Conversion

[Pangloss]

Dexter:

I made the same deal with my dad. Nothing yet. Same thing with my uncle.

Maybe it's a gender thing.

Pangloss

 

[Dreadful Nonsense]

Well Dex ole boy, all you said there was God doesn't communicate to well with us human folk. Does God have to?...you keep debating about God from the ole Peter at the pearly gates type of stuff.....this all has been put to rest for some time now except by the ones that still need the guy in robes and all.....

I mean maybe God is so simple an aspect that no one could make a buck out of it so they created all this political hum drum....

I was reading on the net how in ancient Egyptian Mythology power shifted eventually ended up in the hands of certain priests who were making big dough cause they were in charge of the wealth Gods...lol....

God is a word that comprises all of us and all the laws of physics that keep it going.....god knows everything cause God is everything...that last sentenced is flawed for I just gave the human aspect of knowing to a concept......

just pointing Dex just pointing.....

You know Dexter i have to agree on what you write...I do..but i've just added a touch....My concept of god doesn't allow for prayer....i have to do everything...In fact God isn't there to help anyone at all....thats hog wash, something to hold ya down and control you with.....

 

[Dexter Sinister]

Once again Doc, you entertain and amuse, but with a serious undercurrent. I wish I knew you in real life, I think we'd have a fine old time over a few beers. Though really I prefer scotch, which is essentially just beer made without hops, then distilled and aged. "My concept of god doesn't allow for prayer....i have to do everything..." My view as well. If god's really out there, he's not much engaged in human lives and isn't likely to help us. I can conceive of him as some vast and impartial intelligence that views us approximately the same way we view ants. Barely; I don't really think he exists at all.

Pangloss ol' buddy, how long have you been waiting for your dad or your uncle to manifest? I didn't put a time limit on the deal I made with my mother, and in retrospect I see that I should have. Now I have to wait for the rest of my natural life, or just a little longer, before I can conclude that she was wrong or to find out that she was right. I think if she hasn't shown up as promised in 30 months, odds are she's not going to, but I don't really know what I can conclude from that.

I'm far too much aware of the deceptive power of wishful thinking to believe anything I've ever heard about the next life. My father died in 1990 and there hasn't been a week since that I haven't thought of him and wished he were still here to talk to. He always had something interesting and useful to say about everything, he was staggeringly intelligent and perceptive and well-informed, and I loved and respected him, flawed human that I came to understand he was late in his life, above all other men. I'd certainly like to believe I'll eventually be able to talk to him again, but I don't. Same with my mother, a magnificent and wonderful, but also flawed, human.

As are we all.

My parents are gone, irrevocably as far as I know, and their passing shut off two of the brightest lights in my life.

 

[china]

DocDred

there is absolutly no text of Buddha ever commenting on God the creator anywhere anytime.....where ever did you get this piece of misinformation ....What Sutra is it from?

China

The first man who came was a theist, the second man who came was an atheist, the third man who came was an agnostic. My answer had nothing to do with God, my answer had something to do with the questioner.

Read the post again Doc.It seems like you are wrong again ......as usual .

 

[Minority Observer84]

Dear me I forgot to answer my own question :
There are a few things that will make me convert to any given religion at once :

1) An Appearance by the Divine himself/herself /itself . If a creature claiming to be god appeared verified his claim and said religion x is the right religion I would convert .

2) If a religious text with undoubted authenticity contained a Specific Scientific fact , not known or speculated on at the time but that in recent times proved true . Something like "Energy cannot be created or destroyed "

3) If prayer to a specific god actually worked .

4)If Someone professing said faith performs a real life miracle that cannot be explained in any other way but by divine intervention .

5) If a religious text of undoubted authenticity made a specific prediction and that prediction came true . Something specific not the vague ramblings of john Edwards . Also said prediction cannot be self fulfilling like the one about the people of Israel (They had many places to choose from and they choose Palastine to fulfil the prophecy . )
l

 

[Unforgiven]

Yeah But this not about other people , it's about you personally what side of the Atheist / Theist divide do you fall under and what would it take for you to change your mind .

