GW Kills Science

Scott Free

House Member
May 9, 2007
3,893
46
48
BC
The End of Theory: The Data Deluge Makes the Scientific Method Obsolete


"All models are wrong, but some are useful."
So proclaimed statistician George Box 30 years ago, and he was right. But what choice did we have? Only models, from cosmological equations to theories of human behavior, seemed to be able to consistently, if imperfectly, explain the world around us. Until now. Today companies like Google, which have grown up in an era of massively abundant data, don't have to settle for wrong models. Indeed, they don't have to settle for models at all.
Sixty years ago, digital computers made information readable. Twenty years ago, the Internet made it reachable. Ten years ago, the first search engine crawlers made it a single database. Now Google and like-minded companies are sifting through the most measured age in history, treating this massive corpus as a laboratory of the human condition. They are the children of the Petabyte Age.
The Petabyte Age is different because more is different. Kilobytes were stored on floppy disks. Megabytes were stored on hard disks. Terabytes were stored in disk arrays. Petabytes are stored in the cloud. As we moved along that progression, we went from the folder analogy to the file cabinet analogy to the library analogy to — well, at petabytes we ran out of organizational analogies.
At the petabyte scale, information is not a matter of simple three- and four-dimensional taxonomy and order but of dimensionally agnostic statistics. It calls for an entirely different approach, one that requires us to lose the tether of data as something that can be visualized in its totality. It forces us to view data mathematically first and establish a context for it later. For instance, Google conquered the advertising world with nothing more than applied mathematics. It didn't pretend to know anything about the culture and conventions of advertising — it just assumed that better data, with better analytical tools, would win the day. And Google was right.
Google's founding philosophy is that we don't know why this page is better than that one: If the statistics of incoming links say it is, that's good enough. No semantic or causal analysis is required. That's why Google can translate languages without actually "knowing" them (given equal corpus data, Google can translate Klingon into Farsi as easily as it can translate French into German). And why it can match ads to content without any knowledge or assumptions about the ads or the content.
Speaking at the O'Reilly Emerging Technology Conference this past March, Peter Norvig, Google's research director, offered an update to George Box's maxim: "All models are wrong, and increasingly you can succeed without them."
This is a world where massive amounts of data and applied mathematics replace every other tool that might be brought to bear. Out with every theory of human behavior, from linguistics to sociology. Forget taxonomy, ontology, and psychology. Who knows why people do what they do? The point is they do it, and we can track and measure it with unprecedented fidelity. With enough data, the numbers speak for themselves.
The big target here isn't advertising, though. It's science. The scientific method is built around testable hypotheses. These models, for the most part, are systems visualized in the minds of scientists. The models are then tested, and experiments confirm or falsify theoretical models of how the world works. This is the way science has worked for hundreds of years.
Scientists are trained to recognize that correlation is not causation, that no conclusions should be drawn simply on the basis of correlation between X and Y (it could just be a coincidence). Instead, you must understand the underlying mechanisms that connect the two. Once you have a model, you can connect the data sets with confidence. Data without a model is just noise.
But faced with massive data, this approach to science — hypothesize, model, test — is becoming obsolete. Consider physics: Newtonian models were crude approximations of the truth (wrong at the atomic level, but still useful). A hundred years ago, statistically based quantum mechanics offered a better picture — but quantum mechanics is yet another model, and as such it, too, is flawed, no doubt a caricature of a more complex underlying reality. The reason physics has drifted into theoretical speculation about n-dimensional grand unified models over the past few decades (the "beautiful story" phase of a discipline starved of data) is that we don't know how to run the experiments that would falsify the hypotheses — the energies are too high, the accelerators too expensive, and so on.
Now biology is heading in the same direction. The models we were taught in school about "dominant" and "recessive" genes steering a strictly Mendelian process have turned out to be an even greater simplification of reality than Newton's laws. The discovery of gene-protein interactions and other aspects of epigenetics has challenged the view of DNA as destiny and even introduced evidence that environment can influence inheritable traits, something once considered a genetic impossibility.
In short, the more we learn about biology, the further we find ourselves from a model that can explain it.
There is now a better way. Petabytes allow us to say: "Correlation is enough." We can stop looking for models. We can analyze the data without hypotheses about what it might show. We can throw the numbers into the biggest computing clusters the world has ever seen and let statistical algorithms find patterns where science cannot.
The best practical example of this is the shotgun gene sequencing by J. Craig Venter. Enabled by high-speed sequencers and supercomputers that statistically analyze the data they produce, Venter went from sequencing individual organisms to sequencing entire ecosystems. In 2003, he started sequencing much of the ocean, retracing the voyage of Captain Cook. And in 2005 he started sequencing the air. In the process, he discovered thousands of previously unknown species of bacteria and other life-forms.
If the words "discover a new species" call to mind Darwin and drawings of finches, you may be stuck in the old way of doing science. Venter can tell you almost nothing about the species he found. He doesn't know what they look like, how they live, or much of anything else about their morphology. He doesn't even have their entire genome. All he has is a statistical blip — a unique sequence that, being unlike any other sequence in the database, must represent a new species.
This sequence may correlate with other sequences that resemble those of species we do know more about. In that case, Venter can make some guesses about the animals — that they convert sunlight into energy in a particular way, or that they descended from a common ancestor. But besides that, he has no better model of this species than Google has of your MySpace page. It's just data. By analyzing it with Google-quality computing resources, though, Venter has advanced biology more than anyone else of his generation.
This kind of thinking is poised to go mainstream. In February, the National Science Foundation announced the Cluster Exploratory, a program that funds research designed to run on a large-scale distributed computing platform developed by Google and IBM in conjunction with six pilot universities. The cluster will consist of 1,600 processors, several terabytes of memory, and hundreds of terabytes of storage, along with the software, including Google File System, IBM's Tivoli, and an open source version of Google's MapReduce. Early CluE projects will include simulations of the brain and the nervous system and other biological research that lies somewhere between wetware and software.
Learning to use a "computer" of this scale may be challenging. But the opportunity is great: The new availability of huge amounts of data, along with the statistical tools to crunch these numbers, offers a whole new way of understanding the world. Correlation supersedes causation, and science can advance even without coherent models, unified theories, or really any mechanistic explanation at all.
There's no reason to cling to our old ways. It's time to ask: What can science learn from Google?
Source

It looks like the need to justify global warming by carbon might really be the death of science!!!!!

Who needs the scientific method when we can just guess at whats going on? I guess for the GW hippie fanatics its enough. I hope the scientific community can weather this storm (pun intended).

I see a new dark age approaching. Seriously I do.
 

