanistan, where 80 percent of the economy is agricultural. A $300 million project authorized by Congress for small businesses was never financed.
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/12/world/asia/12afghan.html
 

darkbeaver

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Jan 26, 2006
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US 'killed 47 Afghan civilians'


Medical staff help a boy injured in Sunday's attack

A US air strike in eastern Afghanistan on Sunday killed 47 civilians, 39 of them women and children, an Afghan government investigating team says.
Reports at the time said that 20 people were killed in the airstrike in Nangarhar province. The US military said they were militants.
But local people said the dead were wedding party guests.
Correspondents say the issue of civilian casualties is hugely sensitive in Afghanistan.
President Hamid Karzai has said that no civilian casualty is acceptable.

Demand for trial
Mr Karzai set up a nine-man commission to look into Sunday's incident.
The commission is headed by Senate deputy speaker, Burhanullah Shinwari whose constituency is in Nangarhar province. He told the BBC: ''Our investigation found out that 47 civilians (were killed) by the American bombing and nine others injured.






Concern over Afghan civilian deaths


"There are 39 women and children" among those killed, he said. The eight other people who died were "between the ages of 14 and 18".
A spokeswoman for the US coalition, Lt Rumi Nielson-Green told the AFP news agency that the force was also investigating the incident and regretted any loss of civilian life. "We never target non-combatants. We do go to great length to avoid civilian casualties," she said.
At the time the US said that those killed were militants involved in previous mortar attacks on a Nato base.
The incident happened in the remote district of Deh Bala, close to the Afghan border.
Mirwais Yasini, deputy speaker for the lower house of parliament, also has his constituency in Nangarhar. ''We are very sad about the killings in Deh Bala. People should be compensated," he told the BBC.
"These operations widen the gap between the people and the government."
He said that those who passed on intelligence to the US military ahead of the air strike should be tried, "as well as those who carried out the bombing".
Mr Yasini demanded that "all operations should be conducted in full co-operation with our security forces in the future".
'Ashamed'
Cor
 

darkbeaver

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Jan 26, 2006
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It's not possible to destroy Afghanistan any further. When the Reagan administration gathered the most crazed fanatics in the world and dumped them in Afghanistan the country collapsed. Prior to 79 it was a normal country, then it was reduced to dust. I remember when the Taliban wanted to put pants on donkeys. There countries infrastructure was destroyed. The Soviet Union and the United States are responsible for whats happened to the Afghan people in the past 30 years, and the US is at least in principle trying to live up to its great moral obligation to the Afghan people.

It is possible to destroy Afghanistan further. The US has no moral obligation, it has no morals, it has only the conquest and murder of the totalitarian imperial police state to offer the world.
 

scratch

Senate Member
May 20, 2008
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Doubts over US Afghan operation

Anger is growing over civilian casualties in Afghanistan



http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/7510941.stm
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Again civilians got killed and wounded! I wonder how much longer the Afghan people will put up with this?
That bloody pipeline!

It will not end anytime soon. Bet on it. The 'Roos have a mission and do not differentiate between civilians and the enemy. Just a repeat of their war crimes in Viet Nam.
 

dancing-loon

House Member
Oct 8, 2007
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It's not possible to destroy Afghanistan any further. When the Reagan administration gathered the most crazed fanatics in the world and dumped them in Afghanistan the country collapsed. Prior to 79 it was a normal country, then it was reduced to dust. I remember when the Taliban wanted to put pants on donkeys. Their country's infrastructure was destroyed. The Soviet Union and the United States are responsible for whats happened to the Afghan people in the past 30 years, and the US is at least in principle trying to live up to its great moral obligation to the Afghan people.
Hi, Tim;
how's it going? Enjoying yourself?;-)
What do you mean with, "Taliban wanted to put pants on donkeys"? For real, or is that a funny saying? Or do you want to express how crazed they were?

