Creation or Evolution?

[Unforgiven]

OK Dexter. Let's call nature God. Let's say God exists only in the sense that God is everything.

Can you really logically and convincingly get to conclusions such as that ''god isn't an individual entity, isn't intelligent''?

But that would mean that God is me. I'm pretty sure I'm not God, but you can bow down if you like.

Is the Bible the word of God or is it a book?
If it is the word of god then we can go from there. Disprove that and you have a viable reason that there is no such thing as God. If it is just a book, then would that make God a creation of man instead of the other way around?

 

[Dreadful Nonsense]

OK Dexter. Let's call nature God. Let's say God exists only in the sense that God is everything.

Can you really logically and convincingly get to conclusions such as that ''god isn't an individual entity, isn't intelligent''?

Lets take gravity...We know that mass produces force onto other mass which we call gravity...or something like that, i'm not a scientist but have an incling as to what gravity is....I can't see or feel gravity with my senses...I can feel the effects of gravity though, but thats not the same.

When i cut myself i heal. I don't do it intentionally i just heal.

I catch a flu...i get sick...my body produces anti bodies and kills the flu...it's called my auto imune system....another thing one can't hold or fell with your senses......it's there ..we can now even manipulate it....

hey we can manipulate gravity too.....planes falling quickly gives a zero gravity effect on the people inside.......still can't buy any though....


God is a word....some say the bible is the word of God.....ooops....


In Vedic Tradition there are three Gods that created everything together.

Shive>death
Brahma>Life
Vishnu>the power to hold it all togetherie; atoms and molecules ...

When you see the pictures of Shiva and Vishnu and Brahma coming out of the navel of Vishnu , these are all artist impressions. Any Hindu teenager will tell you that.


But they throw us into an abstract mode of thinking to aid us in realising what God is......

For me...
God is all of us and everything that it is. I can focus on certain Laws of Science and Nature and isolate an aspect of God in something other than the sundry everyday mundane.

 

[look3467]

But don't you see that that doesn't really explain anything? What is the nature of this god? Where did he come from? Exactly what did he do, and how did he do it?>>>Dexter

In short: the nature of God is demonstrated in Jesus. Learning all about Him is to find out who and what God is.

Where did He come from is one that can only be answered when we get there.

Exactly what did he do, and how did he do it>>> Dexter

In order to answer these last 2 questions, one must first have a desire to find it out.

After that is up to God to deliver revelations of understanding.

All that is in the bible is not necessarily literal rendering, but in many ways, stories, similitudes and real life happenings, that God uses to show, demonstrate spiritual truths.

Got to remember that God is a spiritual being, and can only be understood on spiritual terms.

I have learned to understand the significance of the spiritual truth in the 7-day creation story, the Adam and Eve story, the significance of the tree of knowledge, the tree of life and many other words and phrases that by most folks are taken literally.

Forgiveness is granted where there is no understanding as far as faith towards God is concerned, but to do that, which is not good to our fellow human beings, will meet with consequences of our own makings.

So if there is no belief in God, but good works meted out, in deeds and kindness towards our fellow human beings as proclaimed by many un-believers, which is acceptable to God.

Our works are judged daily and if found wanting, consequences are only issued while yet in the flesh, for after death, there is no more works and no more consequences, for the job of salvation of the soul, has already been done, 2,000 years ago to include all souls who were held in a holding pen, (Hell) .

This is called the re-creation of the spiritual world by God in Jesus for the salvation of all mankind.

If we could find proof of one day taken out of time, we could prove the very existence of God physically to our surprise.
This day taken out of time is what split the former from the latter worlds of creation.

What was then the state of the soul of mankind was brought to an end so that the new state of mankind’s condition could be re-established.

The 7-day creation story plus many other stories in the bible are used in explanation of that one terrible day, a day spoken about as not included amongst the rest of the days, the weeks and the years.

That day belonged to Jesus, for He alone was the bearer of the burden for humanities souls, salvation.