Praxius

Mass'Debater
Dec 18, 2007
10,677
161
63
Halifax, NS & Melbourne, VIC
Man, I've been saying this stuff for years now, but nobody would believe me.... oh no, this little whipper snapper couldn't even be able to fathom most of this on his own..... I mean, he didn't go to Harvard for half his life to study it all and get a PhD, so he couldn't possibly be able to figure this stuff out :angry3:

Stupid World, it's not my fault yer all several years behind me :p

But it was either in this forum or the old one I went to.... or both, but I do remember my comparisons between past/existing religions and science, and how both forms of following through history used each as a way to explain the world around us. As we evolve out level of understanding, the older beliefs start to fade away into mythology....

You have the Greek/Roman Mythologies which everybody used to lead their lives by..... then with the Jewish and Christian followings emerging, which took many concepts from the Greek Mythologies such as Winged Angels, Halos, God living in the clouds like Zeus, Hell, etc......

And at the time, Christianity and Judaism explained life and our existence far better then the older ones... it made more sense then anything else in the past.

Then came along science which explained, even further, the things around us and it projected our evolution of understanding even further then before..... then like how religions fight amongst themselves as being the right answers and the right paths to follow, so too did science take pot shots at those religions and claiming much of what they believe in are either myths or unprovable and therefore not worth the time......

basically in a nutshell, science claimed to be the right path to follow and that they have the answers.

But science too has similar flaws that will doom it just like other relgions. Science is quite different, but still the same. Religions put themselves in a cardboard box in the ground the moment they began to get involved in how people live their lives, and then setting their beliefs in a book of unquestionable answers, locked forever in time that one must have faith in, rather then doubts.

Science didn't do this. Science didn't setup a book of morals and rules locked in time.... instead, science put itself in a box in the ground the moment they setup their rules on how science should work and how to properly test theories in order to prove something. Science attempted to pull itself so far away from the approach that religions used, that it itself limited it's potiential.

But wait! In the last number of years/decades, even scientists and the sort have started to get involved into our personal lives.... and we let them do it, because we trust them.... we don't know exactly everything they may be explaining to us, but we have "Faith" in what they are telling us, because they're the "Experts" (Even though they have gotten some very important things wrong, and only found out they got it wrong by testing on us.... the population)

Scientists are trying to tell us it's un-natural to be homosexual due to pro-creation reasons.... much like how Religions claim it's a sin.... heck, we even have them getting involved in our personal lives through the coffee we drink, the smokes we smoke, the beer we drink, to how we raise our children...... they're even into our legal system.

Science may still have many years left in it before humans create and adapt to a new method of understanding and thus, we evolve our knowlege again..... I mean, science is still a very young concept in comparison to other religions. But science as we currently know it, will not last..... just like how many other religions and concepts have died over the centuries.
 
Last edited:

MikeyDB

House Member
Jun 9, 2006
4,612
63
48
Scott Free

Testing hypotheses through experiment is practical sometimes but how practical is it to attempt to create a condtion that could reliably "model" global climate change? Data in and of itself has been and perhaps always will be subject to interpretation. In our post-modern age of focus on "dollars-first" interpretation becomes mechanism to substantiate theories and ideas that "suit" some particular "end"..... Ideas and speculation that became hypotheses put to the test of experimentation and effort to replicate outcome/affect have given mankind his most important and influential dynamics. We become complacent with things that are proven to be the outcome of hypothesese taken to the next level. Children learn about John Glenn and Friendship Seven as the early steps in human effort to pierce the limits of space and those fortunate enough to live in technologically advanced societies pay little attention any more to Mars probes or vehicles hurtling toward Pluto.....

Some "models", some hypotheses confirm some ideas about how the matter and forces we're capable of comprehending "work", and some have been proven through technological advance to be reliable and offer predictability and a window of sorts on our future. We keep those successes and entertain the products of those successes without a second thought. At the same time we're satisfied to accept and embrace ideas like "god" and ancient mysticisms...... Is this because we have no way (like building "models" of the expected outcome from global warming.... or "god" to test these hypotheses?

I'm less than convinced that "science" will suffer from "poor science" than I'm convinced that "science" will suffer from vested interests using a charade of "science" as "proof" that some particular outcome or effect can be expected....

Does the amount of "data" supporting the existence of a supernatural creator being outweigh the amount of "data" supporting ideas that were once labelled heresy? And yet we accept "belief" as appropriate.....

Humankind has opted to conditionally embrace some things while rejecting others. No amount of data or experimentation is likely to change that reality.
 

Scott Free

House Member
May 9, 2007
3,893
46
48
BC
Man, I've been saying this stuff for years now, but nobody would believe me.... oh no, this little whipper snapper couldn't even be able to fathom most of this on his own..... I mean, he didn't go to Harvard for half his life to study it all and get a PhD, so he couldn't possibly be able to figure this stuff out :angry3:

Stupid World, it's not my fault yer all several years behind me :p

But it was either in this forum or the old one I went to.... or both, but I do remember my comparisons between past/existing religions and science, and how both forms of following through history used each as a way to explain the world around us. As we evolve out level of understanding, the older beliefs start to fade away into mythology....

You have the Greek/Roman Mythologies which everybody used to lead their lives by..... then with the Jewish and Christian followings emerging, which took many concepts from the Greek Mythologies such as Winged Angels, Halos, God living in the clouds like Zeus, Hell, etc......

And at the time, Christianity and Judaism explained life and our existence far better then the older ones... it made more sense then anything else in the past.

Then came along science which explained, even further, the things around us and it projected our evolution of understanding even further then before..... then like how religions fight amongst themselves as being the right answers and the right paths to follow, so too did science take pot shots at those religions and claiming much of what they believe in are either myths or unprovable and therefore not worth the time......

basically in a nutshell, science claimed to be the right path to follow and that they have the answers.

But science too has similar flaws that will doom it just like other relgions. Science is quite different, but still the same. Religions put themselves in a cardboard box in the ground the moment they began to get involved in how people live their lives, and then setting their beliefs in a book of unquestionable answers, locked forever in time that one must have faith in, rather then doubts.

Science didn't do this. Science didn't setup a book of morals and rules locked in time.... instead, science put itself in a box in the ground the moment they setup their rules on how science should work and how to properly test theories in order to prove something. Science attempted to pull itself so far away from the approach that religions used, that it itself limited it's potiential.

But wait! In the last number of years/decades, even scientists and the sort have started to get involved into our personal lives.... and we let them do it, because we trust them.... we don't know exactly everything they may be explaining to us, but we have "Faith" in what they are telling us, because they're the "Experts" (Even though they have gotten some very important things wrong, and only found out they got it wrong by testing on us.... the population)

Scientists are trying to tell us it's un-natural to be homosexual due to pro-creation reasons.... much like how Religions claim it's a sin.... heck, we even have them getting involved in our personal lives through the coffee we drink, the smokes we smoke, the beer we drink, to how we raise our children...... they're even into our legal system.

Science may still have many years left in it before humans create and adapt to a new method of understanding and thus, we evolve our knowlege again..... I mean, science is still a very young concept in comparison to other religions. But science as we currently know it, will not last..... just like how many other religions and concepts have died over the centuries.

