A challenge to our dear Christian friends.

[MHz]

No, there's no "if" about it at all. I'm saying that Revelation is not about future events.

Calling an elephant's trunk a leg doesn't mean a elephant has 5 legs now does it? There isn't one event Revelation covers that has even started, let alone being finished.

It's about the political and religious situation around the end of the first century AD, at the time Domitian was the Roman Emperor--he was assassinated in 96--and running a major persecution of Christianity.

Old Rome in Revelation is the reference to the 6th king, that's it. Rome went on for a few hundred years and that is all it rated in terms of being mentioned.
Re:17:10:
And there are seven kings:
five are fallen,
and one is,
and the other is not yet come;
and when he cometh,
he must continue a short space.

Who controlled Jerusalem after that has little if any importance because the last two before Christ are the important ones. The successors to Rome may not have her name but they are still from the same cloth.

Apocalyptic writings generally appear when the true believers are being oppressed and evil appears to be triumphant, so somebody feels it necessary to offer reassurance that god's not actually asleep at the switch, there's a plan being worked out, things will get better soon, and the oppressors will be destroyed.

Rome had control of Jerusalem for 150 years (about) before Revelation was penned (if you go by the later date of when some think it was written). Hardly fitting to write about deliverance when Jerusalem was already in ruins. While Rome did persecute Christians it was less than what the Jews did, even outside of Israel.

Revelation says right at the beginning, in the third verse, that the time is at hand; I don't see how you can logically stretch that far into the indefinite future, certainly not as far as our own time.

Like I said before, should the writer of Revelation been kept alive so that book could be written so 'time is at hand' is more understandable. Time is at hand means the prophecies that need to be fulfilled before His return are about to begin to unfold. Doesn't matter if it is 2,000 years or 20,000 years. Kind of hard for Christ to tell the writer how much time to put in there when God alone knows how much time would pass between His ascension and His return. Nor does that leave any time for the Gospel to be preached to the whole world if the ink was still wet in 90AD.

The apocalyptic chapters of Isaiah grew out of the same kind of thing: serious persecution of the Jews by the Seleucid Empire.

Isaiah covers a lot of time, past and even what is future to us that are live today.

The last half of Daniel is also about that, the Seleucid persecution under Antiochus.

LOL Antioch is so important he is covered by this statement,
Da:9:25: ..... even in troublous times.
If he was important he would have been mentioned in the chapter about the 'brass kingdom' as one of the 4 kings that comes after Alex, he isn't, instead Scripture jumps right to Rome's part during the time the Messiah was in Jerusalem and upto the time the city and temple were sacked.
Da:8:9:
And out of one of them came forth a little horn,
which waxed exceeding great,
toward the south,
and toward the east,
and toward the pleasant land.
Da:8:10:
And it waxed great,
even to the host of heaven;
and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.
Da:8:11:
Yea,
he magnified himself even to the prince of the host,
and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away,
and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.
Da:8:12:
And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression,
and it cast down the truth to the ground;
and it practised,
and prospered.

Daniel 11 is only about the kingdom of iron and clay.

Since apocalyptic writings talk about the fall of empires that are then firmly in power, and there was no such thing as legitimate democratic dissent at the time, the writings were done in terms of myths and symbols the oppressed would understand but the foreign oppressors would not, to avoid charges of treason and sedition and the various nasty consequences of them.

Yeah Jesus was real careful about what He said right to the face of the temple priests.
M't:23:23: Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
M't:23:24: Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.
M't:23:25: Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.
M't:23:26: Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.
M't:23:27: Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.
M't:23:28: Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.
M't:23:29:
Woe unto you,
scribes and Pharisees,
hypocrites!
because ye build the tombs of the prophets,
and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,
M't:23:30:
And say,
If we had been in the days of our fathers,
we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.
M't:23:31:
Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves,
that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.
M't:23:32:
Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
M't:23:33:
Ye serpents,
ye generation of vipers,
how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
M't:23:34:
Wherefore,
behold,
I send unto you prophets,
and wise men,
and scribes:
and some of them ye shall kill and crucify;
and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues,
and persecute them from city to city:
M't:23:35:
That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth,
from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias,
whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
M't:23:36:
Verily I say unto you,
All these things shall come upon this generation.
M't:23:37:
O Jerusalem,
Jerusalem,
thou that killest the prophets,
and stonest them which are sent unto thee,
how often would I have gathered thy children together,
even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
M't:23:38:
Behold,
your house is left unto you desolate.
M't:23:39:
For I say unto you,
Ye shall not see me henceforth,
till ye shall say,
Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

