War in the Balkans was and is a function of Gladio and therefore cause by American and British agencys left in theater after WWII, turkey just arrested some last week. If Europe didn't want to handle war in thier backyard why did America?
Europeans see what America cannot
- Thread starter Avro
- Start date
I agree Jim. Europeans are incapable of any action that threatens the status quo. While Europe fought during the Second World War, the United States stood by for two years and then entered the war only after the Japanese bombing of Pearl Harbour.... a similar attitude that is being expressed in Europe today.
While the United States conducted business with Nazi Germany...the European nations and Russia and China beyond those parameters are engaged in business with Iran and prior to the American invaision of Iraq, were involved in investing and building inside that nation.
What goes around comes around and while we might wag our fingers at one side or the other over who should or shouldn't be involved in "fighting terrorism", would the United States tolerate sanctions imposed by Europe or any other nation for the decades of American involvement in Africa or South America or Nicaragua...? Terrorism is what the patriot refers to when he's trying to summon support for his particular cause... Duty and patriotism are the "explanations" the terrorist will provide for selling arms and proving intelligence to various factions....
No clear or easy answers either way...
While the United States conducted business with Nazi Germany...the European nations and Russia and China beyond those parameters are engaged in business with Iran and prior to the American invaision of Iraq, were involved in investing and building inside that nation.
What goes around comes around and while we might wag our fingers at one side or the other over who should or shouldn't be involved in "fighting terrorism", would the United States tolerate sanctions imposed by Europe or any other nation for the decades of American involvement in Africa or South America or Nicaragua...? Terrorism is what the patriot refers to when he's trying to summon support for his particular cause... Duty and patriotism are the "explanations" the terrorist will provide for selling arms and proving intelligence to various factions....
No clear or easy answers either way...
War in the Balkans was and is a function of Gladio and therefore cause by American and British agencys left in theater after WWII, turkey just arrested some last week. If Europe didn't want to handle war in thier backyard why did America?
------------------------------------Darkbeaver-------------------------------------------------------------
Half the State Department was threatening to quit over Clinton's reluctance (reluctance for almost his entire Presidency) to get militarily involved in 1991, after 8 years of Tony Blair trying to get the allies in Europe and America to cohesively stop Milosovic in Serbia.
And yes, the Versailles Peace treaty drew up the boundaries of Tito's Yugoslavia.
------------------------------------Darkbeaver-------------------------------------------------------------
Half the State Department was threatening to quit over Clinton's reluctance (reluctance for almost his entire Presidency) to get militarily involved in 1991, after 8 years of Tony Blair trying to get the allies in Europe and America to cohesively stop Milosovic in Serbia.
And yes, the Versailles Peace treaty drew up the boundaries of Tito's Yugoslavia.
Struggles for tribal power among warlords isn't political? Favouring one tribe over another isn't political? Restrictions placed on the free range of a traditionally nomadic people by a geopolitical boundary drawn by outsiders isn't political? People who aren't born into and cannot understand an occupier's culture forced to accept the rules of that alien civilization isn't political? What gives one nation the luxury of believing what's right in the world they know should apply to the world at large? It's that sort of arrogance that paints targets.
You handed out tons of food, water, medicine, rebuilt their towns. Big deal! Can't you understand, people end up dependent on the hand-outs - and the waste from every US encampment. If you give a person a fish, he'll eat for a day - but you can teach that person how to fish, he'll eat forever. Did you teach them how to be self-supporting or did you teach them how to be dependent on your good mood? The former wins respect. The latter shows contempt for their culture. That only paints a picture of resent and hate.
The United States has a terrible history of throwing money at a problem, then expecting returns. That earns no respect - for how much respect can you get from an addict? That isn't much better than date rape. Why do they feel so betrayed when your mission is over and you go back home? You abandoned them. If you want to be respected, you have to earn it. You have to know - to actually live - their way before anyone is going to truly understand yours. You can't buy the hearts and minds of people.
Did you learn NOTHING from Vietnam?
Woof!
Last edited:
I'll tell you one lesson most Republicans did not learn from Vietnam, and that's the fact that Ho Chi Minh could have been our staunchest ally.
On the day he died he was reading a biography of John Brown, the guy who led a slave revolt and got hung for it about 20 miles from here in 1859.
Ho Chi Minh was very very familiar with our heritage and founding fathers and read extensively about us, way before WWII.
