Does God exist?
- Thread starter Kreskin
- Start date
multiplying theories unnecessarily. Therein lies a sticking point with me Dex. If you can feel the presence of 'God', if you have that tug, that underlying sense, then the unnecessary conclusion becomes the one that denies that.
Funny you should ask, I have several million tons of rock for sale at my quarry.
the unnessary conclusion that denies the tug of god? if that's what you mean that's beautiful in it's implication ain't it?
There you go, that wasn't hard was it. I don't need to be hit on the head like a rock,
just the appearance on this earth, and a miracle or two in my face would do, and even
then, our present day magicians are so good, their tricks might be confused with a real
miracle, so, that wouldn't really do it either.
Of course we want quantifiable evidence, just like any proven theory, makes it final and
honest.
People's imaginations are amazing and wonderful, just go and watch science fiction or horror
movies, our brains are complicated and very capable of inventing anything, and instilling fear
and obedience into themselves by believing what they imagine.
-
Formerly, when religion was strong and science weak, men mistook magic for medicine; now, when science is strong and religion weak, men mistake medicine for magic.Thomas Szasz, The Second Sin (1973)
Agreed, that kind of evidence might be satisfactory to some, but it's not really evidence in any way that makes sense to me. It's entirely subjective, you can't point to it and share it with anyone, all anyone can get is your report on it. I'd argue further that you cannot really know if it's actually the presence of god you're feeling, it's just how people choose to interpret a particular emotional state. Most of us in fact are raised to interpret it that way, it's deeply rooted in our cultural conditioning. I was raised that way myself, and I bought it for most of two decades, but I am now apostate, for reasons that need not concern us here and nobody would have the patience to read all the way through anyway. I don't think I have the patience to write it all down either. That'd be a *very* long post, at least five times as long as anything quandary's ever posted.
Postulating the existence of a supernatural being that has some interest in us as the source of that feeling is really quite an extraordinary claim. Anecdotal evidence like that-- and that's really the only kind of evidence there is for it--simply isn't good enough to establish it.
Ah, now see, that's a leap I'm not willing to take... to say 'God is a supernatural being'. 'God' exists. I can feel it. I can reach to that place in my mind and touch it as clearly as I can reach out with my hand and touch the table next to me. I can try to explain each one to you, but words can only explain so much, and without touching and feeling it yourself, you'd have no comparative sensation to understand what I was saying.
What I can't do is say 'God is...' Because shoot, we can barely even really say with certainty what the table I can reach out and touch is, or what the world REALLY looks like. We can tell how our brains sense it, interpret it, but, not everything that could be there. The sense of God is exactly the same to me.
It's there... no mistaking it for me.
Okay... I'm gonna try to keep my jet lagged brain on the lighter subjects, because I'm sure I'm making little sense. lol.
Could it be the problem in accepting a Higher Power comes with the illusion God is some supernatural being who lives in the clouds and zaps the occasional sinner with a lightning bolt? That's a clergy slant on it. Keep it simple to keep man under their thumb.
The Church may frown (So what? Me and organized religion aren't exactly on the friendliest of terms) but to me, God is humility - a sense of awe in knowing something is bigger than me. God is conscience - that part of me who, if allowed to go wild, wouldn't care about anyone but my own wants (hence, the guilt if I hurt another without just cause) God is Good Order and Discipline.
The Church may frown (So what? Me and organized religion aren't exactly on the friendliest of terms) but to me, God is humility - a sense of awe in knowing something is bigger than me. God is conscience - that part of me who, if allowed to go wild, wouldn't care about anyone but my own wants (hence, the guilt if I hurt another without just cause) God is Good Order and Discipline.
Last edited:
Human connectedness would be the closest thing I can describe to it wolf, and in that your view is not far off from mine. I've seen and experienced too many 'phenomena', knowledge that I'm supposedly not supposed to have for example, to not think that there is something much deeper connecting us all.
In the true Buddhist answer my grandfather gave me: if you believe, he exists, if you do not believe, he does not exist. It's the same answer for life after death ... if you believe, it exists, if you do not believe, it doesn't exist.
No point in begging the question, eh.
No point in begging the question, eh.
Occam's razor is best illustrated in law when looking at prosecution and finding it difficult to determine what really happened ... after looking at it all, eliminating that which can be proven one way or another, whatever remains; no matter how improbable, is what happens ... it's the simple solution. It's the glaring truth without the convolutions that people want to spin in law and elsewhere.
God exists for those that believe, and not for those that don't believe ... it's a state of mind, I suppose. Occam's razor does not imply that when all other possibilities are exhausted, the glaring truth is that God exists ... not.
Some people need the existence of a God like figure, or mental image, in order for them to make choice, focus, centre themselves, know the difference between good and evil, believe in themselves, have confidence in their own futures ... so be it ... no reason to question why someone is happy with, for example, a favourite pen while another wants an belief in an invisible force. Makes no difference ... everyone draws strength from something ... hopefully.
Yes, I got that much, but I'm arguing that what you've really got is a feeling you interpret as meaning that god exists. That's not to denigrate it, it's merely to label it more precisely, but your interpretation may not be correct. There's no way to verify whether it is or not, but there are simpler explanations for the feeling than postulating a deity, with all the thorny issues of good and evil and the suffering of innocents and so on that that leads to. That's where Occam's Razor enters.
That's essentially my point. The only evidence you've got can't be shared, it exists only inside your own head. Evidence like that is not admissible in any other sphere of human activity as far as I know, it's not even considered to be evidence.
Only religious convictions get that free ride, and I don't think they're entitled to it. People can toss out any stupid idea they like and it'll get roundly criticized, but slap the label "religion" on it and suddenly it automatically deserves respect and legal protection and tax free status and other little perks. Scientology comes to mind... But that's heading for a hijack.
No, I can't buy that. Belief that something is true has nothing to do with whether it's actually true. Believing in a next life won't create one for you. There is an objective reality out there that existed for about 13.7 billion years, according to the latest estimates, before we came along with our limited perceptions of it, it'll carry on existing long after the human species is dust, and our beliefs about it won't affect it at all.
In the sense that the evidence is compelling enough that it would be unreasonable to withhold assent to those propositions, yes. That's all we can mean when we say we believe something to be true. New or different evidence may lead to different conclusions in the future, but that's certainly how it looks now. Truth and reality are not the same thing.
I think one basis of religion is that for those who believe, they will go to heaven ... those that don't ... not sure where they'll end up (people who believe certainly have an opinion). Suppose for a minute that the people who don't believe in God or an afterlife have no thoughts about it ... hell etc. That means that for people that believe in an afterlife, or God, it is there for them if it exists. Whether that is a reality is irrelevant ... as plenty of people believe that it is and it isn't. Can't prove anything. For the people that don't believe, it's not there ... that heaven idea. Belief will not create one but, if there is a heaven, belief will create one. The closest anyone is going to get to heaven is believing in it without proof, just in case it really exists. People that don't believe there is an afterlife per above, there is the hell concept that believers have for non-believer, but that doesn't mean it exists ... any more than heaven really exists.
That independent reality is probably a construct of math, phycics ... laws of nature. That will definitely carry on long after man is gone ... but I'm not sure I'd give it much more than the intelligence of a Queen Bee ... making sure everyone makes it through okay.
I agree, belief is independent of truth ... and I would agree that our limited perceptions of estimating exponential age and 13.6 billion or whatever number is primitive. I think the numbers should be reworked since kaos theory became computerized in the late 80s ... I rhink there is a factor missing in the exponent.