The four beasts Daniel identifies, for instance, are the four major powers in the area: the Chaldeans (the winged lion), the Medians (the bear), the Persians (the 4-headed leopard), and the Seleucids.

That isn't quite right. They relate to what is described by the statue of Ch2. The head was Neb and his son, the silver actually covers 2 kings,
Da:5:30: In that night was Belshazzar the king of the Chaldeans slain.
Da:5:31: And Darius the Median took the kingdom, being about threescore and two years old.

These are the bear, the 3rd rib is Cyrus the Persian. Since he was a Persian that remains as 2 kings (when counting up the 8 kings in Revelation)

The brass has a total of 5 kings, Alex and 4 after that. The way Alex's kingdom was divided on 3 of the 4 actually had any control over Jerusalem. Add 4 kings to the count in Revelation, making Rome the 6th, 2 to go. We are still in the kingdom of the brass, Satan is the 7th king and he is who the iron and clay are about.

Da:8:22:
Now that being broken,
whereas four stood up for it,
four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation,
but not in his power.
Da:8:23:
And in the latter time of their kingdom,
when the transgressors are come to the full,
a king of fierce countenance,
and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

The ones in Vs:22 are the 4 heads of the leopard.
Da:7:6:
After this I beheld,
and lo another,
like a leopard,
which had upon the back of it four wings of a fowl;
the beast had also four heads;
and dominion was given to it.

That last isn't associated with an identified animal, but it's described as having 10 horns, then a little horn appears and three of the first 10 horns are uprooted. Each horn is a king in the Seleucid line, Antiochus is the little horn, he became king after a short civil war, he got rid of three pretenders, leaving seven, and he became the 8th king, Antiochus IV. The four heads of the leopard are four Persian kings, who come into the tale again later. And so it goes.

This is about Satan, the Beast from the Pit (fallen angel) and the False Prophet. Any section of Daniel that covers the iron and clay is about these 3, once they are done the earth belongs to Christ and is again a possession of the Kingdom of God.

Most apocalyptic writings are readily explicable with known historical facts. But you do need to have a reference that tells you what they are. The Bible's not it.

You have to understand what the Bible actually says before trying to blend in historical events.

 

[mrgrumpy]

Similitudes, metaphors, interpretations,"context", alliteration; don't any of our dear Christian friends take God's Holy Word at face value any more?... rather than always watering it down, to make it seem less wicked?

If Holy Scripture says unruly children must be stoned why are you wasting your time banging out excuses on a keyboard when the Jehovah Almighty, Creator of all that is Seen and Unseen is waiting for you to do His bidding?

Slackers!!

Your immortal souls are in dire jeopardy of everlasting torment and hellfire!!!

 

[MHz]

The bible uses instances in stories to form similitudes of what the spiritual work is being done.

You seem to take the Bible as being mostly, if not all, figurative. Like the healing of the salty water (Eze:47 as an example) which means nothing about what it says. Taking verses literally. Especially ones that denote what could only be done through 'Godly power', am I correct in that assumption?
I don't discount Scripture as having figurative parts, or verses that are wisdom just by themselves, but those are just words, not really 'in your face' examples of power. A more literal view demands certain verses being made manifested by what could only come through power. A couple of example verses,
M't:21:21:
Jesus answered and said unto them,
Verily I say unto you,
If ye have faith,
and doubt not,
ye shall not only do this which is done to the fig tree,
but also if ye shall say unto this mountain,
Be thou removed,
and be thou cast into the sea;
it shall be done.