In fact as a dishwasher in Paris he dared to approach Woodrow Wilson to have his country right after the Kurds, hat in hand, asked for theirs, who followed the Armenians who only have theirs because of the Soviet breakup.
Our best and brightest could never understand Ho Chi Minh was more the nationalist than the stinking bogeyman commie.
On the day he died he was reading a biography of John Brown, the guy who led a slave revolt and got hung for it about 20 miles from here in 1859.
Ho Chi Minh was very very familiar with our heritage and founding fathers and read extensively about us, way before WWII.
In fact as a dishwasher in Paris he dared to approach Woodrow Wilson to have his country right after the Kurds, hat in hand, asked for theirs, who followed the Armenians who only have theirs because of the Soviet breakup.
Our best and brightest could never understand Ho Chi Minh was more the nationalist than the stinking bogeyman commie.
oh...
and another thing....
a-rr-r-r-r-r-ruffff!!
arrrrrrrgh
r-r-r-r-r-r-r--r-r-errrrrrrrrrrr RUFFF
WOOF
WAOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
where um
uh where's my meds ?
and another thing....
a-rr-r-r-r-r-ruffff!!
arrrrrrrgh
r-r-r-r-r-r-r--r-r-errrrrrrrrrrr RUFFF
WOOF
WAOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
where um
uh where's my meds ?
Whereas Ho Chi Minh could have been a very trusted and willing and knowledgeable ally, I don't see the same with the Taliban. I don't think we're going to stop them. Also they're a rather intense segment bullying the silent older generations.
I think a black man with a muslim name might change the dance we are doing with them.
I think a black man with a muslim name might change the dance we are doing with them.
US blew it with Ho Chi Minh. Uncle Sam misread his intentions when Ho chose to be on friendly terms with neighbour (and ancient enemy) China, and accepted Russian aid for his Nationalist movement. Ho didn't understand American fear of communism. No doubt he felt more than a bit betrayed when an anti-colonialist US switched sides to support French colonialism.
Was US supporting the wrong tribe in the battle to evict Russia from Afghanistan? We don't understand the dynamics of inter-tribal relations or the feuds between them. Jealousy has fuelled more wars than any border dispute.
Taliban won't be beaten. You have to know who they are and roughing up the locals just makes more of them. Unless you're going to have someone living with them who isn't going to abandon them, you'll never gain their trust, you'll never stop Taliban from sauntering in the moment that last Hum-vee leaves town and you'll never be able to keep your word. US may reach a compromise ... but in order to do that, US would have to swallow some pride too.
Woof!
Last edited:
Stop Milosovic from doing what? Every bit of the rot the mainstream media pushed at that time was just that rot. Milosovic was guilty of nothing, Serbia was guilty of nothing. Wait for the 17th when Kosovo declares itself a nation, and you'll begin to understand what 1991 was about.
Hitler and Mussolini enjoyed initial success in their wars of imperialistic terrorism as did Bush. But eventually, the Nazis were stopped. And soon enough Hitlerian Bush's imperialistic campaign will be stopped as well.
Boy what will you do when Bush leaves office? He's a lame duck Gopher. He will be out in less than a year. All of your ramblings of Bush being president for life (or the new King) are all for not. I will almost feel sorry for you if Obama gets in.
From the Vietnam point of view it was more a war of unification than communism vs. democracy. They asked Uncle Ho how long he would fight and he replied that it was up to the Americans. He added if they want to stop fighting we can sit down and have tea tomorrow.
During the Soviet invasion we backed the unified tribes in their common goal to expel the Soviets. It did not matter as they were not a threat at the time. The Taliban originated from the madras in Pakistan and most of the Taliban were too young to fight against the Ruskies. They entered the scene during the Civil War after the Soviets left. True we supported tribes that eventually supported the Taliban but we also supported tribes that made up the Northern Alliance which helped to rid the Taliban as the ruling power. Our goal in Afghanistan was payback for the Soviet support of N. Vietnam in the opinion of many. It was all fun and games seeing us struggle in Vietnam but when the Soviets started seeing their choppers go down in Afghanistan it wasn't funny anymore.
It will be interesting to see how Afghanistan turns out. If we have to swallow pride you Canadians do too. You may not be in Iraq but your boots are on the ground in Afghanistan. We succeed together or we fail together.
Rather tragic that forty years later, Vietnam can be said to have been a civil war without fear of condemnation. As far as Afghanistan, "paybacks are a bi*ch" is really amazing logic. The sad part is, as soon as Russia was gone, so were the United States - and their neat toys and medicine. All of a sudden the money tree is uprooted. Can you not imagine the sort of rage that would fire among people who have come to depend on the Great Benefactor? It doesn't take a psychic to see someone with a lot of promises gaining a lot of followers.