I informed myself about the Reagan involvement in Afghanistan. It is staggering!
[FONT=times new roman, serif]From the Soviet invasion onward, the United States sought ways to back the anti-Soviet forces. By 1983, the CIA was purchasing assault rifles, grenade launchers, mines, and SA-7 light antiaircraft weapons, totaling 10,000 tons, mainly from China. The Reagan administration had them shipped to Pakistan, a country that at the time was working closely with Washington. [/FONT]
[FONT=times new roman, serif]Then, in a move that marked a turning point in the relentless war, in 1985, President Ronald Reagan made a secret decision to escalate covert support to the mujahidin. Soon after, the CIA began to supply an extensive array of intelligence, military expertise and advanced weapons to the Muslim rebel forces. They included satellite reconnaissance data of Soviet targets in Afghanistan; Soviet plans for military operations based on satellite intelligence and intercepts of Soviet communications; covert communication technology for the rebels; detonating devices for tons of C-4 explosives for urban targets; long-range sniper rifles; a targeting system linked to a U.S. Navy satellite; and wire-guided anti-tank missiles.[SIZE=-1]1[/SIZE] Furthermore, amidst intensifying debate within the CIA over the extent of U.S. involvement in the war, Reagan made the decision to equip the mujahidin with sophisticated U.S.-made Stinger antiaircraft missiles. American-trained Pakistani officers were sent to Afghanistan to set up a secret mujahidin Stinger training facility, which was complete with a U.S.-made electronic simulator. By 1987, the CIA was sending a steady supply of 65,000 tons of arms to the mujahidin.[/FONT]
[FONT=times new roman, serif]Anyway, [/FONT][FONT=times new roman,serif]h[/FONT]elp is coming to Afghanistan! The Taliban get reinforcements from various countries...
Afghanistan has been drawing a fresh influx of jihadi fighters from Turkey, Central Asia, Chechnya and the Middle East, one more sign that al-Qaeda is regrouping on what is fast becoming the most active front of the war on terrorist groups.
......
For the past two months, Afghanistan has overtaken Iraq in deaths of U.S. and allied troops, and nine American soldiers were killed at a remote base in Kunar province Sunday in the deadliest attack in years.
I guess the tables have turned!

Read the complete story here:
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servl...rnational/home
 

dancing-loon

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Oct 8, 2007
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What is going on??!!!

At least four friendly fire incidents this past month, and now this one...
Coalition 'bombs Afghan police'

At least 13 Afghan police and civilians have died in two incidents involving international forces, officials say.

Four Afghan police and five civilians died in an apparently mistaken air strike by international coalition forces in Farah province.

Separately, the Nato-led Isaf said it had "accidentally" killed at least four civilians in Paktika province.

The incidents are the latest in a series of controversial clashes involving foreign troops.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/7515915.stm
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When will America finally sit down and negotiate with the Taliban? When will they come to their senses?
Obama has said he would increase American forces in Afghanistan. As I mentioned in my previous post, the Taliban are already increasing their forces.

Imagine, in the middle of this bloody battle are the Afghan people, trying to live a normal life! The casualties among them can only increase with more troop deployment.

This American war is an irresponsible act of terror against the Afghan population, a total disregard for civilian life! These deadly "accidents" amount to war crimes... the entire war is a crime against humanity!!!

When will the UN stand up and condemn this illegal war?
 

scratch

Senate Member
May 20, 2008
5,658
22
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What is going on??!!!

At least four friendly fire incidents this past month, and now this one...
Coalition 'bombs Afghan police'

At least 13 Afghan police and civilians have died in two incidents involving international forces, officials say.

Four Afghan police and five civilians died in an apparently mistaken air strike by international coalition forces in Farah province.

Separately, the Nato-led Isaf said it had "accidentally" killed at least four civilians in Paktika province.

The incidents are the latest in a series of controversial clashes involving foreign troops.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/7515915.stm
---------------------------------------------------------------
When will America finally sit down and negotiate with the Taliban? When will they come to their senses?
Obama has said he would increase American forces in Afghanistan. As I mentioned in my previous post, the Taliban are already increasing their forces.

Imagine, in the middle of this bloody battle are the Afghan people, trying to live a normal life! The casualties among them can only increase with more troop deployment.

This American war is an irresponsible act of terror against the Afghan population, a total disregard for civilian life! These deadly "accidents" amount to war crimes... the entire war is a crime against humanity!!!

When will the UN stand up and condemn this illegal war?

The UN can set up sanctions but what else. It is a FORUM way past its prime!
 

