When does pro-choice become pro-abortion?

[Kreskin]

It's of no personal consequence to me. The consequence is to our society that comes to expect easy answers. And you are, I'm quite sure, aware that there are no easy answers.

What I'm seeing is a society that is becoming to comfortable in the notion that we can destroy ourselves as long as we maintain some avenue of 'quick fix'. The danger to our longevity and survival as a species, is, whether you choose to acknowledge it or not, very real. I see things like abortion to be but one symptom of an ailing society.

Nonsense. World population growth is doing quite well despite the ability to have a legal abortion.

I'm quite aware that the decision is complex, and the most appropriate decisions come from those directly involved. They certainly don't come from self-righteous bs'ers.

 

[Kreskin]

It's no consequence to me that Picton killed all those women. Is it any consequence to you?

He could've killed your daughter and perhaps could in the future if not locked up. A woman having an abortion is of no threat to your family or mine.

Equating Pickton to the right to an abortion is laughable.

 

[gerryh]

He could've killed your daughter and perhaps could in the future if not locked up. A woman having an abortion is of no threat to your family or mine.

Equating Pickton to the right to an abortion is laughable.

SO....some life is more important than others in your eyes.

Murder is murder is murder.

 

[Kreskin]

SO....some life is more important than others in your eyes.

Murder is murder is murder.

Baloney. Do you count the first 9 months within your mom when you talk about how old you are? No. You were a developing fetus, not a human being with full human rights. You weren't, and still aren't, recognized as being a person until your were born. You certainly didn't have the right to override your mothers right to her own body. That would be called slavery.

 

[warrior_won]

Nonsense. World population growth is doing quite well despite the ability to have a legal abortion.

I'm quite aware that the decision is complex, and the most appropriate decisions come from those directly involved. They certainly don't come from self-righteous bs'ers.

Who said anything about population? I was speaking to the mindset that one can carry on recklessly without consequence. The idea is not that the population suffers -- although, ultimately it would. The idea is that reckless abandon begets reckless abandon. To simply look at one symptom and dismiss it as benign is preposterous. The disease festers and the consequences are most severe.

In a nutshell, we're building a society that believes itself invincible, indestructible, and self-sustaining. We support this notion with the idea that we will be capable of achieving 'quick fixes' when the time comes. However, the evidence would show that we've never been prepared when "the time came" and we've never found the 'quick fix' we've always held to be on the horizon.

Self-righteous bullsh*tters versus self-serving opportunists. It's going to be quite the battle. I, for one, look forward to it with unreserved anticipation. :angryfire::lol::lol::lol::lol::angryfire:

 

[gerryh]

Baloney. Do you count the first 9 months within your mom when you talk about how old you are? No. You were a developing fetus, not a human being with full human rights. You weren't, and still aren't, recognized as being a person until your were born. You certainly didn't have the right to override your mothers right to her own body. That would be called slavery.

Bullshyte........ As WArrior has already said. It's a matter of responsibility. It seems these days though, people are unwilling to except responsibility for their actions. Take the easy way out and kill the little bugger...... it's only a "mass of tissue" anyways.


Small point....some ancient and backward peoples didn't consider a baby "human" untill that child was a year old. I see you haven't moved very far from that mindset.

 

[Zzarchov]

Yep, take responsibility for their actions, being raped and all that. Teach them to be over powered.

Its not about the mom if the baby is alive. It doesn't matter if she decided to screw 30 guys without protection or suffered a horrible rape.

If they baby is alive , the baby is alive and its not about personal responsibilty of the mother.

 

[gerryh]

Yep, take responsibility for their actions, being raped and all that. Teach them to be over powered.

Its not about the mom if the baby is alive. It doesn't matter if she decided to screw 30 guys without protection or suffered a horrible rape.

If they baby is alive , the baby is alive and its not about personal responsibilty of the mother.

:roll:

These are the abortion stats for Canada

http://www.webhart.net/vandee/abortstat.shtml


So are you saying the majority of these abortions are the result of Rape or a sexual assault?

 

[L Gilbert]

I don't think it should be up to anyone but the mother what happens with her child.
As far as the gov't goes, I think if the woman's health is endangered, whatever procedure should be just another medical procedure that's covered. Otherwise it should be self-funded.
As far as whether the child is life or not, if it moves on its own volition it is life. The thing about being utterly dependant on the mother is irrelevant. Mistletoe (tis the season so I'm using it as an example) is completely dependant on a host but it is still life.

 

[Kreskin]

Bullshyte........ As WArrior has already said. It's a matter of responsibility. It seems these days though, people are unwilling to except responsibility for their actions. Take the easy way out and kill the little bugger...... it's only a "mass of tissue" anyways.