One of my first posts I drew a parallel between religion and scepticism. I understand completely what your saying and to a large extent agree, however, whatever our future may hold in terms of new understanding, if it doesn't use the scientific method it isn't science.

What is being described by Wired and being used to argue carbon is causing global warming is a form of rationalization where we have the data a conclusion and we put the two together. This is supposedly acceptable because we apparently have so much more data than ever before that we can be confident in our rationalization. This is a very dangerous and slippery slope. I agree that this kind of wish thinking is a prerequisite for a new religion and perhaps we have emerged on the age of rationalization (or petabytes as Wired calls it) but like any new model (by this I mean the way we describe the universe be it science, religion or whatever - we model it in our minds - that is reason it to ourselves) it will have only some applications.

I also disagree that science is dead because it can't model the universe properly so should be thrown out. I have said before and I understand completely if you don't believe me, this is a ridiculous claim and I know it, but I think science has made some very fundamental errors that have held us back for the last 100 years. So to me the scientific principle is alive and well. The only error is in the scientific communities culture which is the reason for the errors. It goes without saying that if you build theories on flawed models at some point your models won't work anymore; that is what has happened.

So in essence, what Wired is saying is that since models don't work we should go back to guessing. That since we have so much more data our guesses will be pretty good for a while and better even than theory by evidence and proof. I think it's very dangerous.
 
Last edited:

Scott Free

House Member
May 9, 2007
3,893
46
48
BC
Scott Free

Testing hypotheses through experiment is practical sometimes but how practical is it to attempt to create a condtion that could reliably "model" global climate change?

Don't let anyone suck you in with this argument Mikey. All scientists have to model is that the amount of heat in the atmosphere could be caused by carbon and that earths cooling systems can't get rid of the heat fast enough. There is no requirement to model the entire atmosphere. That's just a red herring. So far their models have been a bust. Some claim success but on analysis fail to take into account things like water vapour exchanging energy from the ground to upper atmosphere bypassing carbon all together.

Data in and of itself has been and perhaps always will be subject to interpretation.

I agree; this is where our species fondness of wish thinking becomes most perilous.

In our post-modern age of focus on "dollars-first" interpretation becomes mechanism to substantiate theories and ideas that "suit" some particular "end"..... Ideas and speculation that became hypotheses put to the test of experimentation and effort to replicate outcome/affect have given mankind his most important and influential dynamics. We become complacent with things that are proven to be the outcome of hypothesese taken to the next level. Children learn about John Glenn and Friendship Seven as the early steps in human effort to pierce the limits of space and those fortunate enough to live in technologically advanced societies pay little attention any more to Mars probes or vehicles hurtling toward Pluto.....

Some "models", some hypotheses confirm some ideas about how the matter and forces we're capable of comprehending "work", and some have been proven through technological advance to be reliable and offer predictability and a window of sorts on our future. We keep those successes and entertain the products of those successes without a second thought. At the same time we're satisfied to accept and embrace ideas like "god" and ancient mysticisms...... Is this because we have no way (like building "models" of the expected outcome from global warming.... or "god" to test these hypotheses?

I'm less than convinced that "science" will suffer from "poor science" than I'm convinced that "science" will suffer from vested interests using a charade of "science" as "proof" that some particular outcome or effect can be expected....

Does the amount of "data" supporting the existence of a supernatural creator being outweigh the amount of "data" supporting ideas that were once labelled heresy? And yet we accept "belief" as appropriate.....

Humankind has opted to conditionally embrace some things while rejecting others. No amount of data or experimentation is likely to change that reality.

I suppose your right. Perhaps it's just human nature. Science is looking for a god gene but maybe there is a wish thinking gene which they can't find because they are prone to its effects as much as anyone else?
 

darkbeaver

the universe is electric
Jan 26, 2006
41,035
201
63
RR1 Distopia 666 Discordia
Global warming is a business oportunity it will make money therfore the warmer it gets the more we'll spend to fix it, it's the terrorists attack of nature. If we don't have global warming we can't make money fighting it. Gore and Strong will strarve if we don't have a warm globe.
 

Scott Free

House Member
May 9, 2007
3,893
46
48
BC
I agree. I realized this was happening when I had read so many economists hoping for a new bubble; that is something to absorb inflation and excess money the fed seems hell bent on printing. When the carbon causes GW myth finally took hold the economists fell silent - they had their bubble; or so it seems to me.

I was watching the Colbert Report the other night and a scientist was on explaining how the latest mars lander hit an area of dirt that was until very recently covered in ice. An opportunity available because the polar caps on mars are receding he said. The tension was palatable as Colbert skipped this all too obvious opportunity for some satire! I really have to wonder what the hell was going through their minds. It was just that damn obvious IMO. Why the hell wouldn't Colbert make fun of this? I'm not one for conspiracies but couldn't they (mainstream media) make their deception a little less obvious?
 

Tonington

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 27, 2006
15,441
150
63
Don't let anyone suck you in with this argument Mikey. All scientists have to model is that the amount of heat in the atmosphere could be caused by carbon and that earths cooling systems can't get rid of the heat fast enough. There is no requirement to model the entire atmosphere. That's just a red herring. So far their models have been a bust. Some claim success but on analysis fail to take into account things like water vapour exchanging energy from the ground to upper atmosphere bypassing carbon all together.

On the contrary, scientists include water vapour, it's included in the feedbacks of warming caused by any forcing of the atmosphere. In fact, they have satellites that can measure all of this. Clouds and Earth's Radiant Energy System on one satellite for starters. The data has been available for a while, it's been analyzed, it's fit other theories we have of the universe like radiation, thermodynamics, fluid dynamics, among others.

Scott Free, don't let people suck you in with bunk arguments like the water vapour and carbon dioxide trope parroted so loudly by some.

Read the link below and see if they fail to account for water vapour, or how the theories say it should behave.
Satellite observations of the water vapor greenhouse effect and column longwave cooling rates: Relative roles of the continuum and vibrationrotation to pure rotation bands.
 

Scott Free

House Member
May 9, 2007
3,893
46
48
BC
Tonington, The fact remains that Mars is warming and there is no working model where it can be demonstrated that carbon is responsible. I know you want to believe carbon is warming these planets but want is not proof.

It is wrong to say the models of weather are too complex to prove the carbon hypothesis because this is false. Only the effect of carbon needs to be simulated and it hasn't been. It would be no more ridiculous to say that the entire atmosphere must be modelled for an air plane design to be tested in a wind tunnel.

The fact is that there is no model and one can't be made with any kind of acceptable error margin which demonstrates that our carbon is causing global warming. That means carbon is not the culprit. It is a fact. There is something else causing Mars and Earth to warm.

Carbon is a contributer, but it isn't the whole story. It just isn't.