Zzarchov

House Member
Aug 28, 2006
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What is going on??!!!

At least four friendly fire incidents this past month, and now this one...
Coalition 'bombs Afghan police'

At least 13 Afghan police and civilians have died in two incidents involving international forces, officials say.

Four Afghan police and five civilians died in an apparently mistaken air strike by international coalition forces in Farah province.

Separately, the Nato-led Isaf said it had "accidentally" killed at least four civilians in Paktika province.

The incidents are the latest in a series of controversial clashes involving foreign troops.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/7515915.stm
---------------------------------------------------------------
When will America finally sit down and negotiate with the Taliban? When will they come to their senses?
Obama has said he would increase American forces in Afghanistan. As I mentioned in my previous post, the Taliban are already increasing their forces.

Imagine, in the middle of this bloody battle are the Afghan people, trying to live a normal life! The casualties among them can only increase with more troop deployment.

This American war is an irresponsible act of terror against the Afghan population, a total disregard for civilian life! These deadly "accidents" amount to war crimes... the entire war is a crime against humanity!!!

When will the UN stand up and condemn this illegal war?

How is this an Illegal war?

The Taleban where foriegn colonial forces who never ruled Afghanistan. The Northern Alliance still controlled half the country when they INVITED THE US IN.

Why on earth would the Afghan people have the US negotiate on their behalf with a foreign invading army (the Taleban).

As for war, didn't you grow up in Nazi Germany DL? When you throw bombs around they don't always land on target.

Thats why war is a bad thing. Its not a war crime if your bombs hit the wrong targets and kill civilians. It is not , nor has it ever been. Its a war crime if you bombs hit the right targets and kill civilians.

War is not a clean sterile thing, and it never will be.
 

dancing-loon

House Member
Oct 8, 2007
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How is this an Illegal war?

The Taleban where foreign colonial forces who never ruled Afghanistan. The Northern Alliance still controlled half the country when they INVITED THE US IN.

Why on earth would the Afghan people have the US negotiate on their behalf with a foreign invading army (the Taleban).

As for war, didn't you grow up in Nazi Germany DL? When you throw bombs around they don't always land on target.

Thats why war is a bad thing. Its not a war crime if your bombs hit the wrong targets and kill civilians. It is not , nor has it ever been. Its a war crime if your bombs hit the right targets and kill civilians.

War is not a clean sterile thing, and it never will be.
Hi, Zzarchov;
I say it is an illegal war, because the Americans are not being attacked, they don't need to defend themselves! I'm sure you know as well as I do why they are there... to drive out the Taliban, who are Afghans, so they can go ahead with their oil export plans.
To my knowledge they were NOT INVITED IN!

Nobody invited the US in!!! They went there according to their plans which were drawn up way before 9/11.

The Taliban are a group of freedom fighters which formed during the war against the Soviet occupation. They are Afghans mostly.
True, they didn't rule Afghanistan, but then they did. Who's business is it anyway? The US, of course!:roll: They didn't want the Russians there, and so they helped the Taliban fight them. Now the Americans want to control Afghanistan, but the Taliban don't like that either... hence the war.

By negotiating with the Taliban I meant to get clearance for the gas and pipelines the Americans want to run through the country. Nothing else. You know very well about that, it has been discussed here.

Of course I know about bombing the wrong targets! But does it have to be repeated 69 years later for no other reason than greed? Canada is not being bombed, the US is not being bombed, neither is Briton and other Nato countries!!! Come down onto the carpet of reality, Zzarchov! Both wars, in Iraq and Afghanistan, are wars to satisfy American's quest for dominance of strategic areas as they relate to oil-rich countries.

Yes, in this case it is a crime to bomb civilians!!! It is a crime to invade and destruct Afghanistan!! The Afghans have done no harm to the Americans, or can you show me otherwise? Many times the Afghans have asked for the foreign troops to leave.

At least we are in agreement that war is a bad thing! Unfortunately, the Americans don't think so... they thrive on wars, as their history clearly shows.
 

scratch

Senate Member
May 20, 2008
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Hi, Zzarchov;
I say it is an illegal war, because the Americans are not being attacked, they don't need to defend themselves! I'm sure you know as well as I do why they are there... to drive out the Taliban, who are Afghans, so they can go ahead with their oil export plans.
To my knowledge they were NOT INVITED IN!

