More single women than men?

[Vereya]

And in this life where it's clear between the two that the man has the upper hand, some of the male partners feel it's their right to enforce things the female partners are not comfortable with. Please note I was saying some.

I've been thinking about this kind of thing recently, watching some of my friends' relationships with their boyfriends. You mentioned the example with Protugal, SwtSof, and I have to say that Russia is very similar in this respect, too. The economic situation is very difficult, and it is hard to survive alone, especially for a woman. It's not like you can work as a teacher, for example, and have a sufficient income. It is really, really very hard for an ordinary average woman, who is a teacher, or an accountant, or something of that kind, to survive on her own. So a lot of women are desperate to get married, just to have some kind of support. And as not all the men are that noble and generous, they very often feel no need to respect their partner, since she is financially dependent. The way they treat them is shocking for me to see. And I an infinitely grateful to my mother, who taught me the value of a good education at a very early age, and who had given me all the necessary skills that have allowed me to become a good professional, and thus be self-sufficient. If I ever have a daughter, she is going to sit at her lessons and books since six in the morning till three at night. She might hate me for that, but when she grows up she will not have to stand humiliation or even abuse just in order to survive.

However, there are also instances, when women just get married and stop doing anything at all. Their child is in the kindergarten, the husband is working all day long, and she just idles the days away, doing nothing, being of no help to her husband, and very often not even taking the trouble to be a satysfying sexual partner. Just a lazy, shapeless, bad-tempered amorphous "something" that feels that it is its right to be taken the best care of, only because several years ago it had a child, sent away from its eyes to the kindergarten as soons as possible. B-r-r! :x Too bad. My firm belief is that in any relationship each of the parties has to do his or her best to support the partner, help the partner and to be of use to each other.

 

[gopher]

Who ever came up with the idea that men have to propose marriage to women?

Just about everybody in this society calls themselves ''Christian'' and according to the Bible, women are supposed to propose marriage to men [Isaiah 4:1]. Furthermore, it is women who are supposed to initiate romantic relationships and you have the example of the Queen of Sheba doing so with King Solomon.

Why don't Christian women obey the commandments of their own Bible?

 

[SwitSof]

Furthermore, it is women who are supposed to initiate romantic relationships and you have the example of the Queen of Sheba doing so with King Solomon.

Why don't Christian women obey the commandments of their own Bible?

Despite of being Christian or not, I reckon women fear rejection more which is why the reluctance.
Plus, isn't it always said blokes enjoy the chase more?

 

[SwitSof]

My firm belief is that in any relationship each of the parties has to do his or her best to support the partner, help the partner and to be of use to each other.

Exactly.

 

[s243a]

Why date when you can go on the Internet? You can chat, look at porn, chat some more, look at more porn. All your needs filled right there...

The internet is an empty place where we congregate. I believe people come to the internet to try to fulfill what they are missing in the real world. It is like when they eat the imaginary food in Peter pan. A virtual reality cannot be a replacement for our actual reality.

 

[Cosmo]

I don't think it's something about me that's going to change . I find the whole idea of monogomy boring . Plus a person gives up a lot of the freedoms they gained from adult hood to marriage . I have a friend every single time we go out his wife calls him at least 4-5 times my god ! he even check in with her whenever he's going to be late from work (seriously one time I was driving him home from work and I get a flat and he calls to tell her he's gona be late because of my flat ) Granted he does it to her whenever she's out and about but still it's infantile.By the way having kids is extremely overrated . Why anyone would anyone want the responsibility , financial pressure and the general extra work attached to having offspring is beyond me .

P.S my parents have been married for more than 30 years and have 6 kids I still can't figure that out .

Observer ... I've read the responses here and, quite frankly, I live on your side of the question.

I was 43 the first time I fell in love. Before that, I felt exactly as you did. The idea of waking up to the same face on the pillow next to me for the rest of my life brought on suicidal ideation. Ok, maybe not quite that bad, but I couldn't imagine it.

When I met the "right one", that just changed. I'm happy now, we're working on our 6th year together and it's effortless. I couldn't imagine waking up to anyone else. The only reason it works is that living with her is exactly like living alone, except with someone who is ideal company. I didn't have to change one single thing, and neither did she. She is the first person I've ever shared time with (male or female) who I haven't had to compromise for.