Small point....some ancient and backward peoples didn't consider a baby "human" untill that child was a year old. I see you haven't moved very far from that mindset.

Responsibility for what? For being a biological human being?

I think it's absolutely irresponsible to not support the mother's wish to have one, no matter who she is, when she feels it is necessary for any number of legitimate reasons (many of which aren't anyone's damn business but her own).

BTW, Warrior's agenda is completely anti-female. The courts protect women from the stuff he promotes.

 

[Kreskin]

Rape? So who decides if a rape occured? The court timeline doesn't work to well.

 

[gerryh]

and what would a "legitimate " reason be?


and don't bother with the strawman rape and incest argument. The majority of abortions preformed in Canada have nothing to do with those 2 things.

 

[warrior_won]

BTW, Warrior's agenda is completely anti-female. The courts protect women from the stuff he promotes.

Actually, they don't. At least, they're not supposed to. There's nothing in any Canadian law that says criminal activity should be excused if it is conducted by a female. Women who break the law should go to jail just like anyone else.

Fact of the matter is that courts protect me from the kind of sh*t that women promote. I just need to get before a court, present the evidence, and sing my little burn bitch burn tune.

BTW, I don't have an agenda as far as females are concerned. I don't want a female in my life, but that's not an agenda. It's a choice. You support choice, right?

 

[Kreskin]

and what would a "legitimate " reason be?


and don't bother with the strawman rape and incest argument. The majority of abortions preformed in Canada have nothing to do with those 2 things.

Any reason she gives is legitimate (presuming she wants to give one, because it's actually no one's business but her own). Why the hell should a woman be required to explain her reproductive medical issues to anyone but her own physician?

 

[Kreskin]

Why is a woman required to make you understand the reason for an abortion? It's your responsibility to educate yourselves, not her.

 

[DurkaDurka]

Aside from the fact that I would never engage in sex with a hooker, if the sex were by consent... And both parties to the act recklessly conducted themselves in a manner that resulted in a pregnancy, then yeah, the hooker should have to go fullterm.

You are saying you would never have consensual sex with a hooker, you would only have unconsensual sex, ie rape? Or is that just some convoluted thought that managed to find it's way to the keyboard?

And spare me the nonsense about porn having anything to do with abortion. In case you hadn't noticed, most porn participants are very mindful of the fact that they could become pregnant. How do they deal with the risk? They use contraceptives.

In case you haevn't noticed, porn stars do not wear visible protection, they rely more on a "clean bill of health" test every so often, which isn't exactly safe

When you have something intelligent to say DurkaDurka, you can call me stupid. Until then, however, well....

No point stating anything approaching intelligent with you Warrior, I would rather give my toe nails the attention they deserve.

A woman goes out looking for a good time... She has sexual relations with someone she knows or doesn't know... She doesn't care about the risk of getting pregnant because... Well, she can just get an abortion. :roll::roll::roll:

That's her right. thankfuly this is Canada where rights are not dictated by armchair facists

Spare me, dude! I'm ANTI-ABORTION! Pro-choice isn't about women's rights or empowerment. It's about women being able to do as they bloody well please and not have to suffer the consequences. I mean, really. Anyone who thinks otherwise has got to be braindead!.

You are ANTI-ABORTION! Ummm... congratulations? Once again, thankfuly the people in charge of this country are not backwood rednecks like your self.

You sound awfuly familiar to an ex member from here named Westmanguy, I'm gonna do so google detective work to see if there is a link.

 

[Kreskin]

Regarding the original post by Karrie, a woman has the right to carry a baby and safeguard it.
Abortion (Canadian Criminal Code)


Procuring miscarriage
287. (1) Every one who, with intent to procure the miscarriage of a female person, whether or not she is pregnant, uses any means for the purpose of carrying out his intention is guilty of an indictable offence and liable to imprisonment for life.

Woman procuring her own miscarriage
(2) Every female person who, being pregnant, with intent to procure her own miscarriage, uses any means or permits any means to be used for the purpose of carrying out her intention is guilty of an indictable offence and liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding two years.
Definition of “means”
(3) In this section, "means" includes
(a) the administration of a drug or other noxious thing;

(b) the use of an instrument; and

(c) manipulation of any kind.