Nobody invited the US in!!! They went there according to their plans which were drawn up way before 9/11.

The Taliban are a group of freedom fighters which formed during the war against the Soviet occupation. They are Afghans mostly.
True, they didn't rule Afghanistan, but then they did. Who's business is it anyway? The US, of course!:roll: They didn't want the Russians there, and so they helped the Taliban fight them. Now the Americans want to control Afghanistan, but the Taliban don't like that either... hence the war.

By negotiating with the Taliban I meant to get clearance for the gas and pipelines the Americans want to run through the country. Nothing else. You know very well about that, it has been discussed here.

Of course I know about bombing the wrong targets! But does it have to be repeated 69 years later for no other reason than greed? Canada is not being bombed, the US is not being bombed, neither is Briton and other Nato countries!!! Come down onto the carpet of reality, Zzarchov! Both wars, in Iraq and Afghanistan, are wars to satisfy American's quest for dominance of strategic areas as they relate to oil-rich countries.

Yes, in this case it is a crime to bomb civilians!!! It is a crime to invade and destruct Afghanistan!! The Afghans have done no harm to the Americans, or can you show me otherwise? Many times the Afghans have asked for the foreign troops to leave.

At least we are in agreement that war is a bad thing! Unfortunately, the Americans don't think so... they thrive on wars, as their history clearly shows.


And they have another one brewing in the pot!
 

Zzarchov

House Member
Aug 28, 2006
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Dancing Loon

The USA was invited in by Afghanistani people. This group.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Islamic_Front_for_the_Salvation_of_Afghanistan

The Taliban were Pakistani and of a different ethnic group than most of Afghanistan.

The Taliban were driven out by Northern Alliance forces with US air support. The Northern Alliance asked America to help them rebuild and prevent the Taliban from coming back in from Pakistan and reconquering the region.

The Taliban are not Afghanistani, but Pakistani (Pashtun) They are fierce nationalist who sought to supress other Afghanistani Ethnic Groups (ie the majority) and establish a colonial muslim empire. The US forces were asked in to help Afghanistan rebuild by the Northern Alliance.

And no Dancing Loon, it is a crime to INTENTIONALLY bomb civilians. In wars, people die. Wars are not sterile and more civilians that soldiers always die, because losing forces try and hide their soldiers among civilians.
 

darkbeaver

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Jan 26, 2006
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Dancing Loon

The USA was invited in by Afghanistani people. This group.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Islamic_Front_for_the_Salvation_of_Afghanistan

The Taliban were Pakistani and of a different ethnic group than most of Afghanistan.

The Taliban were driven out by Northern Alliance forces with US air support. The Northern Alliance asked America to help them rebuild and prevent the Taliban from coming back in from Pakistan and reconquering the region.

The Taliban are not Afghanistani, but Pakistani (Pashtun) They are fierce nationalist who sought to supress other Afghanistani Ethnic Groups (ie the majority) and establish a colonial muslim empire. The US forces were asked in to help Afghanistan rebuild by the Northern Alliance.

And no Dancing Loon, it is a crime to INTENTIONALLY bomb civilians. In wars, people die. Wars are not sterile and more civilians that soldiers always die, because losing forces try and hide their soldiers among civilians.

They're called Afghans Zzarchov, why not familiarize yourself with the country and it's recent history before you embarass yourself further. Wikepedia is not thought of as a relible source of information about imperial crime sights, seems it's constantly revised to reflect a perspective peculiar to a middle eastern fascist theocracy and its imperial actuating appendage.
Afghans Zzarchov.:smile:
 

Zzarchov

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Aug 28, 2006
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Actually Afghan refers to Pashtun as a "whole" group.

Afghani refers to Afghan citizens, differentiating between the traditional view of "Pan Pashtun" and the split between Pakistani and Afghani pashtuns and the cultural changes that arose between the two groups.