I was married at 19. Nice guy, but obviously I wasn't self aware enough at that age to do something so permanent. I should have just got a new tattoo instead! The marriage lasted 13 months. Even after I "came out" in my 30s, I still couldn't imagine anything more lasting than serial monogamy -- if that. (Lots of single women on that side of the fence, Switsof!)

I am still undecided about marriage. I'm like Ann Rice ... I think there needs to be a total separation between church and state, and marriage is a religious issue. I think the state needs to take its nose totally out of the marriage business, not penalize folks who go from living together to marriage by taking away tax benefits etc., and leave it alone. Let people make their own choices.

I also question the validity of marriage. It originated as a method of exchanging women for property. "Here's my daughter, now give me all those sheep and that piece of land." Truth. Look it up. The church jumped on it and twisted it into some kind of sacred ballet, but the roots of the act are not so noble. Do I really want to be part of that? The jury is still out for me, but I do know I want the choice.

Anyway ... off the soapbox, back to topic ...

No one should ever marry someone unless they are positive that is what they want to do. And not just positive about the act of marriage, but positive about the person they are marrying. If there are any doubts, do not do it. If you expect or hope for one single thing about that person to change, take the wedding money and go on vacation instead. You'll at least end up with some souvenirs instead of paying it all to divorce lawyers.

By not bending to the peer pressure of marriage being a rite of passage (as I did), I think you are wise beyond your years Observer, and being true to yourself. When and if someone comes along that enhances your life rather than curbing your freedoms, you can re-evaluate the question. I am totally with you ... never give up a part of yourself to be in a marriage. Until you find someone who doesn't require that, play the field. It's fun!

PS ... I am SO with you on the kid thing. Yi! Not for me thanks. I admire folks who are willing to tackle that job, but they're tougher people than me. Talk about losing your freedom! No thank ya.

 

[unclepercy]

I married very young too, Cosmo, but everyone has different dynamics churning in their lives.
I had been abandoned as a baby and put up for adoption. That leaves a hole in your heart that
never completely heals. The rest of your life is spent in fear of being dumped again - or "lost"
is the way I dream it.

I swore in my heart that I would never abandon my children like my mother did. I could not do that to a child. My real mother let it eat her alive, and she died of cancer at 46. According to the stories I heard from her relatives, she had lost the will to live. I never met her. BUT, I got a wonderful adoptive family. I ever took my adopted mother to visit my biological mother's grave in Vermont. (quite a hike from Texas) She died knowing I loved her more than anything on the face of the earth.

I guess the problem with me is fierce, unwavering loyalty. My husband is not a suitable match for me, but he is a nice person sharing the same values with me. He was an extremely hard worker, and also a very handsome man. I stuck by him and my two girls, and now we are in the final phases of our marriage. I never really loved him like a romantic figure, rather as a lifelong friend and brother. I am so happy that you and Shel found happiness together, and that your relationship is fulfilling and comfortable. I will never know true love. Hubby is suffering from severe aftereffects of chemo (rheumatoid arthritis and emphysema). I feel in my heart that he will die within a few years; he is in such pain and misery. He also has lost the will to live.

No, if I had it to do over, I would never marry because I'm simply not marriage material. I would be a man, and instead of a Masters in Psych, I'd have a double PhD in chemistry and physics. I understand totally why you chose not to have children (setting aside the gay issue). Gay people do have children.
My younger daughter chose not to have any, period. She knew this from a young age, but surprisingly she is fabulous with her nieces. Children cling to her like velcro. They adore her.

My other daugther chose to marry a rich man and have two children. She is the president of everything in her midsize town. I am expecting her to be mayor after her stint as president of the national Junior League. This type of life makes her happy. Having a lavish home, a ski lodge
in Taos, NM, and a complete swimming resort in her back yard, not to mention a HUGE 4 bedroom/4 bath condo overlooking a beautiful lake -- that's what makes her happy.

My younger daughter and I will never be truly happy. It's too late for me. It was just not in the cards for me. So, I sacrificed everything for others. I am not what I wanted to me; I am what others expected me to be.

Uncle

 

[gopher]

Despite of being Christian or not, I reckon women fear rejection more which is why the reluctance.
Plus, isn't it always said blokes enjoy the chase more?

Men pretend that they like the chase more. In truth, it hurts them FAR more when they are rejected. Among themselves men always complain about being rejected. But they are too cowardly to say it out in the open.

 

[Cosmo]

My younger daughter and I will never be truly happy. It's too late for me. It was just not in the cards for me. So, I sacrificed everything for others. I am not what I wanted to me; I am what others expected me to be.