What scares the hell out of me is environmental zealots like you might actually destroy science! Where bible thumper failed you seem to be succeeding. Perhaps two fronts of assault is too much for science. Now it seems if google confirms your wants and desires then it must be true - the scientific method be damned! It is a terrible thing you are doing to our society! Please stop - seriously! Your (and your ilk) adamant denials and wish thinking are going to send us into a new dark age.

If you will notice all but the most ignorant scientists will say carbon is the most likely cause but that is very much different than saying it is! It is a theory not a fact. The fact is the world is warming and the fact is we don't know why.

I have come to realize it is a waste of time talking to you. Your tenacious clinging to belief would make a suicide bomber envious.
 

Dexter Sinister

Unspecified Specialist
Oct 1, 2004
10,168
539
113
Regina, SK
Interesting argument presented in the OP. I don't think I buy it, but I need to think about it a little more. I'm also aware that as a committed and unapologetic admirer of science, and a now-retired practitioner of it, I don't want to buy it, so I have to be careful here not to be closed-minded. My first impression is that the source listed there is on to something important, but I don't think he's understood it correctly. It's not really true, for instance, that science proceeds by hypothesis-model-test-conclusion, that's just the way its results are presented after the fact. That's the accepted way to argue a point in science, but it's not really how it works. Inspiration and intuition are responsible for the greatest leaps, and always have been. One of the nicest examples of that is Paul Dirac's prediction of the existence of anti-matter. In the simplest possible terms, he'd worked out a set of equations describing certain subatomic processes that involved squared quantities, and any squared quantity has both a positive and a negative root by the standard rules of mathematics. He could have dismissed the negative roots as having no physical reality, and probably most physicists at the time would have, but he was a deep thinker and asked himself what it would mean if the negative roots actually did have some physical reality. That turned out to be antimatter.

Neither is it really true that quantum theory supplanted Newtonian physics, as he seems to imply. It's true that a Newtonian model of the atom is fundamentally wrong, but Newton's equations, and the development of them by many others afterwards, are still very useful within their now well-known limits. NASA uses them every day, they put men on the moon and the landers on Mars. We know they're approximations, but they're close enough to reality, whatever that is, to be useful descriptions of how nature behaves, and that's all science can hope for. Absolute truth is not what science claims.

In a larger context, the claim that models don't matter seems fundamentally wrong to me. Models are how science conceptualizes the way things work and what enables it to generalize and make predictions. Without a model of reality, it seems to me, you're just fiddling with the numbers without really understanding their patterns. The understanding the model provides will almost certainly be incomplete, and in the contemporary examples of quantum theory and general relativitiy we know that for a certainty, because those two models are inconsistent, but that isn't really the point. We know they can't be complete descriptions of reality, but they're close enough to the truth, whatever it is, to be useful. Personally I don't think we'll ever arrive at a final theory that explains everything accurately and completely, I think reality is fractal, in the sense that it'll display the same degree of complexity no matter what scale we inspect it at. But I don't think that matters much. The journey is what matters, not the destination, and if I'm right, there's no final destination anyway. There'll always be more to figure out.

It's neither a surprise nor a disappointment to me that we haven't figured it all out. Given what we know of the vastness of the cosmos and the finite nature of our minds, what other result is it reasonable to expect? The point is to keep trying. We can always learn more, and we can never know everything.
 

Tonington

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 27, 2006
15,441
150
63
Tonington, The fact remains that Mars is warming and there is no working model where it can be demonstrated that carbon is responsible. I know you want to believe carbon is warming these planets but want is not proof.

I know that. Why do you still have it in your head that that somehow matters? Nobody is trying to show that warming on Mars is caused by increasing human production of greenhouse gases.

It is wrong to say the models of weather are too complex to prove the carbon hypothesis because this is false.

I know, that's why I haven't said that.

Only the effect of carbon needs to be simulated and it hasn't been.

That's not true. Any forcing applied to Earth's atmosphere will have more than one outcome, so they all have to be investigated. Further, without studying the other inputs to Earth's climate, it would be impossible to say with any certainty what is the root cause of the increasing heat budget.

The fact is that there is no model and one can't be made with any kind of acceptable error margin which demonstrates that our carbon is causing global warming. That means carbon is not the culprit.

Why do you think it is dependent on models? Models help, but we have plenty of observations as well. Satellite programs like the one I mentioned earlier. The theories back up plenty of models. Look at the observations in the study I linked to. Satellite observations confirm model predictions.

Carbon is a contributer, but it isn't the whole story. It just isn't.

Of course not, but, what do you think the main contributer is?

What scares the hell out of me is environmental zealots like you might actually destroy science! Where bible thumper failed you seem to be succeeding. Perhaps two fronts of assault is too much for science. Now it seems if google confirms your wants and desires then it must be true - the scientific method be damned! It is a terrible thing you are doing to our society! Please stop - seriously! Your (and your ilk) adamant denials and wish thinking are going to send us into a new dark age.

Here's the problem. You link to an unrelated story, and draw illogical conclusions about what that means for science, particularly climate science. The author didn't once say a thing about radiation physics. Yet you make your unfounded claims about what science must do in your mind to call something resolved. Then when I give you an example of what the science does say, and how it does that, you skip on to ad hominems right off the bat.

How about this time, you keep it clean? I can start throwing around insults too; like your misunderstanding of the difference between a scientific theory, and the common usage of theory, but it's a huge waste of time. I'd get better results yelling at paint drying on a wall.
 

Scott Free

House Member
May 9, 2007
3,893
46
48
BC
Of course not, but, what do you think the main contributer is?

If you agree to this then we have no argument. You have a bunch of data that shows a relationship of carbon to warming. I agree there is one I just don't think it is the only force at play. That has been my point all along.

I don't know what is causing us to warm up. I think it is exciting though. The sun is cooling yet we are warming, so is Mars; so are other bodies. If the world would just be rational for a while we might discover something new.

I have an idea what the cause is. Space-time is plastic, stretchy and mailable. The idea that changes in it are always observable is false IMO. We see such things as waves which is exciting considering the recreant hypothesis that giant waves are going through the planet causing the warming. That is precisely what we should think we are seeing if space-time isn't always observable IMO.
 

Scott Free

House Member
May 9, 2007
3,893
46
48
BC
Interesting argument presented in the OP. I don't think I buy it, but I need to think about it a little more. I'm also aware that as a committed and unapologetic admirer of science, and a now-retired practitioner of it, I don't want to buy it, so I have to be careful here not to be closed-minded. My first impression is that the source listed there is on to something important, but I don't think he's understood it correctly. It's not really true, for instance, that science proceeds by hypothesis-model-test-conclusion, that's just the way its results are presented after the fact. That's the accepted way to argue a point in science, but it's not really how it works. Inspiration and intuition are responsible for the greatest leaps, and always have been. One of the nicest examples of that is Paul Dirac's prediction of the existence of anti-matter. In the simplest possible terms, he'd worked out a set of equations describing certain subatomic processes that involved squared quantities, and any squared quantity has both a positive and a negative root by the standard rules of mathematics. He could have dismissed the negative roots as having no physical reality, and probably most physicists at the time would have, but he was a deep thinker and asked himself what it would mean if the negative roots actually did have some physical reality. That turned out to be antimatter.