Lu:17:6:
And the Lord said,
If ye had faith as a grain of mustard seed,
ye might say unto this sycamine tree,
Be thou plucked up by the root,
and be thou planted in the sea;
and it should obey you.

Are these kinds of feats ever going to be possible or is this just figurative language?

I would say they will be possible at some point (certainly not right now, probably not even until after Judgment Day and we are in the new earth).

I would base that on being more than somewhat possible because of this verse.
1Co:4:20: For the kingdom of God is not in word, but in power.

 

[Dexter Sinister]

You have to understand what the Bible actually says before trying to blend in historical events.

No, that's completely the wrong way around. You have to understand the historical context in which the texts were written before you can understand what the Bible actually says.

 

[darkbeaver]

For you, Beaver, THEY would make the exception, I'm sure! Just to have you in heaven would be worth putting up with a few cats, even dogs!!!;-):lol::lol:
Just don't bring your snake, because I am scared of the creature!!!

Thankyou DL, you're a sweetie, my cat died three years ago, I still miss him terribly, His name was Khan, he used to eat baby bunnies under my bed. What I'v never understood about heaven is this stupid christian injunction against pets/animals. I thought what with the advances in DNA science that all that dominion nonesence would end. I'm very suspicious about a heaven without animals DL, somethings not right with that. Are plants allowed into heaven? I still speak to my cat through a medium once in a while or if I'v had lots of good cannibis I can get there without the medium. My cats very happy, but he's not allowed to discuss details though.

 

[MHz]

Similitudes, metaphors, interpretations,"context", alliteration; don't any of our dear Christian friends take God's Holy Word at face value any more?... rather than always watering it down, to make it seem less wicked?

If Holy Scripture says unruly children must be stoned why are you wasting your time banging out excuses on a keyboard when the Jehovah Almighty, Creator of all that is Seen and Unseen is waiting for you to do His bidding?

Slackers!!

Your immortal souls are in dire jeopardy of everlasting torment and hellfire!!!

Obviously your parents haven't adopted your view. I also assume you are now childless no matter how many you might have been a father to at one time in the past.

 

[MHz]

His name was Khan, he used to eat baby bunnies under my bed.

I hope I'm there to hear him apologize to those bunnies.

 

[darkbeaver]

It's hilarious on many levels that conspriacy guys dump on religion.

Yes, god is fake but somehow GWB caused 9/11 to further his Dads oil interests.

What a joke you are.:lol:

We have something in common, I think you're one of the funniest posters here Avro.I especially like your mixture of standup wide eyed innocent simplton pieces and your broken english destroys me. :lol:

 

[MHz]

No, that's completely the wrong way around. You have to understand the historical context in which the texts were written before you can understand what the Bible actually says.

Most history books agree about when Pontius Pilate became governor of Judaea, start looking at Herod and the dates for when he did things the dates are all over the place.

 

[darkbeaver]

It's hilarious on many levels that conspriacy guys dump on religion.

Yes, god is fake but somehow GWB caused 9/11 to further his Dads oil interests.

What a joke you are.:lol:

Have you no decency man, Trolling in a religious thread is the lowest Avro.:lol:

 

[darkbeaver]

The Bible is nothing more than an astro-theological literary fold hybrid, just like nearly all religious myths before it. [S170] [S171] [S172] [S173] [S174]In fact, the aspect of transference, of one character's attributes to a new character, can be found within the book itself. In the Old Testament there's the story of Joseph. Joseph was a prototype for Jesus. Joseph was born of a miracle birth, [S175] Jesus was born of a miracle birth. [S176] Joseph was of 12 brothers, [S177] Jesus had 12 disciples. [S178] Joseph was sold for 20 pieces of silver, [S179]Jesus was sold for 30 pieces of silver. [S180] Brother "Judah" suggests the sale of Joseph, [S181] disciple "Judas" suggests the sale of Jesus. [S182] Joseph began his work at the age of 30, [S183]Jesus began his work at the age of 30. [S184] The parallels go on and on.​