I have no predictions for Afghanistan. How do we change a way of life that has existed for centuries? How do we silence they whose voices have become important? How do we keep religion out of it? The change can't be forced on them. We've seen the result that has. That makes us no better than the terrorist we're trying to suppress. The only way we are ever going to get co-operation is by winning their trust. That means living at their level - because we are in THEIR house.
Woof!
Last edited:
Eagle,
You Republicans have f***** up the USA and it's still not enough for you. If Obama wins in November (assuming those Democrats actually decide to finally win back the White House which they voluntarily gave up), he will still have to deal with a ultra right wing activist Supreme Court which feels that torture and violating every international law in the book is perfectly OK.
That will only be the first of the many problem he will face because it will take a major miracle to solve all the problems created by your hero Bush. And if Hillary wins it will be even more of a task because so many reich wingers in Congress hate her guts.
You Republicans have f***** up the USA and it's still not enough for you. If Obama wins in November (assuming those Democrats actually decide to finally win back the White House which they voluntarily gave up), he will still have to deal with a ultra right wing activist Supreme Court which feels that torture and violating every international law in the book is perfectly OK.
That will only be the first of the many problem he will face because it will take a major miracle to solve all the problems created by your hero Bush. And if Hillary wins it will be even more of a task because so many reich wingers in Congress hate her guts.
Actually I've been a long fan of John McCain and wanted him to beat Bush in 2000.
But when Lieberman leaned into McCain to whisper that McCain just said something really stupid about al Qaeda (sunni) working in Iran (Shia), it gave me pause. McCain also admitted he didn't know much about the economy.
I'm really wondering about those 2 statements of his.
I'm already primed as a Republican to join the Barak Obama wagon.
I'd really like to see him in the general election. He'll make the debate more interesting.
But when Lieberman leaned into McCain to whisper that McCain just said something really stupid about al Qaeda (sunni) working in Iran (Shia), it gave me pause. McCain also admitted he didn't know much about the economy.
I'm really wondering about those 2 statements of his.
I'm already primed as a Republican to join the Barak Obama wagon.
I'd really like to see him in the general election. He'll make the debate more interesting.
Europeans see what America cannot.
Americans can’t come to terms with their self-infatuation long enough to look at something beyond “America”…..
When it comes to maintaining the consumer life-style of “America” all bets are off. Americans will forego any and all personal accountability for the invasion of Iraq and will refuse to hold their government responsible for the carnage waste and murder of thousands. Many Americans have admitted the truth, that the administration of George Bush and the subsequent years of atrocities in Iraq was born out of lies and deception….. and yet where is the great mechanism of “rule under law” that’s supposedly one of the fundamentals behind the American zeitgeist?
Maybe it’s reflected in the Elliot Spitzers of American “democracy”..?
Maybe it’s reflected in the fact that America’s unresolved and largely unaddressed xenophobia (even when living with the aftermath of supporting slavery for generations and wondering why the problem persists)..that a candidate for the highest office feels the need to address this issue?
Maybe it’s reflected in the willingness of Americans to stand idly by while their government “shores-up” the wealthiest American financial institutions while the greater majority of people begin to feel the impact of a treasonous government….
Make no mistake here. The actions of George Bush et al. are exactly that, treasonous.
Government “of the people for the people by the people” isn’t what G. W. Bush stands for and the sentiment isn’t glaringly obvious to anyone who’s experienced the corruption of government in America over the past fifty years.
And Americans sit on their hands.
Everytime Europeans and Canadians and people the world over see yet another example of the calibre of “American Democracy” as reflected in their self-consumed arrogant deprecation, the immaturity and childlike adoslescence of the fabric of “America” speaks volumes.
It’s one thing to recognize that an Administration is culpable in contributing to the destruction of nations in the name of oil and generation of wealth through war-profiteeering, it’s quite another to witness the apathy and smugness of a government that’s conditioned the people of a once free nation to accept the corruption and infamy of its highest offices as “normal”.
America is only beginning to suffer….Europeans have the ‘advantage’ of watching as their own history demonstrates repeatedly that the willingness to build walls and “circle the wagons” can only result in something that’s been the plague of war and strife across that continent for generation after generation.