Neither is it really true that quantum theory supplanted Newtonian physics, as he seems to imply. It's true that a Newtonian model of the atom is fundamentally wrong, but Newton's equations, and the development of them by many others afterwards, are still very useful within their now well-known limits. NASA uses them every day, they put men on the moon and the landers on Mars. We know they're approximations, but they're close enough to reality, whatever that is, to be useful descriptions of how nature behaves, and that's all science can hope for. Absolute truth is not what science claims.

In a larger context, the claim that models don't matter seems fundamentally wrong to me. Models are how science conceptualizes the way things work and what enables it to generalize and make predictions. Without a model of reality, it seems to me, you're just fiddling with the numbers without really understanding their patterns. The understanding the model provides will almost certainly be incomplete, and in the contemporary examples of quantum theory and general relativitiy we know that for a certainty, because those two models are inconsistent, but that isn't really the point. We know they can't be complete descriptions of reality, but they're close enough to the truth, whatever it is, to be useful. Personally I don't think we'll ever arrive at a final theory that explains everything accurately and completely, I think reality is fractal, in the sense that it'll display the same degree of complexity no matter what scale we inspect it at. But I don't think that matters much. The journey is what matters, not the destination, and if I'm right, there's no final destination anyway. There'll always be more to figure out.

It's neither a surprise nor a disappointment to me that we haven't figured it all out. Given what we know of the vastness of the cosmos and the finite nature of our minds, what other result is it reasonable to expect? The point is to keep trying. We can always learn more, and we can never know everything.

The idea that we don't need the scientific method because we can just ask the great Google and the Petabytes will guide our rationalizations to Truth sounds suspiciously like wish thinking. If the truth can't be tested or demonstrated then it isn't true IMO. I'm pretty sure mankind has been down this road before. I see very positive things in using the data to make new observations however.
 

Praxius

Mass'Debater
Dec 18, 2007
10,677
161
63
Halifax, NS & Melbourne, VIC
One of my first posts I drew a parallel between religion and scepticism. I understand completely what your saying and to a large extent agree, however, whatever our future may hold in terms of new understanding, if it doesn't use the scientific method it isn't science.

Of course it isn't, that's the whole point. Humans will use science for as long as it possibly can, based on it's current limitations of understanding that they pre-determined before it even became mainstream. Just like how people held onto Religions and fought wars over what they "Knew" as the truth.

Science might last another 50 years, 100 years, maybe a thousand or two like religions, but eventually it too will become obsolete.

It's the same mentality I see in the above you wrote "If you don't do it the Scientific way, it's not science" that isn't anymore different then how religious people feel and think. It supplies you with answers you seek in an accurate manner and you feel it's the only logical method of getting the right answers.

But don't forget about all the many many things science did get wrong, still is getting wrong, and for the most part, it's all just trial and error until they get somethng right..... but usually what they get right ends up being some sort of health hazzard we find out about years down the road after it's been given to us all to be tested on..... like hydronated oils which were supposed to be healthier for us then saturated, only to find out Hydronated is linked to increase chances of heart disease, etc.

Coffee is good for you.... then coffee is bad for you..... then it's good for you again..... then it's not. Wine/Alcohol is supposed to be bad for you..... then it's good..... then it's not..... then it's sorta good, but not.

Heck, Religions got some things right, and what we understood from much of what religions explained is what gave a foundation for science to be created. All of our understanding and knowlege comes from one point in time beyond written history.

The Aztecs and the Egyptians didn't actually believe in science, even though many of their buildings, structures, society in general match much of scientific calculation..... they had their own process of understanding and solving these things..... something we might never fully know about.

The one thing that Science currently has over Religions is it's ability to adapt and change things they got wrong, while many religions will hold true to their old teachings, regardless of how foolish they may sound today, and will attempt in any manner they can to try and explain it in a way that justifies that belief.

What is being described by Wired and being used to argue carbon is causing global warming is a form of rationalization where we have the data a conclusion and we put the two together. This is supposedly acceptable because we apparently have so much more data than ever before that we can be confident in our rationalization. This is a very dangerous and slippery slope.

Why is it? We have so much information, so many more minds and writters to review and absorb..... so many other alternative answers, that when you do look at the whole spectrum of common beliefs that make logical sense without actual scientific testing, but just human common sense and understanding..... the answers just stand out right in front of you to pick..... not out of a simple guess, but by the human mind's ability to understand and put together things through imagination and experience. When we are growing up, society and our parents make us distance ourselves from our imaginations because it's silly. Imagination when trained and nurtured properly, can go hand in hand with the experiences you gain as you grow, and you can easily think of new and unthought of concepts and ideas that might not have normally been thought of as practical due to continually following the scientific method, which constantly requires substance or something that can be tested to be proven.

Humans are not currently at the level of intelligence to use science in a way to prove the unproveable, and with science's approach, it will take forever for us to get to that point in our evolution, which is why science will either require a total revamp on how it thinks and operates, or it'll go the way of other religions.

I agree that this kind of wish thinking is a prerequisite for a new religion and perhaps we have emerged on the age of rationalization (or petabytes as Wired calls it) but like any new model (by this I mean the way we describe the universe be it science, religion or whatever - we model it in our minds - that is reason it to ourselves) it will have only some applications.

I wouldn't call it wish thinking.... a wish sounds like a shot in the dark at the answer, and it's not that primitive. This way of thinking is how I personally figured out and understood things that were about to occur years ahead of today. When you look at the information provided to you unbiased, you can see and feel the overall situation unfold in front of you.

Then you wait years down the road for science to catch up and test the concept so they can say "It's a scientific fact" even though it was common sense before.

And that's how science survives..... it's more so a leech religion.... some culture, some religion, or someone will come up with an idea or concept that makes sense to them and explains something they wanted to know..... then science comes along and takes those beliefs or "Theories" and starts testing on them with their vast, yet limited methods..... and then if it's provable, they will claim it's "Scientifically Proven" or a "Scientific Fact" even though it was common knowlege without them having to put their gold sticker on it to make it true.

And yet, they can and will still get things wrong.

I also disagree that science is dead because it can't model the universe properly so should be thrown out.

Well I never said it was dead yet, but it will eventually.... nothing lasts forever.... ever.

I have said before and I understand completely if you don't believe me, this is a ridiculous claim and I know it, but I think science has made some very fundamental errors that have held us back for the last 100 years.

I agree.

So to me the scientific principle is alive and well. The only error is in the scientific communities culture which is the reason for the errors. It goes without saying that if you build theories on flawed models at some point your models won't work anymore; that is what has happened.