Furthermore, is there any non-Biblical historical evidence of any person, living with the name Jesus, the Son of Mary, who traveled about with 12 followers, healing people and the like? There are numerous historians who lived in and around the Mediterranean either during or soon after the assumed life of Jesus.[S185] How many of these historians document this figure? Not one. [S186] However, to be fair, that doesn't mean defenders of the Historical Jesus haven't claimed the contrary. Four historians are typically referenced to justify Jesus's existence. Pliny the younger, Suetonius, Tacitus and the first three. [M] [S187] Each one of their entries consists of only a few sentences at best and only refer to the Christus or the Christ, which in fact is not name but a title. It means the "Anointed one" [S188] The fourth source is Josephus and this source has been proven to be a forgery for hundreds of years.[S189] Sadly, it is still sited as truth.http://zeitgeistmovie.com/transcript.htm

 

[Dexter Sinister]

Most history books agree about when Pontius Pilate became governor of Judaea, start looking at Herod and the dates for when he did things the dates are all over the place.

I don't see your point. The consensus seems pretty clear that he died in 4 BCE, he was a client king of the Roman Empire for several decades before that, and the events attributed to him took place within the normal life span of somebody who died in 4 BCE. What do you mean by "all over the place?" They differ by a few years in different accounts? Hardly enough to change the historical context.

 

[darkbeaver]

I hope I'm there to hear him apologize to those bunnies.

But would he be required to do so MHz? Lettus assume that god has given my cat dominion over tiny furry creatures and that my cat obeyed gods command and showed proper reverence for his/her devine design while consuming the offered bunnies all according to gods plan. Similarly, would you expect those bunnies to apologize to the vegetables it ate before it met my cat? A brutal death in these aformentioned cases seems to be the wellspring of life and gods love.:smile:

 

[harleyhunny]

A person beliefs are thier own right, and own doing, and no one has the right to tell another what they should believe in, or what they believe in is bull****. That is bull****.
I believe in God, and witchcraft. Both work well.

 

[mrgrumpy]

Person's beliefs end where they cause harm to others.

Just ask the Jewish people.

 

[MHz]

I don't see your point. The consensus seems pretty clear that he died in 4 BCE, he was a client king of the Roman Empire for several decades before that, and the events attributed to him took place within the normal life span of somebody who died in 4 BCE. What do you mean by "all over the place?" They differ by a few years in different accounts? Hardly enough to change the historical context.

I was just pointing out that not all books on history say the same thing, that is error, no matter how small the scale.

When you examine what this verses says happens, are you going to find it in any history book? Since you won't find it, does it mean it never happened?
2Ki:19:35:
And it came to pass that night,
that the angel of the LORD went out,
and smote in the camp of the Assyrians an hundred fourscore and five thousand:
and when they arose early in the morning,
behold,
they were all dead corpses.

A year or two ago there was some TV show about finding a tomb that might have been Jesus's. They had access to it for a bit and then it was welded shut. When it was being welded some people involved with the show were in the room watching the welding process without any protective eye-wear. The next morning when the got up and (most likely) had a severe case of welders flash do you think any of them thought they were having a religious experience?

You take the Bible to be a work of fiction. No big deal really. Shouldn't you have a clear understanding of what that 'fictional book' is actually saying? Since Antioch isn't mentioned in Scripture how would you determine that he is covered in any great degree. Rome is certainly covered in more detail, Satan is covered in even more detail, yet you attribute a large portion of the last part of Daniel to somebody who isn't mentioned by name or even hinted at.
The last verse of Daniel 11 is not the end of the passage just because it is the end of a page. This verse belongs to what Ch:11 ends with.
Da:12:1:
And at that time shall Michael stand up,
the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people:
and there shall be a time of trouble,
such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time:
and at that time thy people shall be delivered,
every one that shall be found written in the book.
Da:12:2:
And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life,
and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

This should have happened years and years before Herod was alive in Jerusalem. It hasn't ever happened so it is part of prophecy that has yet to be fulfilled.

Revelation is past, in your view, surely somebody would have said a word or two in some history book about an event of this magnitude.
Re:16:18:
And there were voices,
and thunders,
and lightnings;
and there was a great earthquake,
such as was not since men were upon the earth,
so mighty an earthquake,
and so great.
Re:16:19:
And the great city was divided into three parts,
and the cities of the nations fell:
and great Babylon came in remembrance before God,
to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.