Americans are simply too stupid to learn anything about the long-term costs of their malfeasance because there’ve never been bombers over the United States and Americans haven’t suffered for their arrogance. That’s changing and what these people should understand and don’t is that the invitation for destruction and years of hardship doesn’t come from some insane Islamic fundamentalist or some rabid “Communist” but from the liars and phonies they’ve elected to public office.
Americans can’t come to terms with their self-infatuation long enough to look at something beyond “America”…..
When it comes to maintaining the consumer life-style of “America” all bets are off. Americans will forego any and all personal accountability for the invasion of Iraq and will refuse to hold their government responsible for the carnage waste and murder of thousands. Many Americans have admitted the truth, that the administration of George Bush and the subsequent years of atrocities in Iraq was born out of lies and deception….. and yet where is the great mechanism of “rule under law” that’s supposedly one of the fundamentals behind the American zeitgeist?
Maybe it’s reflected in the Elliot Spitzers of American “democracy”..?
Maybe it’s reflected in the fact that America’s unresolved and largely unaddressed xenophobia (even when living with the aftermath of supporting slavery for generations and wondering why the problem persists)..that a candidate for the highest office feels the need to address this issue?
Maybe it’s reflected in the willingness of Americans to stand idly by while their government “shores-up” the wealthiest American financial institutions while the greater majority of people begin to feel the impact of a treasonous government….
Make no mistake here. The actions of George Bush et al. are exactly that, treasonous.
Government “of the people for the people by the people” isn’t what G. W. Bush stands for and the sentiment isn’t glaringly obvious to anyone who’s experienced the corruption of government in America over the past fifty years.
And Americans sit on their hands.
Everytime Europeans and Canadians and people the world over see yet another example of the calibre of “American Democracy” as reflected in their self-consumed arrogant deprecation, the immaturity and childlike adoslescence of the fabric of “America” speaks volumes.
It’s one thing to recognize that an Administration is culpable in contributing to the destruction of nations in the name of oil and generation of wealth through war-profiteeering, it’s quite another to witness the apathy and smugness of a government that’s conditioned the people of a once free nation to accept the corruption and infamy of its highest offices as “normal”.
America is only beginning to suffer….Europeans have the ‘advantage’ of watching as their own history demonstrates repeatedly that the willingness to build walls and “circle the wagons” can only result in something that’s been the plague of war and strife across that continent for generation after generation.
Americans are simply too stupid to learn anything about the long-term costs of their malfeasance because there’ve never been bombers over the United States and Americans haven’t suffered for their arrogance. That’s changing and what these people should understand and don’t is that the invitation for destruction and years of hardship doesn’t come from some insane Islamic fundamentalist or some rabid “Communist” but from the liars and phonies they’ve elected to public office.
Americans can’t come to terms with their self-infatuation long enough to look at something beyond “America”….. ----MikeyDB
MikeyDB, I couldn't agree more.
Having island nation mentality is slowly changing because of the hispanic migration, and the net making this world smaller and closer.
But this self-infatuation inflicts all national mythologies. No one seems to learn off the other.
The EU miserably fail on a 500 page bureaucratic monstrosity called a constitution, when such a unity of states could draw some value from the US constitution.
The US won't inform its national debate on health care by looking, really looking, at Europe and Canada's experience. The US politics prefers to sensationalize and jerry-pick.
MikeyDB, I couldn't agree more.
Having island nation mentality is slowly changing because of the hispanic migration, and the net making this world smaller and closer.
But this self-infatuation inflicts all national mythologies. No one seems to learn off the other.
The EU miserably fail on a 500 page bureaucratic monstrosity called a constitution, when such a unity of states could draw some value from the US constitution.
The US won't inform its national debate on health care by looking, really looking, at Europe and Canada's experience. The US politics prefers to sensationalize and jerry-pick.
Here's something Europeans can see that Americans cannot...
Dutch to legalise gay sex in public park
By Bruno Waterfield
Last Updated: 2:35am GMT 16/03/2008
Dutch council officials will permit gay sex in public areas but fine dog owners who let their pets off the leash in Amsterdam's Vondelpark.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2008/03/13/wgay113.xml
Yep..that European model..great stuff there. We Should all listen to them...
Dutch to legalise gay sex in public park
By Bruno Waterfield
Last Updated: 2:35am GMT 16/03/2008
Dutch council officials will permit gay sex in public areas but fine dog owners who let their pets off the leash in Amsterdam's Vondelpark.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2008/03/13/wgay113.xml
Yep..that European model..great stuff there. We Should all listen to them...