Exceptions
(4) Subsections (1) and (2) do not apply to
(a) a qualified medical practitioner, other than a member of a therapeutic abortion committee for any hospital, who in good faith uses in an accredited or approved hospital any means for the purpose of carrying out his intention to procure the miscarriage of a female person, or

(b) a female person who, being pregnant, permits a qualified medical practitioner to use in an accredited or approved hospital any means for the purpose of carrying out her intention to procure her own miscarriage,

if, before the use of those means, the therapeutic abortion committee for that accredited or approved hospital, by a majority of the members of the committee and at a meeting of the committee at which the case of the female person has been reviewed,

(c) has by certificate in writing stated that in its opinion the continuation of the pregnancy of the female person would or would be likely to endanger her life or health, and

(d) has caused a copy of that certificate to be given to the qualified medical practitioner.

Information requirement
(5) The Minister of Health of a province may by order
(a) require a therapeutic abortion committee for any hospital in that province, or any member thereof, to furnish him with a copy of any certificate described in paragraph (4)(c) issued by that committee, together with such other information relating to the circumstances surrounding the issue of that certificate as he may require; or

(b) require a medical practitioner who, in that province, has procured the miscarriage of any female person named in a certificate described in paragraph (4)(c), to furnish him with a copy of that certificate, together with such other information relating to the procuring of the miscarriage as he may require.

Definitions
(6) For the purposes of subsections (4) and (5) and this subsection,
"accredited hospital"
«hôpital accrédité » "accredited hospital" means a hospital accredited by the Canadian Council on Hospital Accreditation in which diagnostic services and medical, surgical and obstetrical treatment are provided;

"approved hospital"
«hôpital approuvé » "approved hospital" means a hospital in a province approved for the purposes of this section by the Minister of Health of that province;

"board"
«conseil » "board" means the board of governors, management or directors, or the trustees, commission or other person or group of persons having the control and management of an accredited or approved hospital;

"Minister of Health"
«ministre de la Santé » "Minister of Health" means

(a) in the Provinces of Ontario, Quebec, New Brunswick, Prince Edward Island, Manitoba and Newfoundland, the Minister of Health,

(b) in the Provinces of Nova Scotia and Saskatchewan, the Minister of Public Health, and

(c) in the Province of British Columbia, the Minister of Health Services and Hospital Insurance,

(d) in the Province of Alberta, the Minister of Hospitals and Medical Care,

(e) in Yukon, the Northwest Territories and Nunavut, the Minister of Health;

"qualified medical practitioner"
«médecin qualifié » "qualified medical practitioner" means a person entitled to engage in the practice of medicine under the laws of the province in which the hospital referred to in subsection (4) is situated;

"therapeutic abortion committee"
«comité de l’avortement thérapeutique » "therapeutic abortion committee" for any hospital means a committee, comprised of not less than three members each of whom is a qualified medical practitioner, appointed by the board of that hospital for the purpose of considering and determining questions relating to terminations of pregnancy within that hospital.

Requirement of consent not affected
(7) Nothing in subsection (4) shall be construed as making unnecessary the obtaining of any authorization or consent that is or may be required, otherwise than under this Act, before any means are used for the purpose of carrying out an intention to procure the miscarriage of a female person. R.S., 1985, c. C-46, s. 287; 1993, c. 28, s. 78; 1996, c. 8, s. 32; 2002, c. 7, s. 141.

Supplying noxious things
288. Every one who unlawfully supplies or procures a drug or other noxious thing or an instrument or thing, knowing that it is intended to be used or employed to procure the miscarriage of a female person, whether or not she is pregnant, is guilty of an indictable offence and liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding two years.
R.S., c. C-34, s. 252.


The law still applies however a subsequent Supreme Court ruling regarding the women's decision to abort said "forcing a woman," wrote the Chief Justice, Brian Dickson, "by threat of criminal sanction to carry a foetus to term unless she meets certain criteria unrelated to her own priorities and aspirations, is a profound interference with a woman's body and thus a violation of her security of the person." (based on the Charter of Rights). That ruling still means that anyone attempting to procur an abortion of someone else is still guilty of an indictable offense and subject to life imprisonment. That doesn't sound pro-abortion. It would certainly cover additional charges making a secondary law unnecessary.

 

[warrior_won]

Criminalise abortion. Any government that does re-criminalize abortion, and does so in a way that prevents the courts from striking the law down, will get my vote.

BTW, I think abortion laws would be a good use for the notwithstanding clause. I would vote for any government that did so. And that's my final word on the matter.

 

[tracy]

. And that's my final word on the matter.

That must be my eaarly Christmas present:lol:

 

[Kreskin]

Criminalise abortion. Any government that does re-criminalize abortion, and does so in a way that prevents the courts from striking the law down, will get my vote.

BTW, I think abortion laws would be a good use for the notwithstanding clause. I would vote for any government that did so. And that's my final word on the matter.

You could dovetail that with a change in head of state from Governor General to Grand Ayatolla.