This is about power, nothing figurative or symbolic about anything that will be done in that whole chapter. It also happens very quickly.

Re:18:8:
Therefore shall her plagues come in one day,
death,
and mourning,
and famine;
and she shall be utterly burned with fire:
for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.

 

[Dexter Sinister]

I was just pointing out that not all books on history say the same thing, that is error, no matter how small the scale.

Sure it's error. So what? It doesn't materially alter the argument. The Bible contains errors too, of at least the same magnitude.

When you examine what this verses says happens, are you going to find it in any history book? Since you won't find it, does it mean it never happened?

Of course not, but just because you do find it in the Bible doesn't mean it did happen. Herodotus does record a sudden retreat by the Assyrian army and attributes it to a plague of rodents that chewed up their gear, though it's more likely to have been some infectious disease. Assyrian records don't mention defeats, only glorious victories, though the last century of Assyria's existence was a constant losing battle against rebellious vassals.

You take the Bible to be a work of fiction. No big deal really. Shouldn't you have a clear understanding of what that 'fictional book' is actually saying?

It's not entirely a work of fiction, but I think I have a better understanding of it than you do. You evidently think it must be literally true, correct, and consistent in all particulars. No single source deserves that kind of respect.

 

[harleyhunny]

Person's beliefs end where they cause harm to others.

Just ask the Jewish people.

:?:Why?

 

[MHz]

It's not entirely a work of fiction, but I think I have a better understanding of it than you do.

Oh, and why would you think that? You seemed to have swallowed up some stories that are in contradiction to what the texts actually say, like introducing Antioch. A lot of people say the same thing you promote. Antioch should have been in chapter eight, the one about the brass right? You move him into a chapter about the iron and clay (in that the 4 parts of the statue are covered in various chapters of Daniel)Do the events mentioned by what that 1 of those 4 horns fit Rome or not? The direction between Rome and Jerusalem is even given.

You evidently think it must be literally true, correct, and consistent in all particulars. No single source deserves that kind of respect.

Those are exactly the standards that book (of any book ever written down) should be held to. The readers understanding or interpretation is subject to introducing error. Multiple references in different sections take care of those 'human flaws'.
If even this verse is in error then the whole book should be rejected as containing any truth at all.
2Tm:3:16:
All scripture is given by inspiration of God,
and is profitable for doctrine,
for reproof,
for correction,
for instruction in righteousness:

That doesn't mean it isn't complicated. The very first chapter of the very first book is a prime example.
Why was time not established (day, seasons, and years) until after the seas were made? Answer, our orbit around the sun would be different if the weight of all the water was present or absent. Where did the water originally come from? It seems it came from off the earth.
Isa:55:10:
For as the rain cometh down,
and the snow from heaven,
and returneth not thither,
but watereth the earth,
and maketh it bring forth and bud,
that it may give seed to the sower,
and bread to the eater:

What came down did not return to where it came from. When God talks about rain in Job you don't get the impression that once it comes from the clouds it stays where it lands. Ch: 36 & 38 also have verses about rain.

Job:26:8: He bindeth up the waters in his thick clouds; and the cloud is not rent under them.

 

[MHz]

But would he be required to do so MHz? Lettus assume that god has given my cat dominion over tiny furry creatures and that my cat obeyed gods command and showed proper reverence for his/her devine design while consuming the offered bunnies all according to gods plan. Similarly, would you expect those bunnies to apologize to the vegetables it ate before it met my cat? A brutal death in these aformentioned cases seems to be the wellspring of life and gods love.:smile:

You're probably right, it would be the person who killed the bunnies that would be the one apologizing. Vegetables don't don't have the breath of life that bunnies (and cats) do. If lions and such will be eating grass like an ox in the new earth, do you think Eden was like that before the fall or was it flesh consuming flesh like it is today? BTW, I don't chastise my cats when they catch a mouse or a bird. I do however, tell them to quit bringing such things into the house, still waiting for them to pay attention to that command though.