He, in human form, as we, endured in every point the trials, temptations of human nature, and overcame them all in perfection, thus enabling His body to be used as a vehicle of perfection for all souls to board in the new creation.

He a human, and on that day, became as God, in whose body the fate of the world rested, paid the price of our redemption.

Far fetched story? Only you all can judge for yourselves, as per your faith.

God is a loving God, not as portrayed by mankind, but by His own demonstration in Jesus.

If you want to know who God is, look at Jesus.

Peace>>>AJ

 

[look3467]

Is the Bible the word of God or is it a book?
If it is the word of god then we can go from there. Disprove that and you have a viable reason that there is no such thing as God. If it is just a book, then would that make God a creation of man instead of the other way around?>>> Unforgiven

Again, what you are asking is physical proof of the existence of God if to say, “true, it equates and calculable.”

But there lies the problem; it is not a physical equation, but a spiritual one that works solely in the spiritual realm.

Faith is the go-be-twin the two natures, of which if faith is exercised in the nature of God, the benefits are endless.

What else can I say, but that it works for me and I, undyingly are faithful, grateful and have a loving relationship with Him.

I speak to you all as if He was speaking in love, compassion and allot of forgiveness.

If this testimony is as strong as it sounds, than by-golly, it might just work for someone else too!
Does this testimony not speak of what God is, how He loves as voiced by me?

Truly all the goodness of God is been demonstrated here and now; is it not worth considering?


Peace>>>AJ

 

[Dreadful Nonsense]

In short: the nature of God is demonstrated in Jesus. Learning all about Him is to find out who and what God is.
[/COLOR]

see...
I gotta get out more.....what was i thinking...

 

[Dexter Sinister]

OK Dexter. Let's call nature God. Let's say God exists only in the sense that God is everything.

Can you really logically and convincingly get to conclusions such as that ''god isn't an individual entity, isn't intelligent''?

Sure, you pretty much did it yourself. If god is everything that exists, clearly he's not an individual entity in the sense most religious people understand the term, he becomes an individual only in the same sense that by definition there's only one universe, because the universe too is defined as everything. That's such a broad definition of god as to be meaningless in any theological sense. And there's no reason to think the universe itself is intelligent. It's not showing any signs of it.

 

[Dexter Sinister]

Soooooooo....you don't believe in God. Fine it's a free country. If you are going to rise to the occasion to refute God the creator in a thread about creation shouldn't you at least have a viable alternative?

Strictly speaking, creation and evolution are separate subjects. Evolution's not about how life started, it's about what happened after it got started. And there is a viable alternative to divine creation, the naturalistic explanations science provides. Saying "God did it" is neither a useful nor a necessary hypothesis as an explanation of anything, it leaves us knowing just as little as we did before, provides no further insight, and offers no guide for continuing investigation. It's the end of the research program on how nature works.

 

[Minority Observer84]

Feelings being hurt pfffffffft...forget that ok . Monority Observer I welcome your input.
I aggre with your above post ...Even your use of the word infects as applied to wrong view being wielded by those that govern us.

but please take note at my point towards attacking a Christian fundamentalist's belief system in a forum and offering only hollow words as something that the Christian should follow. i'm not refering to you but to Unforgiven.He was charging the christian and asking him to give up his belief in God to live in the real and the now...yeah right thats a clear option ...Not to mention it has nothing to do with creation/evolution


now you come up a with a pasta parody and thats all fun and fine and makes a point.

But please bear with me for a second.....
I don't follow Christian thought.
I do praise their good works of charity.
Their belief system inspires love and compassion and a decent way of living.

One should not forget what effect this religon has on the billion people practising it.

Please don't blame the corruption on the belief system. The system itself requires one to be honest and have a right livelyhood and treat people with decency and one should offer help when the opportunity affords itself....
this is what i shall always protect and put my 2 cents in when someone wishes to troll another in a forum.

Now reading your posts that follow could you make it clear to me , in your own words, the nature of our existance and how it came into being.
Not just scientific aspects like energy and mass equations but just how it got started. If you are going to argue in a thread about creation or evolution and dismiss the God creationists theory without giving an alternative , it irks me ...ok ...is that ok.....

that being said minority observer i do aggree with what you said in the above post....