So, no, its not Afghans.
 

darkbeaver

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They're Afghans Zzarchov, stop being obtuse. Jesusss just let me win one argument for christ sake you always have to be right and you never call me and we never go to my mothers for a visit, what kind of relationship did I get into.And get your ****ing feet off the coffee table.:smile:
 

dancing-loon

House Member
Oct 8, 2007
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Dancing Loon

The USA was invited in by Afghanistani people. This group.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Islamic_Front_for_the_Salvation_of_Afghanistan

The Taliban were Pakistani and of a different ethnic group than most of Afghanistan.

The Taliban were driven out by Northern Alliance forces with US air support. The Northern Alliance asked America to help them rebuild and prevent the Taliban from coming back in from Pakistan and reconquering the region.

The Taliban are not Afghanistani, but Pakistani (Pashtun) They are fierce nationalist who sought to supress other Afghanistani Ethnic Groups (ie the majority) and establish a colonial muslim empire. The US forces were asked in to help Afghanistan rebuild by the Northern Alliance.

And no Dancing Loon, it is a crime to INTENTIONALLY bomb civilians. In wars, people die. Wars are not sterile and more civilians than soldiers always die, because losing forces try and hide their soldiers among civilians.
I'm short of time, but will answer you back as good as I can without searching the Internet.

May I ask you, dear Zzarchov, do you remember the 9/11 event and the immediate accusation that bin Laden was responsible? He was hiding in the mountenous border region of Afghanistan and Pakistan. The US bombed ceaselessly to try to kill him and his party. It was said he was hiding in some tunnels in the mountains. To this day they have not caught him, and probably never wanted to in the first place. But they killed hundreds, if not thousands of innocent tribal Afghans. Thousands fled across the border to Pakistan, where they most likely still are sitting in some refuge camps.
The Americans went to war to capture bin Laden, but secretly to remove the Taliban who were opposed to the pipeline project.

It now is propagated their main reason was to free the poor Afghans from the clutches of the Taliban! They gladly did that, because it served their own interest.

Do you realize how the events have been changed, just like in Iraq? The Americans want to portray themselves as the saviours who come and fight and remove the evil villain in far away countries. Here the Taliban, there Saddam Hussein, next Ahmadineshad.
It is confusing, to say the least, but that might be their intent... obscure their original intentions and footprints.

Some time ago I read about how the former colonists, the Brits, had unfairly, without much regard for the ethnic groups, divided Afghanistan, and that is causing a lot of trouble now, because a whole chunk ended up in Pakistan. I would have to read it again to give you more details for a better understanding... even for myself.

Taliban, I read, are Islamic religious scholars, mainly from Southern Afghanistan. We could both be right, as the border to Pakistan is very porous.
 

Zzarchov

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Pakistani and Afhani Pashtuns do have a similar history, but they have had major cultural shifts (like between the various Arab nations) and are now distinct groups.
 

darkbeaver

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Afghan pipeline raises security questions

By Travis Lupick

Global Research, July 21, 2008
straight.com

Afghanistan’s ambassador to Canada says NATO’s military mission has nothing to do with a proposed massive pipeline project that will bring natural gas to his country’s neighbours. In a phone interview with the Georgia Straight, Omar Samad said the $7.6-billion pipeline won’t be finished before Canadian troops are scheduled to leave Afghanistan in 2011.
“So I fail to see what the relationship of this pipeline is with the Canadian mission,” Samad said from Ottawa.
On June 19, the left-leaning Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives published a report questioning the feasibility of the pipeline project, given the strength of the Taliban insurgency. Samad, however, said that the Afghan army and local security forces would provide security for the pipeline. “If there is a need to do something different,” he continued, “we will discuss it with whomever will be interested to do so, down the road…beyond the Canadian mission.”
The proposed Turkmenistan-Afghanistan-India-Pakistan pipeline (TAPI) could generate as much as $300 million in annual revenue for the Afghan government, Samad said. Afghanistan’s National Development Strategy lists the country’s projected domestic revenue for March 21, 2008, to March 20, 2009, as $887 million.



Many of the contributors to this thread should rethink thier ideas of pipelines, us dumb Canadians have been saving a pipeline route and helping to neutralize the rightfull owners/stakeholders. Isn't that at odds with what our Dept of Sucking Bankers has been telling us. The Canadian public has been under the impression that we've been over there instructing Afghans about the wonders of the modern western consumer society and sending millions of children to schools not to mention Wal-Fart and Tim Snortins.
 
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