Uncle

Uncle, that makes me feel so sad. I respect your determination and success at having an intact family. That's rare. As long as the parents love and respect one another (whether or not they are in love) they can provide a good, stable, nurturing environment. My folks stayed together "for the kids" and it was a very wrong move.

I figure that as long as you're on this side of the dirt you still have a chance. Finding the "right" one can happen anytime. I'm a bit of a Pollyanna optimist -- I figure every pot has a lid and when the time is right, we connect.

On the up side, Uncle, you have had a slice of the life pie that I never will. Shell and I simply don't have enough years left to celebrate our 50th anniversary, I will never know the fulfillment of having raised a child, I never get grandbabies. I don't regret any of my choices but my choices did eliminate some things from my life. I wouldn't change a thing but I also recognize that I have missed some things along the way.

 

[SwitSof]

No, if I had it to do over, I would never marry because I'm simply not marriage material. I would be a man, and instead of a Masters in Psych, I'd have a double PhD in chemistry and physics. I understand totally why you chose not to have children (setting aside the gay issue). Gay people do have children.
My younger daughter chose not to have any, period.
[truncated]
My younger daughter and I will never be truly happy. It's too late for me. It was just not in the cards for me. So, I sacrificed everything for others. I am not what I wanted to me; I am what others expected me to be.

Uncle

UnclePercy, reading this makes me very sad too, cause it sounds as if you have lost hope for you and your younger daughter to be happy. On the other hand, I reckon it is also a cruel thing to do to raise someone's hope high only to have that hope to be crushed, so am trying to be cautious.
I don't think one's happiness should lie in someone else. In a way, it is actually easier to control things which direction you want them to be if the driver of these things is within yourself, isn't it? So I suppose for some people say marriage or partnership is simply not for them. Their happiness lies somewhere else say to make a breakthrough in their research in getting their PhD(s), even to lead their lives alone cause simply they're happy with themselves instead of with others, etc.
I guess what I'm trying to say if the things that would make you happy were within reach or within your means probably not now but even later, wouldn't that mean there is still hope?
Postgrad study let's say can do part-time or by distance learning for example.
I read in a local newspapers here in Ireland that despite of the strong Catholic influence especially among the older generation who are now in their 40s, 50s and above, recently there are more and more divorces among couples in these ages and they admitted it actually terrified them to lead life alone again for being with a partner for so many years. But then some also admitted that they feel happier to lead life alone after the divorce, to be able to do things they've wanted to do without having to compromise with the other person's wishes, etc. and they said they were being optimistic say to have another chance to start their own lives again at the age of 50s or whatever.
I'm not saying you should leave your husband now either and I think you made it clear you're not that kind of person. If I were in front of you I would bow 90 degrees to show respect (in Japanese custom, cause I lived there for a number of years), cause not everybody is willing to do that.

 

[Cosmo]

SwitSof ... Said much better than I. I do believe that our joy is always within our reach -- it just may not be what we expected and may require us to try some new things.

 

[gopher]

''No one should ever marry someone unless they are positive that is what they want to do.''


Which is precisely why women should be the ones who propose marriage as it is stated in the Bible. All too often they say 'yes' to a man's proposal because they don't want to feel guilty or because they are too embarrassed to say 'no'.

Note how often men make it a point of proposing in public where women are most vulnerable.

By contrast, whenever women propose to men it is done in private where the man can readily say 'no' without embarrassment.

When the woman proposes it is because she is fully certain that she wants it. This is why after all the years I have walked this earth, I have never seen any such marriage end in divorce.

 

[tamarin]

The reason so few marry when they're getting on is that they carry too much personal baggage. If I'm ever single again I'm certainly not looking for a project.

 

[SwitSof]

The reason so few marry when they're getting on is that they carry too much personal baggage.

You meant everybody is carrying too much personal baggage? Or is there a side?
I do agree everybody has, but it's a variety of degree I suppose. Some have a little baggage, whereas some have HUGE one. It depends on what their experiences have been in their walk of life, I reckon.

 

[tamarin]

It's like the iceberg. Far more there than meets the eye. So many people lead enormously convoluted lives. Much of it emanating from poor personal choices years ago. Baggage like history can be an engrossing study but it's often too little fun.

 

[SwitSof]

So many people lead enormously convoluted lives. Much of it emanating from poor personal choices years ago.