I stand corrected on my use of the word infect , it's loaded and applies a conclusion that I have no proof .
The three great monotheistic religions have shed more blood between the three of them than anything else has in history I could write a book about this but i'll just refer you to the Bible and the Koran as evidence that they are all far more violent than good . Also religion deals in absolutes , while human morality evolves religious morality remains constant dealing in absolutes of good and evil . Religion also implies that the only reason to do good is in anticipation of reward and the only reason not to do evil is fear .
The nature of our existence ?
First of all I want to state that even if I did not have an answer for this (and I do not have a conclusive one) it does not immediately mean that god jumps in to fill the gap ,just because something provides a conclusion ( And the idea of god does not it furthers the regress something theists get out of by invoking the spiritual realm ) does not mean it;s an answer (this old maxim comes to mind : Not every reply is an answer but every answer is a reply) . Let me illustrate with an example : As you well know there is no statute of limitations on murder in the US(In other words a murder will be investigated and processed regardless of the amount of time since the crime) Now if while clearing the foundation of a building workers located a body murdered 50 years ago what do we do ? . Assume that the body is unidentified , no motive can be concluded and no evidence exists . Strictly theoretically speaking anyone slightly older than 50 in the city is a is a suspect , also anyone in the country , or world , also anyone currently dead who was around then is a suspect too . Your sense of justice demands an answer what do you do ? The logical thing to do is to suspend any judgment until further evidence comes to light , it would be crazy to charge the first person you see because he happens to provide an explanation for the crime . Just like it's equally insane to argue ignorance of the universe as a reason to believe in creation.
Now as for your answer :
The nature of our being is strictly physical , there is no evidence to assume any other kind of existence just to apease our human desire for immortality . Now as for the question of how we came to be , there are multiple cosmological theories like the multiverse , big crunch , infinite expansion or daughter universe theory . Sadly we have no conclusive proof to conclude anyone of them as fact (Searching for these terms online -provided you use good sources- will give you a far better explanation than I can cosmology is not my field of study and neither is theoretical physics , sorry)
As for how it came to being it's a mathematical , Astronomers estimate that there are betwen 30-1 billion planets in our galaxy (estimated using the number of observable stars and matter tendency )
further more they estimate that there are 1 billion galaxies in out universe . Regardless of how small the odds of organic life coming from non life are mathematically its possible and we know it;s possible because we exist from that initial reaction natural selection takes place and with time our present earth .

 

[Minority Observer84]

Whatever gave you that idea? It's true that we've been able to insulate ourselves from a lot of the usual forces of natural selection--primarily predation, certain injuries and diseases, and infant mortality--with our technologies, but don't kid yourself into thinking there are no longer any selection pressures on homo sapiens. Disease organisms, for instance, are evolving in lockstep with our preventive technologies, and people still die, even in the most technologically advanced nations, of infections. I suggest you pick up a fascinating little book called Survival of the Sickest by Dr. Sharon Moalem and Jonathon Prince for a detailed examination of that kind of idea.

Again I've made the mistake of drawing a conclusion based on an observation because it provides an answer . I stand corrected and I appreciate the book reference dex I will look for it

 

[Minority Observer84]

Einstein never said any such thing as far as I know, and I've read most of what he wrote. He did make reference to sharing Spinoza's view of god, and Spinoza quite explicitly identified god with nature, but in the usual way people understand the term god, that's not a god at all, it's just the sum of all that exists. You can of course define the word 'god' any way you like for the purposes of argument, but defining it that way destroys most of the debate. Unless the extreme solopsist position is true (highly doubtful), there's no question that nature exists, there is a reality that exists regardless of our perceptions of it, and if you call that god, well, fine, but it means god isn't an individual entity, isn't intelligent, and isn't actively running anything, he's just the physical laws that describe what happens. That's a long way from what most people mean when they use the word.