Again it falls into the definition of what God is. I don't think there is some invisible man in the sky spending eternity staring at the Earth and the creatures running around on it hopeing that some think well of him, and punishing those who don't.

But I do think there is something extra in a way of thinking that alters the way each single life unfolds. Maybe it's positive thinking or something but most often I find that doing good works makes for a personal better situation.
But that doesn't follow a bible or some teaching. If anything, it's more of personality trait I think. But is that God? I doubt it.

So I would have to say that in the conventional discription of God I am an athiest, though when it comes right down to it, I am better discribed as an agnostic because I suspect that what the simple answer is usually the closest to reality and that would seem to be that there is no way of telling at this point. Only to keep a skeptical mind about the subject matter and wait to see what happens.

What would make me change?

A logical and obvious display of undeniable proof in response to all tests I can muster.

 

[look3467]

If my prayers get answered, who answers them? If nothing is there, can nothing answer back?

Nothing must have a parents heart, for nothing loves all it's children regardless of how they behave.

The world is the spanking paddle, it takes care of us in the wrong way.

Trust in the world and you get the paddle, trust in nothing, and you get blessings.

I should know, I get them all the time.

Peace>>>AJ

 

[Minority Observer84]

If my prayers get answered, who answers them? If nothing is there, can nothing answer back?

Nothing must have a parents heart, for nothing loves all it's children regardless of how they behave.

The world is the spanking paddle, it takes care of us in the wrong way.

Trust in the world and you get the paddle, trust in nothing, and you get blessings.

I should know, I get them all the time.

Peace>>>AJ

I Won't even comment on what you said past the first line .
The fact is your prayers do not get answered countless studies have proved that praying is absolutely worthless the most recent of which i can find is http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/31/health/31pray.html?ex=1301461200&en=4acf338be4900000&ei=5088
So yes if someone or something actually answered your prayers at a higher rate than probability we wouldn't be having this conversation .

 

[Dreadful Nonsense]

DocDred

China
Read the post again Doc.It seems like you are wrong again ......as usual .

what Sutra are the words taken from?
I put to you that,this piece is a modern parable useing Buddha to make some modern style point.

There are no authentic texts where Buddha discusses God...gods such as Brahma, but not in the context of God creator....,there is a parable of Brahma and He talking about karma.
But when asked if Buddha believed in god the creator, the answer lies in the fact there are no texts on said subject....clearly you forget what you write as you write ....no worries there mate...i'll keep you honest

 

[Dreadful Nonsense]

thanks Dexter. I keep a bottle of glenlivet handy at all times and enjoy a touch of the creature from time to time.
Beer...Grolsch with fresh buttered corn...now that is a perfect manifestation of everything God.Right down to the neural transmitters firing up a big huge smile.....

I just can't give anything human at all to God desciptions...Not even a comparission of us looking at ants....but i will say that the Christian Judaic God is not unlike that...here...you lose a leg...here you drown....here have a nice piece of suger for you....winkety wink.

 

[look3467]

I Won't even comment on what you said past the first line .
The fact is your prayers do not get answered countless studies have proved that praying is absolutely worthless the most recent of which i can find is http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/31/health/31pray.html?ex=1301461200&en=4acf338be4900000&ei=5088
So yes if someone or something actually answered your prayers at a higher rate than probability we wouldn't be having this conversation .

But Doc, science did not prove me wrong, because I genuily got my prayer answered about 3 weeks ago. Prior to that, my prayers were again answered, time and time again.

There is no answer from science to my spiritual negotiations with God, but there is answers, if we care to believe them about Gods dealings with the sciences.
Peace>>>AJ

 

[Dexter Sinister]

... my prayers were again answered, time and time again.

I think what's happening is more likely a combination of selective thinking, confirmation bias, and communal reinforcement, but I'd be interested in some examples of what you prayed for, how the prayer was answered, and how you can be sure that what happened would not have happened if you hadn't prayed. You're asking us to believe that god routinely intercedes in the world in response to your entreaties, in effect that your life is full of miraculous suspensions of the normal order of things. I hardly need to tell you that I don't believe you.

 

[Curiosity]

For those who have definite opinions - religious or otherwise - why is it we feel the need to prove it to others what we believe.