If I understand correctly then you meant, because of poor personal choices in the past, some people lead convoluted lives that resulted in having these personal baggage?
Hmm, so I suppose then the implication that a lot of people stay un-married cause they don't want to make the wrong choice? This is probably true. I don't think I can bear the pretense to love somebody I don't and I wouldn't want anybody to do that either.
But companionship is a good thing for some people I reckon. The feeling of being loved and the capacity to love somebody else are making these people (who would like to have companionship) happy, I reckon.

 

[Impetus]

Well, about time I threw in my two cents' worth...

I went through most of my life with Minority's attitude, although I did take some "emotional chances" along the way. Sometimes I was the "vulnerable" one where my emotions would override my sensibilities, other times being "guarded" where I kept the emotions at bay by my rational mind.

Like most people, I have my "deal-breakers" in other words things I will not compromise on - my music for one. I think it's important for people to have those and to respect those in others. If one of them grates on you, then you know you're either going to have to put up with it or look elsewhere.

Some people go in with the "I can fix that" attitude and that's a bad omen. I've had many women try to "fix" my music obsession over the years...not gonna happen.

I was pretty well resigned to the "serial monogomy" (more or less) thing as someone put it. Marriage was a concept I couldn't fathom for many of the same reasons as Minority, but deep down I knew there had to be something that others were seeing that I wasn't so I always kept a glimmer of hope.

So then in my early forties I met my wife in college (yes, the learning never stops). Luckily we were friends for a while before we became lovers because we were both "coupled" at the time.

We graduated and went our ways, keeping in touch and visiting each others' families as friends do.

A few years later, I got her a job where I work. Her husband had passed away, I was in "serial single" mode and we started going out. The "spark" that set off our friendship hit the tinderbox of availability and we were married five years ago.

As for the fear of children/dependents, that fear was something I never had. Her daughter (15 then)became my daughter (not without some growing pains), and while I made the typical compromises a parent does, I made sure those "stoppers" were respected at that level as well. In other words, I earned her love and respect over the years, I didn't buy it. That means setting boundaries and teaching the meaning of consequences but in a loving, guiding manner.

I'm proud of the kid now at 18. I see a lot of me rubbed off on her and she respects that I didn't "cut and run" when times were tough. I've always encouraged her to be self-sufficient and resourceful and not to depend upon anyone for her success and happiness.

So the moral of this tome is you can't see what's around the corner, even within your self.
Your values, feelings and beliefs can change in an instant given the right circumstances.

Dave Bowman: You see, something's going to happen. You must leave.
Heywood Floyd: What? What's going to happen?
Dave Bowman: Something wonderful.
Heywood Floyd: What?
Dave Bowman: I understand how you feel. You see, it's all very clear to me now. The whole thing. It's wonderful.
(from 2010)

Muz

 

[Cosmo]

Muz ... What an utterly lovely experience! I love a good love story. That you fell in love in your 40s is something I can really relate to. Seems that beginning relationships when we're fully mature bodes well.

By my 40s a lot of that "baggage" tamarin spoke of had been dealt with. Shell is 6 years younger than I (she was just a babe in her 30s) but she, too, had dealt with her own sack 'o crap. The result is two people who are secure in who and what they are and are ready to change the focus from "self" to "us". That would have been impossible to do while I was putting out emotional and moral fires in my life!

Anyway, thanks Muz. Always appreciate a "warm fuzzy".

 

[Vereya]

Unclepercy and Cosmo - I read your stories, and they are sad, indeed. However, there is one consolation - happiness doesn't lie entirely in family and children. A happy family is a great source of happiness and security, but there are other things in life, that can fulfull you just as well.
Like Cosmo, I got married very young, I was only 20. The marriage lasted for four years until it finally fell apart, and now I consider it to be the biggest mistake of my life. I was so disappointed by my family life, that for a long time I didn't even consider another marriage as a possible option for myself. Marrying early in life is about the silliest thing a person can do. At the age of 20 you don't know your own worth, you don't know what it takes to make a marriage work, you don't know anything yet. Right now I have a more optimistic attitude, meaning that I will be glad to get married, provided that I meet the kind of person I need to be happy. However, that kind of person will be hard to find, and as I am not willing to go for anything less, looks like I will have to be a happy independent woman for a couple of years more :smile:

 

[gopher]

Women never gave a sh*t for me and that's why I never married.