Exactly what I stated , theists often point to the quotation of Einstein's conclusion that there must be a god as proof of physics advocating god . You made my point in this post he did not mean a creative intelligence .

 

[Minority Observer84]

OK Dexter. Let's call nature God. Let's say God exists only in the sense that God is everything.

Can you really logically and convincingly get to conclusions such as that ''god isn't an individual entity, isn't intelligent''?

Yes Because Intelligence is complex and complexity requires a process to create it , natural selection answers this regress for humanity but as far as god existing the regress is exponential to how complex you think your god is the more complex the more complex the process that created his intelligence has to be .

 

[s_lone]

Sure, you pretty much did it yourself. If god is everything that exists, clearly he's not an individual entity in the sense most religious people understand the term, he becomes an individual only in the same sense that by definition there's only one universe, because the universe too is defined as everything. That's such a broad definition of god as to be meaningless in any theological sense. And there's no reason to think the universe itself is intelligent. It's not showing any signs of it.

Let me elaborate my questions...

Dexter Sinister's body is made out of many many things... Mostly water... lots of carbon and a bunch of other stuff too... all that matter is grouped up in various structural wholes... Your bone structure, your stomach, your brain and nervous system etc,

What I'm saying is that in the case of the man who calls himself Dexter Sinister in this forum, the whole is greater than the sum of its parts. Your body and mind, as a coherent WHOLE, is made out of many many ''sub-wholes'. Yet, despite your fragmented nature, you will say without a doubt that you are an individual entity. Your individuality is only possible because of the greater structural frame that binds all your body parts together.

What about the universe as a whole? Is the universe as a whole greater than the sum of its parts? Does the universe have an ultimate binding structural reality that gives its 'wholeness' something more that its fragmented reality doesn't have? How can you be so sure that the universe as a whole has no intelligence whatsoever? Sure, you can say it's not showing any signs of it but that's rather subjective isn't it? Who are WE to say that we as human beings are intelligent, and the universe is not? How could you even know such a thing?

 

[s_lone]

Yes Because Intelligence is complex and complexity requires a process to create it , natural selection answers this regress for humanity but as far as god existing the regress is exponential to how complex you think your god is the more complex the more complex the process that created his intelligence has to be .

I agree intelligence is complex. Without a doubt, if the universe was to be intelligent, the amount of complexity needed for this intelligence would be exponential. But that complexity is there present in the whole universe. I'm not saying the Universe is intelligent. I'm saying we simply cannot know.

 

[Dreadful Nonsense]

Just wondering about Slone's post.....when that body dies what happens to the 27grams of wieght that leaves all of them...precisly the same amount of wieght and always the same....any ideas on what it is and why?:roll:

i might be wrong on the 20 something amount but you get me drift..

might be 21 23...it's a constant though

 

[s_lone]

Just wondering about Slone's post.....when that body dies what happens to the 27grams of wieght that leaves all of them...precisly the same amount of wieght and always the same....any ideas on what it is and why?:roll:

i might be wrong on the 20 something amount but you get me drift..

might be 21 23...it's a constant though

21 grams... That's the supposed weight of the soul... The idea comes from experiments done by some dude at the beginning of the 20th century but his experiments haven't got much scientific merit if it has any I believe...

I don't know if further experiments were done on the subject...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duncan_MacDougall_(doctor)

 

[Dreadful Nonsense]

21 grams... That's the supposed weight of the soul... The idea comes from experiments done by some dude at the beginning of the 20th century but his experiments haven't got much scientific merit if it has any I believe...

I don't know if further experiments were done on the subject...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duncan_MacDougall_(doctor)

oki doki..hardrive corruption....Slone makes correction possible in doc's noggin.....thanks slone and offers pre armpit butter tart....

man how much of this stuff is firing away here in me noggin making me post like as if i was a troll or something:roll:

I think my next banning i'm going to refer to this very thread as proof it's not my fault:canada:

 

[look3467]

Let me elaborate my questions...