I have no wish to share anything whether to try to convince another that my belief is positive, or negatively - to have to defend my belief.

It is mine - I need no confirmations. Life itself is enough proof there is a reason.

Dexter

I would love to witness you and Doc having a chat - I'd even buy the scotch !

 

[jimmoyer]

For those who have definite opinions - religious or otherwise - why is it we feel the need to prove it to others what we believe.

I have no wish to share anything whether to try to convince another that my belief is positive, or negatively - to have to defend my belief.

It is mine - I need no confirmations. Life itself is enough proof there is a reason.

-------------------------------------Curiosity--------------------------------------------------------------------

I kinda agree with you. Pushiness, evangelizing, converting has its negatives. Which is why the sophocles method of leading questions was devised, or why maybe comedy has a better way of evangelizing than straight fire and brimstone preaching,

But...

By pushing our thoughts on others we do ourselves a favor by making our thoughts vulnerable to attacks by others and if they withstand that vetting test, we all may have learned something.

It's a dance we feel compelled to do, otherwise we would be smug creatures living inside ourselves never coming out to play, never showing our thoughts.

Salesmen say the worst objection of the buyer is the hidden objection, the unspoken objection.

Also, proselytizing our beliefs on others is kin to whistling in the dark in a cemetery. We need to sound it out aloud. The Abyss awaits, silently largely. We know it's there.

 

[karrie]

a gun pointing to my head would turn me into a religious person, not a real one though.

Religions separate people. Take a look at India and Pakistan, and the former Yugoslavia.

I hear this in the forum all the time, but, I've found that DIFFERENCES are what seperate people. Humanity will seize on any opportunity/excuse to wreak havoc on itself. Race, country, language, religion... it doesn't seem to really truly matter what the difference is, so long as we get to declare our hatred, our superiority, and kill one another.

 

[karrie]

Dear me I forgot to answer my own question :
There are a few things that will make me convert to any given religion at once :

1) An Appearance by the Divine himself/herself /itself . If a creature claiming to be god appeared verified his claim and said religion x is the right religion I would convert .

2) If a religious text with undoubted authenticity contained a Specific Scientific fact , not known or speculated on at the time but that in recent times proved true . Something like "Energy cannot be created or destroyed "

3) If prayer to a specific god actually worked .

4)If Someone professing said faith performs a real life miracle that cannot be explained in any other way but by divine intervention .

5) If a religious text of undoubted authenticity made a specific prediction and that prediction came true . Something specific not the vague ramblings of john Edwards . Also said prediction cannot be self fulfilling like the one about the people of Israel (They had many places to choose from and they choose Palastine to fulfil the prophecy . )
l

Wow. I'm a Catholic, and all these things you've written are things that would drive a skeptical nail into my belief, and while they wouldn't end my spirituality, I'd likely avoid the church after these occurences.

Weird that what you find to be an answer, I see to be a hypocritical show.

 

[look3467]

I think what's happening is more likely a combination of selective thinking, confirmation bias, and communal reinforcement, but I'd be interested in some examples of what you prayed for, how the prayer was answered, and how you can be sure that what happened would not have happened if you hadn't prayed. You're asking us to believe that god routinely intercedes in the world in response to your entreaties, in effect that your life is full of miraculous suspensions of the normal order of things. I hardly need to tell you that I don't believe you.

It may sound like it is all a coincidence and many wish to think that it is.
I will tell you of a few instances since you asked.
I had been searching for the real truth about God, because in my heart I felt that those to whom God was not available too, were worthy of hell, when after all, what fault would they have.
The standard Christian answer was, well God will have mercy upon whom He will have mercy. That is all well and good, but did not answer my question as asked.
I acquired a set of books, about 21 volumes titled Magic, Myth and Man.
In this volumes, one could find every conceivable religious belief detailed in an objective manner.
I studied them in an effort to find a common thread amongst all of them.