Which is also the other problem with Science.... it's still for the most part, trial and error when it comes to trying to understand new and sometimes even old ideas and theories.

So in essence, what Wired is saying is that since models don't work we should go back to guessing.

And that I don't agree with.... guessing is good if you're on the Price is Right, not when you're trying to split atoms. There will be a new way of thinking and understanding, but abandoning science right now isn't the right answer..... of course neither is abandoning religions.

That since we have so much more data our guesses will be pretty good for a while and better even than theory by evidence and proof. I think it's very dangerous.

Well life is not always safe, and even science hasn't been the most safe thing either.... ask the animals and humans who've been tested on over the decades.... ask those nuked in Japan..... ask all those soldiers the USSR, Canada and the US all tested on with radiation experiments and short distant bomb detonations, etc.

Religions, science and even the new concept and anything else is never completely safe. That's how humans learn.

Stick your arm in the lava..... no more arm..... you learn not to do that again, and so does everybody else around you.
 

Scott Free

House Member
May 9, 2007
3,893
46
48
BC
Of course it isn't, that's the whole point. Humans will use science for as long as it possibly can, based on it's current limitations of understanding that they pre-determined before it even became mainstream. Just like how people held onto Religions and fought wars over what they "Knew" as the truth.

Science might last another 50 years, 100 years, maybe a thousand or two like religions, but eventually it too will become obsolete.

I'm sure we'll go back to human sacrifice too. It is the nature of our cultures to collapse. We do not have civilizations that go on endlessly and this one is no exception. We are watching it crumble away right now.

It's the same mentality I see in the above you wrote "If you don't do it the Scientific way, it's not science" that isn't anymore different then how religious people feel and think.

If you play basketball with a football your not really playing basketball.

It supplies you with answers you seek in an accurate manner and you feel it's the only logical method of getting the right answers.

No, it doesn't provide me with much but technology. It does, however, give me a method to gauge if something is correct or not; something blind guesses and rationalizations based on data are incapable off.

But don't forget about all the many many things science did get wrong, still is getting wrong, and for the most part, it's all just trial and error until they get somethng right..... but usually what they get right ends up being some sort of health hazzard we find out about years down the road after it's been given to us all to be tested on..... like hydronated oils which were supposed to be healthier for us then saturated, only to find out Hydronated is linked to increase chances of heart disease, etc.

I know this but those hazards are identified and dealt with. Mistakes are made and corrected. How long did the Romans use lead plates and pipes? They never did know how bad that was for them nor could they since they had no way of "guessing" it. I don't doubt that we are doing many things just as silly as the Romans using lead plates and petabyte data might uncover some of it but even still, it will have to be proved or it is just an irrational guess.

Coffee is good for you.... then coffee is bad for you..... then it's good for you again..... then it's not. Wine/Alcohol is supposed to be bad for you..... then it's good..... then it's not..... then it's sorta good, but not.

Some people have a hard time with coffee. People are individuals. That is one of the worst things about medicine: it doesn't treat us as individuals. We are a long way from a golden age in medicine as a result.

Heck, Religions got some things right, and what we understood from much of what religions explained is what gave a foundation for science to be created. All of our understanding and knowlege comes from one point in time beyond written history.

I just flat out disagree.

The Aztecs and the Egyptians didn't actually believe in science, even though many of their buildings, structures, society in general match much of scientific calculation..... they had their own process of understanding and solving these things..... something we might never fully know about.

Nobody "believes" in science because it isn't a religion, it is a method. They can believe the method is the best one we have because that is what the evidence demonstrates. The Aztecs had the closest measurement from the surface of the earth to the moon until the 60's. They didn't do that by guess work or prayer. They might not have had our exact method but they had a method of that we can be certain.

The one thing that Science currently has over Religions is it's ability to adapt and change things they got wrong, while many religions will hold true to their old teachings, regardless of how foolish they may sound today, and will attempt in any manner they can to try and explain it in a way that justifies that belief.

I agree that any community of people is capable of wish thinking and falling into the religion trap. Anything can be made into a religion because we are prone to religion. It is a failure of our species brought on by the right side of our brains amazing ability to create a narrative out of anything. As a result we can find motive and meaning in anything but that doesn't mean there really is any. Our only defence is a well thought out method of experimentation. Without such a method, if we just used data and wild guesses, we would make narratives all over the place that simply don't exist.


Why is it? We have so much information, so many more minds and writters to review and absorb..... so many other alternative answers, that when you do look at the whole spectrum of common beliefs that make logical sense without actual scientific testing, but just human common sense and understanding..... the answers just stand out right in front of you to pick..... not out of a simple guess, but by the human mind's ability to understand and put together things through imagination and experience. When we are growing up, society and our parents make us distance ourselves from our imaginations because it's silly. Imagination when trained and nurtured properly, can go hand in hand with the experiences you gain as you grow, and you can easily think of new and unthought of concepts and ideas that might not have normally been thought of as practical due to continually following the scientific method, which constantly requires substance or something that can be tested to be proven.

We are not a common sense species, far from it actually as history bares witness very well to. That is the danger, that we will use our supposed "common sense" to believe in a whole new realm of wish thinking and make believe. It was common sense that gave us god, demons, angels, giants, the Reformation, the crusades, the war in Iraq etc.. Without a method of verification, without a method to prove our wishes true, we are walking blind and might as well climb back into the trees. People, as a species, are not nearly as clever as they think they are. Research in animal cognition is proving that.

Humans are not currently at the level of intelligence to use science in a way to prove the unproveable, and with science's approach, it will take forever for us to get to that point in our evolution, which is why science will either require a total revamp on how it thinks and operates, or it'll go the way of other religions.

Science is man made like religion. It therefore has flaws. One of the flaws is its culture and reverence for personality. As a result science is today very misguided and some scientists can't see that but the proof is plain to see; theory is failing and it can only be failing if past theory needs to be reworked or is outright wrong. Like your scientific poisons the scientific community will come to realize it eventually but there are going to be a lot of bruised egos.

I wouldn't call it wish thinking.... a wish sounds like a shot in the dark at the answer, and it's not that primitive. This way of thinking is how I personally figured out and understood things that were about to occur years ahead of today. When you look at the information provided to you unbiased, you can see and feel the overall situation unfold in front of you.

Not true, you just think you can. That is the marvellous magic of our brains.

Then you wait years down the road for science to catch up and test the concept so they can say "It's a scientific fact" even though it was common sense before.

You might wait for science to verify something as fact but science has debunked far more of "this way of thinking" than not. Using your method we would still be feeling the bumps on peoples heads to figure out their intelligence or bleeding people for every ailment under the sun.