Dexter Sinister's body is made out of many many things... Mostly water... lots of carbon and a bunch of other stuff too... all that matter is grouped up in various structural wholes... Your bone structure, your stomach, your brain and nervous system etc,

What I'm saying is that in the case of the man who calls himself Dexter Sinister in this forum, the whole is greater than the sum of its parts. Your body and mind, as a coherent WHOLE, is made out of many many ''sub-wholes'. Yet, despite your fragmented nature, you will say without a doubt that you are an individual entity. Your individuality is only possible because of the greater structural frame that binds all your body parts together.

What about the universe as a whole? Is the universe as a whole greater than the sum of its parts? Does the universe have an ultimate binding structural reality that gives its 'wholeness' something more that its fragmented reality doesn't have? How can you be so sure that the universe as a whole has no intelligence whatsoever? Sure, you can say it's not showing any signs of it but that's rather subjective isn't it? Who are WE to say that we as human beings are intelligent, and the universe is not? How could you even know such a thing?

I enjoyed this post in that it fits perfectly into what the bible calls the new creation, the body of Christ.
Christ being as the bible states the beginning, the present and the future of all that there is, is the intelligences that supports the universe in total.
The sum of all it's parts is God, and the new name by which all mankind can be part of, in "one body"is Jesus Christ.

Humanity is in itself (entity) is like as God with ability to rule over it's own desires.

But as a part of the whole, is subject to the whole, that being the creator God.

My thoughts.

Peace>>>AJ

 

[s_lone]

I enjoyed this post in that it fits perfectly into what the bible calls the new creation, the body of Christ.
Christ being as the bible states the beginning, the present and the future of all that there is, is the intelligences that supports the universe in total.
The sum of all it's parts is God, and the new name by which all mankind can be part of, in "one body"is Jesus Christ.

Humanity is in itself (entity) is like as God with ability to rule over it's own desires.

But as a part of the whole, is subject to the whole, that being the creator God.

My thoughts.

Peace>>>AJ

As long as you keep my views distinct from your views I'm happy you enjoyed my post... There was absloutely no religious undertone in my post... purely philosophical... But it's interesting to see a distinctively Christian perspective.

 

[Dreadful Nonsense]

I enjoyed this post in that it fits perfectly into what the bible calls the new creation, the body of Christ.
Christ being as the bible states the beginning, the present and the future of all that there is, is the intelligences that supports the universe in total.
The sum of all it's parts is God, and the new name by which all mankind can be part of, in "one body"is Jesus Christ.

Humanity is in itself (entity) is like as God with ability to rule over it's own desires.

But as a part of the whole, is subject to the whole, that being the creator God.
G
My thoughts.

Peace>>>AJ

I love this post..it's Holy Alchemy....
I honestly believe that the next step in our evolution is what you describe here.....
thanks AJ
God Bless you lad and God Speed

 

[Dexter Sinister]

What I'm saying is that in the case of the man who calls himself Dexter Sinister in this forum, the whole is greater than the sum of its parts.

No argument there, though I've never really seen the point of that observation. It's trivially true of anything that has parts. The parts interact in ways they could not if they weren't assembled into a whole, so other properties of the whole emerge that aren't properties of any of the parts.

Is the universe as a whole greater than the sum of its parts?

Sure; see above.

Does the universe have an ultimate binding structural reality that gives its 'wholeness' something more that its fragmented reality doesn't have?

I have no idea what that sentence means.

How can you be so sure that the universe as a whole has no intelligence whatsoever? Sure, you can say it's not showing any signs of it but that's rather subjective isn't it? Who are WE to say that we as human beings are intelligent, and the universe is not? How could you even know such a thing?

I don't, and that's not what I said. I said there's no reason to think the universe is intelligent, and it's not showing any signs of it. It might be intelligent on some level we can't begin to guess at, but I strongly doubt that. I have to go with the evidence we have available, and cosmology has never found any evidence that would suggest there's an intelligence at work. If anybody has some, I'd like to see it. The only arguments I've ever seen for it amount to nothing more than that specious old "God of the Gaps" argument.