I prayed that God would reveal to me what is the truth. In the process of studying, I came across this website, called Yahweh's truth. Well, I looked into it as well, and learned quite a bit about religious history from Adam to today's religious practices.
This site was a Christian Jewish site that said that all people to be saved ended in 1990.
Well, guess what, I didn't go for that either, but still, I learned what I needed to get to my present understanding.
I again entreated God to please indicate to me that what I had just learned was the knowledge I was to put into practice. By the way, it required I observe the Sabbath as the Jewish folks do.
I tried it, and even closed my store on Saturday's to comply.
Wasn't working out.
The thought came to me to give God something of substance as an indicator of a direct answer from Him as to what direction I should take.
I had a box truck with a lift that the transmission was out on. So I said to God, if you find a buyer for me within a few weeks, I will change course from were I was going and continue seeking.
Well, the very next day, a man walked in with credit card in hand and said, I want to buy that truck.
(I had a for sale sign on is for quite some while but wasn't getting any bites)
That was my answer sooner than what I expected.

The next thing I am doing is searching and God leads me to another web site. I click on it and am astounded at what I read. By all standards, any Christian believer would have rejected it.

I was compelled to continue to read and learn.
There I found the answers to all my questions since all the contents of that website had to do only with what contained in the bible.
I am familiar with the contents of the bible because it has been my quest to learn all I could about God.
So, naturally, I find this website very helpful and to this present day, MY BELIEVES HAVE BEEN ENRICHED.
Faith in God is no small thing, but is all that I am.

Another instance is I got the thought of selling my business and needed confirmation was coupled with the sell of the truck.
Both instances were going on at the same time.
Within 3 months, I sold the place without advertising it. (Sell by owner)

I rented another place which to my amazement, thought,(excuse my language)"What the hell am I thinking, this place is bad for business". But I trusted that God had a hand in it.
Well, been there 7 days a week for 6 months, I asked God, "you need to send somebody to buy me out."
Guess what, within 3 weeks, this gentleman came and bought me out. (No fleece this time.) Just faith that God would work in my behalf.

The very best thing to have gotten answered had to do with my marriage.
Without giving details about my marriage conditions, suffice it to say that it was falling apart.

I had my doubts that my wife's mind would change. I prayed that God would intercede and cause my wife's mind to change in my favor.

The sell of the inventory was the beginning of the change, the next thing that happened (incident) caused my wife to completely turn/repent/change her mind in my favor.

Coincidence? Not to me! God is happy to oblige me at every turn, for I am His child and He is thinking about my best at all times.
I love Him more than I can explain, and it gives me strength to love those who are not able to return love back.
I speak to all of you with love and compassion as God gives me to speak.

I've learned through all of this, that the only hell there is is in this world. That death of the flesh is but an end of the flesh, but life of the soul continues on to eternal living, since God in Jesus reconciled us all back to Him in the body sacrifice of Jesus.

It wasnt and it is not our fault we are existing in the flesh, not by choice, but His.
He is at fault, but He also made a way for our souls to be forever with Him.

Many can not comprehend it, and can not understand it, for it is mystery to be searched out.

I searched it out and found the answer, no longer a mystery.

Christianity is on the right direction, but it is as yet a child going through trials and errors.
Many mistakes made, bad decisions and worldly lusts mixed into the mix.
But, slowly it has been progressing towards a mature state of spirituality.

Time will tell.

Peace>>>AJ

 

[look3467]

For those who have definite opinions - religious or otherwise - why is it we feel the need to prove it to others what we believe.

I have no wish to share anything whether to try to convince another that my belief is positive, or negatively - to have to defend my belief.

It is mine - I need no confirmations. Life itself is enough proof there is a reason.

Dexter

I would love to witness you and Doc having a chat - I'd even buy the scotch !

I share what I believe just as you share what you believe.
Otherwise, neither you or I would be on this forum discussing this topic.

Peace>>>AJ

 

[Dreadful Nonsense]

Aj i can't begin to tell you how happy i am for you

 

[Minority Observer84]

I hear this in the forum all the time, but, I've found that DIFFERENCES are what seperate people. Humanity will seize on any opportunity/excuse to wreak havoc on itself. Race, country, language, religion... it doesn't seem to really truly matter what the difference is, so long as we get to declare our hatred, our superiority, and kill one another.

That may be true but there is still no arguing that religion is one of the most divisive things we've ever invented .