And that's how science survives..... it's more so a leech religion.... some culture, some religion, or someone will come up with an idea or concept that makes sense to them and explains something they wanted to know..... then science comes along and takes those beliefs or "Theories" and starts testing on them with their vast, yet limited methods..... and then if it's provable, they will claim it's "Scientifically Proven" or a "Scientific Fact" even though it was common knowlege without them having to put their gold sticker on it to make it true.

I don't entirely disagree with you. When we consider funding, lobby groups, corporate interests, political interests, etc., we see that the community of scientists are struggling with a great many influences that are definitely to science detriment. That isn't the point though. The point is that the scientific method is the only way we currently have to verify whether or not something is real or imagined.

Which is also the other problem with Science.... it's still for the most part, trial and error when it comes to trying to understand new and sometimes even old ideas and theories.

This is somewhere that petrabyte information might be helpful. It could seriously cut down on some research time but the theories still need to be validated.

And that I don't agree with.... guessing is good if you're on the Price is Right, not when you're trying to split atoms. There will be a new way of thinking and understanding, but abandoning science right now isn't the right answer..... of course neither is abandoning religions.

Abandoning science would be a huge mistake but one a great many people would applaud because they still believe in devils, faeries, dragons, god and the like. As our society crumbles these beliefs will only increase. They will increase because as trouble increases our minds create narratives to explain our actions and those of people around us. One of the easiest narratives is that invisible things are responsible.

Well life is not always safe, and even science hasn't been the most safe thing either.... ask the animals and humans who've been tested on over the decades.... ask those nuked in Japan..... ask all those soldiers the USSR, Canada and the US all tested on with radiation experiments and short distant bomb detonations, etc.

Religions, science and even the new concept and anything else is never completely safe. That's how humans learn.

Stick your arm in the lava..... no more arm..... you learn not to do that again, and so does everybody else around you.

The scientific method allows us to poke a stick in the lava and since we know the sticks combustion point we can accurately know what the lava will do to an arm; that method saves some arms.
 

L Gilbert

Winterized
Nov 30, 2006
23,738
107
63
71
50 acres in Kootenays BC
the-brights.net
Data set A

Data set B

Can data come up with the idea in the first place that there even is something that ties the two sets of data together? Data cannot come up with ideas by itself. There are people around that understand the data well enough to posit ideas about it. I am sure that the human mind is so vast in what it can conceive of that simple data and data analysis will not be enough, at least for a long time. We should rely on whatever superstition is handy? Superstition loves ignorance and stupidity.
 

Praxius

Mass'Debater
Dec 18, 2007
10,677
161
63
Halifax, NS & Melbourne, VIC
I'm sure we'll go back to human sacrifice too. It is the nature of our cultures to collapse. We do not have civilizations that go on endlessly and this one is no exception. We are watching it crumble away right now.

I'm looking forward to it myself. But just because our current civilizations might crumble, I don't think that's an indicator that we'll start to go back to human sacrafices..... maybe those religious wing nuts might, but I won't.

If you play basketball with a football your not really playing basketball.

Well I don't like either. But once again, you seem to be going on the impression that Science and only science holds the answers and the only thing that can save us humans.... I say it isn't. Science is a good tool, but it's not something I'm going to hold onto like a religion (As being the only way to understand our existence and the world around us)

Something much more superior to science will come eventually through our lives. But until then, it will be Science that holds the throne.

No, it doesn't provide me with much but technology. It does, however, give me a method to gauge if something is correct or not; something blind guesses and rationalizations based on data are incapable off.

I disagree. Blind guessing, yes, you're right on that, but not everybody who seeks answers outside of the scientific method are "Blind Guessing" ~ There is a system in process for many.

I know this but those hazards are identified and dealt with. Mistakes are made and corrected. How long did the Romans use lead plates and pipes? They never did know how bad that was for them nor could they since they had no way of "guessing" it. I don't doubt that we are doing many things just as silly as the Romans using lead plates and petabyte data might uncover some of it but even still, it will have to be proved or it is just an irrational guess.

Unless the evidence and situations continually repeat and match those "Irrational Guesses."

It's sorta along the basis of animal instinct. Certain animals know not to eat certain plants or animals, because they are poisonous or may cause them alternative harm..... they don't follow the scientific process, yet they still know.

Why?

Nobody "believes" in science because it isn't a religion, it is a method.

Are you sure? There are already groups out there who follow it like a religion..... a method or process to seek the right answers of existence and our lives as a whole. Science has tried it's hardest to keep itself seperate from other religions, but trying to claim they're not a religion, but a method..... well religions are a method too. Just methods that bring about different outcomes. People "Believe" in science because it gives them them answers they are seeking (Or at least answers they are willing to accept at the time)

Religions are believed in by many, because they give them the answers they are seeking in which science can not explain, and vice versa...... this is what makes them similar. But like how Religions can not explain everything, neither can science, nor will it ever reach the point where it can.

To me, science is a stepping stone in human's ability to understand. At first we believed in crude religions that explained things in the manner in which we could understand. Eventually those religions evolved and increased in their abilities to explain and to understand the world around us.

Then science came along and evolved our ability to not just believe what makes sense, but to test and prove that in which we believe to confirm it makes sense. But like previous relgions, it will become obselete and will either require evolution in it's rules/laws in testing and proving, or it will have to give way to a new method of understanding.

They can believe the method is the best one we have because that is what the evidence demonstrates. The Aztecs had the closest measurement from the surface of the earth to the moon until the 60's. They didn't do that by guess work or prayer. They might not have had our exact method but they had a method of that we can be certain.

And that's all I'm saying.... there are alternative methods out there besides just the Scientific Method.... and they can bring about the same conclusions, if not, more accurate conclusions.... Depending of course.... however, science depends on certain things as well when it comes to getting the right or wrong answers.

Either way, no method we know of today is the be-all end-all method..... we're just not there yet.

I agree that any community of people is capable of wish thinking and falling into the religion trap. Anything can be made into a religion because we are prone to religion. It is a failure of our species brought on by the right side of our brains amazing ability to create a narrative out of anything. As a result we can find motive and meaning in anything but that doesn't mean there really is any. Our only defence is a well thought out method of experimentation. Without such a method, if we just used data and wild guesses, we would make narratives all over the place that simply don't exist.

But that still happens within the scientific process.... if that wasn't true, then there would't be any current debates on Global Warming or if there is other life on planets, etc.... the scientific method is not absolute, but it's the closest thing we have at the moment and will have to do for now.

And any type of concept or method that a collective of people will follow to guide their lives is what I would call a religion or a cult. If you eat, sleep and operate your entire life based on what science tells you to be the best or healthiest manner in which to live, makes it directly a relgion, even if you're not praying or going to church every Sunday. It's different and yet, still the same.

We are not a common sense species, far from it actually as history bares witness very well to.

I sum that up to "Individuals are Smart, but a mob of people can be stupid" As even scientific explinations can be wrong, and many people can still believe in them..... see the Y2K bug fiasco.

That is the danger, that we will use our supposed "common sense" to believe in a whole new realm of wish thinking and make believe. It was common sense that gave us god, demons, angels, giants, the Reformation, the crusades, the war in Iraq etc.. Without a method of verification, without a method to prove our wishes true, we are walking blind and might as well climb back into the trees. People, as a species, are not nearly as clever as they think they are. Research in animal cognition is proving that.

All of the above can be summed up with the "Mob of people can be Stupid" explination and isn't directly held by religions or science, but by those leaders in which we all put into power and we give blind trust to.... a different problem all together.

The Crusades occured based on what people believed and what the leaders wanted at the time.

Iraq occured based on what people believed and what the leaders wanted at the time.

Whether it's religous explinations or scientific explinations based on evidence, it all can be skewed for anybody in power to suit their own objectives.

We use our common sense to believe in things that make perfect sense to us at the time. Once apon a time, we used to believe the world was flat, because that sounded logical to us.... we never traveled all the way around the planet before, and looking at a ball, it didn't make sense to use that we'd stay on something like that based on our lack of knowlege of gravity and orbit.

However, that still didn't stop people from getting on their ships and sailing around the world to finally know.... it wasn't the scientific process that solved this riddle, but people thinking differently and using their common sense to solve a problem and for some, that included the risk of their own known lives in order to do so.

And in this process of the unknown and going on common sense, not only did humans eventually discover the Earth was round, but we discovered much much more then we were expecting.... the Americas, new lands, new cultures, new beliefs, new species..... when we took a chance at the unknown, we ended up knowing much more then we were expecting.

Science is man made like religion. It therefore has flaws. One of the flaws is its culture and reverence for personality. As a result science is today very misguided and some scientists can't see that but the proof is plain to see; theory is failing and it can only be failing if past theory needs to be reworked or is outright wrong. Like your scientific poisons the scientific community will come to realize it eventually but there are going to be a lot of bruised egos.

So, sorta like how many of the relgions eventually broke off into alternative explinations? Catholics, Protestants, Baptists, Orthodox, etc.... they all eventually started to have different points of views and beliefs.... they changed their processes and eventually through much division and failing theories, many scientists will start to modify and change their methods to suit their own paths they take..... and other's will follow suit.

Not true, you just think you can. That is the marvellous magic of our brains.

Hey just because you can't do it or figure it out, doesn't mean you can absolutely claim I can't. When you study a little piece of the puzzle one at a time, eventually through many years, you might start to see the overall big picture of the puzzle.... however if you understand the generic basics of each puzzle piece and how they all fit together, when you just clear your mind of all the other trivial details that cloud your judgement, you can see what is being explained to you in which you seek..... once you see it, you can then test to prove it by the same scientific process..... it all boils down to how one merges all these methods of understanding.

You can't just say science is crap, religons are crap, everything is crap and then start taking shots in the dark.... like a hybred, one needs to use each process of understanding together and in the right order to come to a more accurate & sound conclusion.

So long as all the other religions and sciences keep pointing fingers back and forth at one another and claiming the other is full of sh*t and they are the only ones who hold the true answers, nobody will ever come close to fully understanding everything in the way humans were ment to do. Divisions cause confusions..... merge each belief together in a way that makes sense to you individually, and you will come to the new method of study and understanding that goes beyond scientific testing and process, and beyond religous explinations and rules..... and thus, you will see the big picture with all the puzzle pieces.

You might wait for science to verify something as fact but science has debunked far more of "this way of thinking" than not. Using your method we would still be feeling the bumps on peoples heads to figure out their intelligence or bleeding people for every ailment under the sun.

That's not how I think, and none of that is what I believe in..... you clearly do not understand what is being explained to you.

I don't entirely disagree with you. When we consider funding, lobby groups, corporate interests, political interests, etc., we see that the community of scientists are struggling with a great many influences that are definitely to science detriment. That isn't the point though. The point is that the scientific method is the only way we currently have to verify whether or not something is real or imagined.

To a degree, I agree.

But, much as how science is being currently influenced by those in power or have the money, so too was religion. How many times has the bible been written and re-written until we have the bible we all know now? When did religion not give a crap about underwear and then decide that it was imoral not to wear underwear and issued that everybody should wear underwear because it helps reduce one's ability to have quick and easy sex? They did this during the British takeovers of countries in Africa and the Americas. Over time, certain leaders began to interperate the bible and it's teachings to suit their eras, much as they are doing today with both religions and sciences.

If the method and process can be skewed and twisted to suit certain people's objectives and not be a sure-fire method of seeking absolute truth for all, but for those in power or with money, then it's no better then a religion.

This is somewhere that petrabyte information might be helpful. It could seriously cut down on some research time but the theories still need to be validated.

Agreed... things do need to be proven to a degree, depending on the topic or situation. This is why I don't follow "Blind Guessing" but my hybred approach, which uses both the scientific, the common sense, and past religious explination process. May sound weird, but it's worked so far for me.

Abandoning science would be a huge mistake but one a great many people would applaud because they still believe in devils, faeries, dragons, god and the like.

As I said, science being abandoned now wouldn't be wise.

As our society crumbles these beliefs will only increase. They will increase because as trouble increases our minds create narratives to explain our actions and those of people around us. One of the easiest narratives is that invisible things are responsible.

Well, many things currently naked to the human eye are responsible for many things..... why would it be silly to think otherwise? CO2, Radiation, other various gases, atoms, viruses, bacteria.... many things we can not see cause much of what occurs in our everyday lives..... but through time, we humans eventually figured out ways of seeing these things and proven they exist. Just because ghosts and spirits still can not be properly detected, doesn't mean they don't exist. Heck, even the Atom was considdered to exist prior to it actually being proven.... but someone believed they existed and eventually a method of detecting them and even modifying them to suit our needs occured.

Just because science can not prove something, doesn't nessicarily make it non-existent.... it's just unprovable in the scientific method at this present time.

The scientific method allows us to poke a stick in the lava and since we know the sticks combustion point we can accurately know what the lava will do to an arm; that method saves some arms.

Well we wouldn't actually know what it would do to a human arm by using a stick.... you'd have a crude model or process to determine what might happen to a human arm, but you'd never truly know until you stuck an arm into the lava to see it's full effect and what can and will occur.

A burning stick in lava doesn't exert pain, it doesn't melt flesh and bone, it doesn't boil your blood into evaporation, etc.

The scientific process has evolved not just from past religious explinations in which it fed on to prove yes or no, but it has also evolved from human's ability to learn through trial and error...... that's why we lived high up in trees for so long.... because through our old fashion trial and error process, we learned that many of the people we decended from were killed on the ground by preditors and infections, and until we learned how to properly defend ourselves and eventually hunt our food on the ground and be a force to be reckoned with, we learned that staying up in trees is much more safe then living out in the exposed with the animals in which fed on us.

Science is just a more complex branch off of this.